Road legal track cars maybe a thing of the past... new mot rules

[bloke]

NOt nowadays, if it was fitted from the factory it must be present and working correctly, unless its a competition car.

If an ABS or ESC system has been intentionally rendered inoperative,the whole system must be removed. However, this does not apply to sensor rings or other ABS components which are an integral part of another component e.g. brake disc or driveshaft.

afik this is still current, not sure if it will change this year but not read anything that mentions it.

 

[Greeny.]

Mine always shows as “various modifications made to car but all to mot standards”. The place I use told me as long as it had a cage they were happy to pass it.

 

[DannyR]

NOt nowadays, if it was fitted from the factory it must be present and working correctly, unless its a competition car.

Decats are total b****cks, people removed them because Max Power said it was worth 5bhp. The average OEM cat is not significantly restrictive at standard power. I refitted one to my track car when I bought it and left it there, it made no difference apart from the fact it's actually legal now.

As for specs for rally cars, having a competition logbook sorts most queries. Serious trackday cars with a cage will be fine in most cases and it prevents the road cars with buckets, half a set of airbags and diabled ABS being on the road, which can only be a good thing IMHO.

Removing a cat from a turbo car can see a lot bigger gains than 5bhp!

 

[AlanWak]

Is this for real? I can understand the rationale for road cars, but using such terminology as "Rally Car" is extremely vague and imprecise. How is "boy racer" defined? The Regulations should define what constitutes a Competition/Modified Car.

I can't see why "Rally Car" is being "defined". It's not only Stage Rallies which use the public highway between Stages - I'm out on the Bath Festival Targa Rally this Saturday where we'll be using the public highway between Tests. I also regularly only ever use the Public Highway on some Rallies, with no Stages or Tests. There's a much woider spectrum of "Rally Cars" which use the public highway and need an MOT and don't meet the criteria mentioned.

How about Hillclimb/Sprint cars which use the public highway? Autosolo cars have to be driven to events. Trials cars often use the public highway in between sections. The list continues ... They're all Competition Cars used on the public highway and therefore need an MOT (unless over 40 years old in May).

Cages are NOT mandatory for all Rally Cars, only Stage Rally cars. Road Rally Cars MUST have rear seats and trim. Underbody protection isn't required on all Rally Cars. The words used to try to define a Rally Car are therefore incorrect.

Seems like somebody who has no idea about the wide range of Rallies has had a stab at writing something from watching a little WRC on TV! They should have consulted the MSA. Has anybody on here asked the MSA any questions in this area?

The guidance is therefore VERY misleading - not all Rally Cars have cages, buckets, harnesses, etc. In fact turn up at a Road Rally without rear seats/trim and you won't get through Scrutineering.

It's also not just a matter of obtaining a Stage Rally Log Book for your track car - you'll also need a plumbed in extinguisher, in date seats and harnesses, window film, fuel sampling, ... There are also now additional requirements for roll cages and emphasis on mounting of those cages - how many old cages would be of a suitable standard to obtain a Stage Rally Log Book today, and are they mounted correctly with the right mounting plates/reinforcement?

There MUST be more in the VOSA manual to define a Competition/Modified Car, which is far better than just using "Rally Car". I can't see why it's necessary to try to define what a "Rally Car" is if other areas in the VOSA manual adequately define a Competion/Modified Car. With such vague "information" I can see all sorts of weird and wonderful interpretations by Testers, which is never good.

However I can provide evidence that all my cars have been used in Rallies of different forms, therefore they MUST all be Rally Cars!

 

[alistairolsen]

If an ABS or ESC system has been intentionally rendered inoperative,the whole system must be removed. However, this does not apply to sensor rings or other ABS components which are an integral part of another component e.g. brake disc or driveshaft.

afik this is still current, not sure if it will change this year but not read anything that mentions it.

It must have been one of the drafts in the last round then, but there was definitely discussion of not passing cars with ABS removed where it was originally fitted, i.e. a clio cup is fine, but a 172 with ABS removed wouldnt be. As you say though, it's not in the current manual.

Interestingly in the draft manual for this year it says:
"It is not permissible to remove
or disable the ABS from a vehicle
first used on or after 1 January 2010"

Which I guess means they realised the records available werent actually good enough to determine what cars had or did not have ABS prior to that date.

Removing a cat from a turbo car can see a lot bigger gains than 5bhp!

Removing just the cat, in new condition? Without an exhaust, map, downpipe etc?

The point is that the "decat" was a max power era mod, and the gains were wildly over hyped. Even now you see people with trackday 172s wearing their decat pipe or hooky MOT tester like a badge of honour and its all b****cks, just leave it fitted and ignore.

On a big power turbo car, fair enough, but TBH, with most turbo cars, you'll be buying an exhaust and a map anyway and most likely a larger downpipe, so just upgrade the CAT as well.

Is this for real?

Totally agree that the wording is very open ended, it was however snuck in at the very last minute after a LOT of lobbying by the rally world because without it, the new rules would effectively have made all that you describe illegal.

It's annoying that you can't argue black and white what is and isnt acceptable, however I'm still of the opinion that if it stops folk MOTing otherwise standard "track cars" with defective ABS, airbags etc then it's a positive thing, they just need to sort out the exemptions.

 

[AlanWak]

BTW I've just found the quote regarding the specification of a "Rally Car", It's from 19th May 2014 so nothing new. All my cars have gone through without air bags since then. However they have all had cats. My biggest issue with cats is they fall apart internally after a few good hits and block the exhaust.

Has anything changed recently in the MOT, or about to change?

https://mattersoftesting.blog.gov.uk/when-is-a-modified-vehicle-a-rally-car/

 

[alistairolsen]

BTW I've just found the quote regarding the specification of a "Rally Car", It's from 19th May 2014 so nothing new. All my cars have gone through without air bags since then. However they have all had cats. My biggest issue with cats is they fall apart internally after a few good hits and block the exhaust.

Has anything changed recently in the MOT, or about to change?

https://mattersoftesting.blog.gov.uk/when-is-a-modified-vehicle-a-rally-car/

Upcoming draft version from May this year mate
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mot-inspection-manual-for-class-3-4-5-and-7-vehicles

 

[...]

Have things changed or are now being enforced from May 20th -YES
Define a competition car -MSA LOG BOOK

Its going to become fairly black and white and make life easier for testers . My own mot station who have known me for years and have tested everything from my competition cars to modified track cars to my standard ones.

Good news for me is that legally my porsche from next year does not need an MOT or TAX , so one of the new rules is in my favour.

Its been like this in mainland europe for a long time , and its very strict in places like germany , however when there our cars had mods and passed the TUV test , you are just going to have to man up and comply or fail .

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

If it becomes an issue, can't the MSA simply issue CCLBs for more disciplines? Admittedly it could come with a cost but, given that most of these categories don't require much in the way of equipment (or anything in some cases), its effectively just a box-ticking exercise.

As @harvsurrey says, and I said before, we have it so easy compared to some other countries. It's no great surprise that things are getting more strict.

 

[...]

If it becomes an issue, can't the MSA simply issue CCLBs for more disciplines? Admittedly it could come with a cost but, given that most of these categories don't require much in the way of equipment (or anything in some cases), its effectively just a box-ticking exercise.

As @harvsurrey says, and I said before, we have it so easy compared to some other countries. It's no great surprise that things are getting more strict.

I have been through it here and abroad , people say it wont happen blah blah , friendly mot tester etc etc .

It has happened here before , kit car registration took a massive shake up 10 or so years ago when the sva test first came out.

I can say it was a good thing and no doubt saved a few lives.

Its getting strict , if you want to mod cars you will just have to do what euro does and do it within the rules.

I mean clearly an airbag , seatbelt , or abs never saved a life so who needs em ?

Right ??

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[JP83]

So does this mean that a stripped out track car, which has had the airbags removed, will now no longer pass? That kinda sucks!

 

[McGherkin]

It wasn’t supposed to pass in the first place. The rally clause has been in for a while - testers are just rather loose with their definition of rally cars.

 

[JP83]

So it's either make sure my tester is a friendly type, or pass my towing test.

 

[alistairolsen]

It has happened here before , kit car registration took a massive shake up 10 or so years ago when the sva test first came out.

20 :tonguewink:

The issue is that if people behaved responsibly there would be no need to regulation, but many dont, so regulations are tightened at the inconvenience of those who have always tried to do things properly.

So does this mean that a stripped out track car, which has had the airbags removed, will now no longer pass? That kinda sucks!

It shouldnt pass now as said.

I put mine through and it gets recorded as a "competition car" as it has buckets, harnesses, cage etc.
The issue is that there are fairly fundamental safety considerations with half measures. Manufacturers give you seatbelts, pretensioners, airbags etc and the MSA define cages, buckets, harnesses, helmets.

Using buckets and harnesses without a cage in a lot of cars will have you killed by the roof in a roll because you dont move as the manufacturer intended and unless youre very short, using a roll cage without a helmet will result in you being killed by the cage.

It's a one or the other arrangement really.

 

[...]

Glad someone realises the issue with belts and harneses and no cage and head to cage impact injuries without a helmet .

Things i bang on about all the time , but most seem to know better > then again i have witnessed the consequences

 

[JP83]

There was me thinking the government are just c***s.

 

[Clio_fool]

So what about a clio with an aftermarket steering wheel and no airbag. Fail?

 

[bashracing]

yeah, but nothing's changed on that front, so if you got it through the MoT before it'll go through again

 

[M.C..]

I have posted this before it does not just apply to rally cars, I am sure MOT testers that have experience with competition cars with have no problems with the new changes.
I questioned about 4 MOT centres when mine was due for it's first MOT after I had turned it into a track car and most had no idea what to do and said it would fail or have loads of advisories, I found a garage who prepares rally cars and it sailed through every year with no advisories.
This is what VOSA sent me back.

Thank you for your email enquiry dated 17th January 2013, concerning an
MOT.

Please find below the response we have received from our MOT Technical
Standards department.

When airbags become a failable item, scheduled for April this year, there
will be an additional paragraph in the Introduction about modified
vehicles. This paragraph will state:

"Where a vehicle has been extensively modified or converted, certain
Reasons for Rejection, such as for components ‘missing where fitted as
standard’ should not be applied, for example:
a car converted for rally use (i.e. rear seats removed and fitted with a
roll cage and full harness seat belts etc.) may have been converted so
as not to require a brake servo, power steering or airbags
a car converted to a stretch limousine may no longer be fitted with
curtain airbags or functional Electronic Stability Control.

Therefore, if you carry out the modifications you plans to make, then it
should be okay.

 

[bloke]

honestly don't see what the fuss is about? been like this for years and the term rally car is used like hoover, it's basically to deal with extensively modified cars.

 

[...]

It will hit the mildly modified cars

I have had no problem with extensively modified but the car with a non airbag wheel will

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[alistairolsen]

Exactly, it prevents the cases where someone presents a standard power 172 "track car" with a decat, harnesses and a non airbag wheel but standard seats, half the airbag system still fitted....

Which is correct as theyve done a half arsed job of replacing one safety system with another, and have disabled the emissions control for scene points

 

[DaveDreads]

So standard everything with a full cage and you'll pass.
Buckets and harnesses alone you'll fail.
Steering wheel with no airbag alone you'll fail.
Buckets, harnesses, steering wheel and no cage you fail.
But buckets, harnesses, aftermarket market steering wheel with a cage and you pass.

Is that right?

 

[bashracing]

No

 

[DaveDreads]

So basically no interior mods are legal unless you can prove it's a competition rally car, so much for my plans for buckets, harnesses, aftermarket steering wheel and a cage. (unless I trailer it to the track)

Although I have a standard interior except for the back seats removed to fit the dog in, but they can all be refitted in 5 minutes.

 

[alistairolsen]

So standard everything with a full cage and you'll pass.
Buckets and harnesses alone you'll fail.
Steering wheel with no airbag alone you'll fail.
Buckets, harnesses, steering wheel and no cage you fail.
But buckets, harnesses, aftermarket market steering wheel with a cage and you pass.

Is that right?

Exluding mega old stuff with single airbags etc, I'd take the following view:

Buckets and harnesses alone should fail under:
An airbag obviously missing or defective.
and
A seat belt load limiter or pretensioner obviously missing where fitted as original equipment
steering wheel with no airbag alone
but in many cases will pass as long as the light goes on and off correctly, define 'obviously missing'. It's still a fundamentally bad idea however.

Steering wheel is the same issue.

Buckets, harnesses, wheel and no cage falls under the exact same as the above, but its becoming more obvious that bits are missing. You could at this point perhaps start to claim it's a 'road rally car' but that would fall to the testers discretion and obviously there should be other telltale signs if someone knows what theyre looking for (map lights for example)

buckets, harnesses, wheel, cage etc, full stripped track or rally spec falls under the clause for competition cars which reads:

Modified Vehicles Where a vehicle has been extensively modified or converted, certain Reasons for Rejection, such as for components ‘missing where fitted as standard’ should not be applied, for example: • a car converted for rally use (i.e. rear seats removed and fitted with a roll cage and full harness seat belts etc.) may have been converted so as not to require a brake servo, power steering or airbags

 

[bashracing]

you'll be fine,
you can have a buckets and harness on their own, just don't remove air bags

 

[alistairolsen]

you'll be fine,
you can have a buckets and harness on their own, just don't remove air bags

Does a clio not have seatbelt pretensioners and airbags in the seats?

 

[bashracing]

Cup spec doesn't have seat air bags but most testers wouldn't have the product knowledge to know about the belt tensioners

 

[DaveDreads]

you'll be fine,
you can have a buckets and harness on their own, just don't remove air bags

But having buckets and harnesses means i've removed the curtain airbags that were in the original seats.

I've just read a few different articles on these new rules and a lot of motoring organisations and classic car clubs are just as confused, one article I read said a new EU proposal stated that anything that is different from the original factory spec is illegal and would fail an mot, but that would mean an mot tester would have to have an encyclopedic knowledge of every car ever made to know if a part is OEM or aftermarket, whereas other articles only mention a tightening of diesel emission regs and DPF removal and a change to current minor fault system and adopting minor, major & dangerous categories.

From what i've read it seems the classic car lot are going to have a much harder time of it than the modified car scene, their new regs state the car has to be in original factory condition to qualify for tax exemption, but most classic cars ran out of new OEM stock decades ago and can only get aftermarket parts, also a lot of classics have been modernised to make them safer than they were originally, which would mean they're no longer tax exempt, but again any tester would have to know if this old boys Jenson interceptor or Jag E Type came with that type of brake or suspension setup, or if it's been upgraded by Bert in his shed to make it more drivable and safer on the road.

 

[joe clarky]

Yet again this country taking the enjoyment /freedom out of driving get on my titties

 

[alistairolsen]

The classic car thing doesnt seem to be so focussed on "is it modified in ANY way", it's more "is it historic"

So a 50 year old car with a 40 year old engine swap is fine it seems, but the same swap done yesterday isnt. Likewise, some brake parts from a suitable non oem supplier is probably fine, but a rear disk conversion using modern bits probably isnt. It's currently all a bit grey though!

 

[AlanWak]

Have things changed or are now being enforced from May 20th -YES
Define a competition car -MSA LOG BOOK

Its going to become fairly black and white and make life easier for testers . My own mot station who have known me for years and have tested everything from my competition cars to modified track cars to my standard ones.

Good news for me is that legally my porsche from next year does not need an MOT or TAX , so one of the new rules is in my favour.

Its been like this in mainland europe for a long time , and its very strict in places like germany , however when there our cars had mods and passed the TUV test , you are just going to have to man up and comply or fail .

Definitely not the case - not all competition cars need MSA log books. For example of the 50 cars out on the Bath Festival Targa Road Rally on Saturday, probably none will have MSA log books. They're all MSA legal rally cars and for this event all will have at least a rear cage. On most Road Rallies cages, etc aren't requiired. The attempt at a definition of a "rally car" is incorrect and misleading.

Helmets can't be used on Road Rallies due to the image sent to other road users - "racing on the public highway". So many use cages without helmets - the answer is padding which is widely available and a Scrutineer will raise this at an event.

I run the ASWMC Autosolo Championship. We have many standardish cars out on events. Changes such as steering wheels and seats are common place. All these cars are used in Competion so must therefore be "Competition Cars".

Many cars will have bucket seats with no cage. Perfectly MSA Legal. Is there any evidence of bucket seats causing injury without cages? Is there any documentation on how standard seats "move" in an accident and are better than a properly fixed bucket (ignoring in-seat/curtain air bags)? I work in event Rescue and have never heard of a standard seat moving by design, it's main job is to contain the occupant, it shouldn't deform and let the person move around.

After many years of competing on Stage Rallies up to Rally GB, I'm now supporting grass roots Motorsport. Autosolos, Targa and Road Rallies are the basis for entry level Motorsport. Competitors starting off need to be able to compete in standard cars to keep costs low and competition as level as possible. We don't want to prevent that. Some modifications are necessary and some to driver's preference. Disabling some "safety" elements of a standard car are essential eg cut offs which activate when a large pot hole is hit. I've seen many cars come to a halt after hitting a big pot hole. I'd hate to compete behind an airbag, I've seen them go off on events after a relatively minor impact.

For the road then yes, keep all the safety equipment. But there will always be areas of Motorsport where some safety equipment will have to be changed/removed. Clearly there needs to be a definition of a "Competition Car" for legitimate Competitors, not "Boy Racers". The attempt at defining a "Rally Car" is totally wrong and will send the wrong message to MOT Testers who don't know about the wide range of competion cars. Should it really be possible where you can take a car to one Tester who will pass it, but another fail the car? If a Tester is questioned, who decides, certainly not whomever tried to define a "Rally Car".

I don't immediately have a solution, I haven't looked at this closely. An MSA Log Book for every car just isn't practical and will put off entry level Competitors. What's to prove that a car is a true "Competition Car" without any proof of use? Maybe the owner has to be a Member of an MSA Motor Club, but you then run in to "owner" issues? As I've learned over the years in Motorsport, if you can't pollice a specific area then don't try, use other methods to achieve a close solution.. There has to be a "get out" for true Competion Cars. But then is a track day car actually competing, by definition it isn't!

Has anybody spoken to the MSA about this?

 

[McGherkin]

Volvo's seats move by design in an accident.


However, are we getting a little ahead of ourselves? This is the actual wording in the draft manual.

Where a vehicle has been extensively modified or converted, certain defects, such as for components ‘missing where fitted as standard’ should not be applied, for example:

• A car converted for competition rally use (i.e. rear seats removed, fitted with a roll cage and full harness seat belts etc.) may not be fitted with; brake servo, power steering, airbags etc.
• A car converted to a stretch limousine may no longer be fitted with items such as curtain airbags or a functional Electronic Stability Control system.

This exemption does not apply to vehicles with minor modifications. Therefore, a car fitted with rally style seats, body kit and a sports steering wheel would not be exempt from the requirement to have a driver’s airbag where one was fitted as standard equipment.

This implies that the list is not exhaustive, so could include other competition cars. I would say that if you are expecting impacts large enough to set off an airbag you should probably be in a fully prepared vehicle anyway.

 

[AlanWak]

I can understand the whiplash feature in the seat, but many are talking about using fixed seats without a cage - standard seats deform in a roll to preserve an occupnats spine. I believe that's an urban myth, I've never seen any evidence, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

 

[alistairolsen]

I can understand the whiplash feature in the seat, but many are talking about using fixed seats without a cage - standard seats deform in a roll to preserve an occupnats spine. I believe that's an urban myth, I've never seen any evidence, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

I've not mentioned seats moving, merely occupants, and surely you can see the difference between a 3 point inertia belt and a 6 point harness in a rollover in terms of you head, neck and ability to move if the roof comes in. Buckets and harnesses by their very design hold you bolt upright with your spine in column and give your head nowhere to go.

Your comment on rollcages is also misleading, there is NO padding which provides an acceptable solution to bashing your head off a cage.

Personally, if you want to compete in a car with buckets and harnesses, you should have a cage, and if you arent going to wear a helmet it should be a rear cage only and entirely behind the seats. That's getting away from the MOT regulations entirely, but it's good common sense.

I totally agree with you that it needs to be clarified, unfortunately the route to achieve this is likely to be each discipline lobbying the MSA with their individual issues and then the MSA taking the whole shebang to the DVSA. At this stage, I think it's lucky there is any form of exception!

 

[DaveDreads]

Where a vehicle has been extensively modified or converted, certain defects, such as for components ‘missing where fitted as standard’ should not be applied, for example:

• A car converted for competition rally use (i.e. rear seats removed, fitted with a roll cage and full harness seat belts etc.) may not be fitted with; brake servo, power steering, airbags etc.
• A car converted to a stretch limousine may no longer be fitted with items such as curtain airbags or a functional Electronic Stability Control system.

This exemption does not apply to vehicles with minor modifications. Therefore, a car fitted with rally style seats, body kit and a sports steering wheel would not be exempt from the requirement to have a driver’s airbag where one was fitted as standard equipment.

Anyone else find this extremely confusing?

On the one hand the first statement says if you have extensive modifications such as no rear seats, a full cage, buckets and harnesses you will pass if you don't have a drivers airbag.

But the second statement says if you have rally style seats (which will almost likely be seats that can be used in competition) a sports steering wheel (which again will more than likely be fine for competition use) you will fail if you don't have a drivers airbag.

So in order to have buckets, harnesses and a steering wheel with no airbag you just need no rear seats and a full cage?

So you can have a modified car and pass and you can't have a modified car and pass, yeah that's clear as mud.

 

[STEVE.M]

Glad someone realises the issue with belts and harneses and no cage and head to cage impact injuries without a helmet .

Things i bang on about all the time , but most seem to know better > then again i have witnessed the consequences

So logically, wearing a helmet should be mandatory if a car has a full cage?

 

[...]

So logically, wearing a helmet should be mandatory if a car has a full cage?

Yes it should

The correct fia padding is sodding firm too

Never drove a caged caterham/Westfield without a helmet

Its certainly very sensible

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[alistairolsen]

The issue is there are two specs of certified padding.
The first is like pipe lagging, its round, wrap around and soft and its designed to stop you banging your knee or head climbing in and out of the car, it WILL NOT protect your head in a crash.
The other kind is a hard material which either looks like rubber or has a grain like polystyrene and is glued to one side of the roll bar tube and its designed to prevent point loading your helmet shell and reduce the decelleration of your head on impact. It's energy absorbing, but because its about a inch thick, and has to absord the energy of your head and helmet in a crash, its pretty solid at @harvsurrey says and without a helmet isnt going to help you much.

@DaveDreads the difference is a) the harnesses (see earlier comments about a complete safety system) and b) that its not for competition. If you have the standard three point belt you need the airbag.

Once again, actual competition cars with all the safety kit, fine. Some chav in a corsa with cobra monacos, standard belts and a non airbag wheel isnt.