Should i fit an oil cooler to my track car?

[DBaldwin]

Hi guys, currently building my 172 track car. its a dedicated track car that will be trailered to events. Now i was just wandering is it reccomended that i fit an oil cooler? i was thinking this with the braided lines and thermostat: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300775796...X:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_1893wt_1265

Or will the car be fine without it?

cheers

 

[Bluebeard]

Unless you're turbo'ing/supercharging/ITB'ing it, I wouldn't bother.

But I'm not an expert.

Renault spent millions developing the car to make sure it runs all day in places like Africa Aus, NZ etc so a few track days in blighty won't hurt it at all.

 

[Laine_16v]

I have the JJC cooler kit (mocal), works well, although id just run the standard rubber pipes. Braided just chomps through everything it touches.

 

[The Dominator]

I would, wouldnt run the risk of letting it get to hot and running thin

 

[ben_r1]

I got one on my ITB 197 and oil temp always remains steady even after laps of abuse.

But on a standard car surely it's not needed? Motul 300V can run upto 120 safely!

The way I see it it's just another place for an oil leak. Think an oil cooler reduces overall oil pressure slightly too?

 

[Jamie86]

If you get one with a thermostatic sandwhich plate it really can't do any harm fiting one.. that's the way I see it..

Although More joints to leak like Ben says is also a factor I guess..

 

[aterro]

No need, get a oil temp gauge and keep a eye on it. a overcooled engine isnt good.

 

[Jamie86]

No need, get a oil temp gauge and keep a eye on it. a overcooled engine isnt good.

Hence thermostatic plates no?

 

[mr.pink87]

I'd fit one on a track car tbh. On my lightly modified engine i had temps up to 145°C, now with a small 13 row the temp peaks at about 120°C.

 

[...]

first off get a capillary oil temp and pressure gauge (one that actually has oil in the pip up to the gauge not an electric one)

Knowing oil pressure is more important than temp, as hot oil is better than no oil , and very hot oil will be shown by lower pressure .

as a rule of thumb oil wants to be running at around 115 degrees is ,but that would be a modern synthetic and they will all give the working range , a stat is a very good idea as oil will take longer to warm up ,and cold oil is again not great as you will increase stress on engine components.

 

[Cupman29]

Unless you're turbo'ing/supercharging/ITB'ing it, I wouldn't bother.

But I'm not an expert.

Renault spent millions developing the car to make sure it runs all day in places like Africa Aus, NZ etc so a few track days in blighty won't hurt it at all.

Agree, I did many a trackday on the standard engine with no overheating issues. Only fitted an oil cooler now as I went turbo.

 

[Cupman29]

I would, wouldnt run the risk of letting it get to hot and running thin

If you are only using on track then use an oil with a higher second number. I am using Millers Nonodrive 10w50.

 

[The Dominator]

Even with the Motul and Millers I have had mine well above what I would call a good working temp, Problem Is the ammount of small details that are overlooked when concerning safe running temp's, And oil preasure wise- no real difference, suppose each to there own would rather have one on my car than not have one and find out I needed one

 

[Chip-mk1]

Motul 300V will run upto about 140 degrees and still work well IME.

That said, if its thermostatically controlled, there isnt really a downside to fitting a cooler other than slightly more weight and the slightly increased chance of losing oil if a line fails or a stone hits the cooler etc.

 

[The Dominator]

Not having a dig but the same risks of a stone hitting the oil cooler/pipe's ect are the same as it hitting the rad ect

 

[Chip-mk1]

Not having a dig but the same risks of a stone hitting the oil cooler/pipe's ect are the same as it hitting the rad ect

Indeed, although the oil system runs at a higher pressure, and with coolant you only kill an engine when you have lost so much the engine overheats where as with oil the drop in pressure from a significant leak is enough to do it.
I personally know people who have lost engines as a result of failed oiler cooler pipework or split oil coolers, so it IS a risk, however that wouldnt personally put me off as several of my current cars run them in fact, hence I only described it as a "slightly" increased risk of losing oil, but I was trying to give a balanced overall picture not just the positives.

 

[Space Cadet]

I don’t have an oil-cooler on my track ITB’d 172 (215bhp/180ftlb) and I can spank it all day on track and according to the temperature gauge it never varies much from the 50% mark which is where it also stays in normal driving. Based on this I haven’t ever thought of fitting an additional cooler.

 

[The Dominator]

Indeed, although the oil system runs at a higher pressure, and with coolant you only kill an engine when you have lost so much the engine overheats where as with oil the drop in pressure from a significant leak is enough to do it.
I personally know people who have lost engines as a result of failed oiler cooler pipework or split oil coolers, so it IS a risk, however that wouldnt personally put me off as several of my current cars run them in fact, hence I only described it as a "slightly" increased risk of losing oil, but I was trying to give a balanced overall picture not just the positives.

Fair comment and I supposed driving style is probably another key factor

 

[Westytce]

Fit one, more benefits than downsides. 13row with thermostatic sandwich plate im sure will do.

If it's a track car what about oil shift on hills or long corners. That will also kill an engine as no pick up

Why nit track the pulsar, nice car!! Do you have the umbrella.... Lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

I don’t have an oil-cooler on my track ITB’d 172 (215bhp/180ftlb) and I can spank it all day on track and according to the temperature gauge it never varies much from the 50% mark which is where it also stays in normal driving. Based on this I haven’t ever thought of fitting an additional cooler.

Are you going by the water temp gauge to decide if your oil temp is acceptable?
The water temp gauge by the way goes to middle at about 70 degrees and stays there to over 100, your temp can be varying wildly but it wont show, renault dont want you to know the actual temperature so the gauge just homes in on the middle very quickly and stays there, lol

 

[Westytce]

Larger copper rad would be god idea I guess too.

 

[...]

Larger Rad is also dependant on what is the idea temp on your engine , you don't want them to run too cool , and if you have water temp issues often it is oil temp related , would not worry about seeing 140deg oil temps but i would on low oil pressure ,

In fact i would much rather have a capillary (again avoid electroinic gauges if you can) oil pressure gauge before worrying about oil temps .

when i ran a zetec engine with 230bhp in we barely needed an oil cooler , but had one with a stat (and proper aeroquip hoses) as we often did summer days on long tracks like spa .

the full throttle time on spa is huge and therefore you really notice temps when its 35 degs ambient , alot of the gp tracks are like that , the other thing to do is limit yourself to 15 min sessions , which is plenty enough and kinda on the car .

 

[Chip-mk1]

Larger Rad is also dependant on what is the idea temp on your engine , you don't want them to run too cool

172 has a thermostat as standard, so running too cool isnt ever going to be caused by too big a rad unless the thermostat isnt working, in which case just fix it.

would not worry about seeing 140deg oil temps but i would on low oil pressure

Agreed, assuming we are talking about just on track, shouldnt ever see that sort of temp in normal driving.

the other thing to do is limit yourself to 15 min sessions , which is plenty enough and kinda on the car .

Very good advice for trackdays, stopping more often gives the car a much easier time, and also the driver too, different if you are racing of course.

 

[...]

172 has a thermostat as standard, so running too cool isnt ever going to be caused by too big a rad unless the thermostat isnt working, in which case just fix it

.

true , have to say we have normally run track cars with no stat ...... as a stuck stat is worse than no stat and a warm engine before going on track


oh and have seen hot oil on the road , but normally heat soak after sitting in hours of london traffic

 

[Chip-mk1]

true , have to say we have normally run track cars with no stat ...... as a stuck stat is worse than no stat and a warm engine before going on track

Lad I know who had a 400bhp astra trackday car that I mapped for him had a problem with a stuck stat.

He came in at Mallory complaining he was getting a misfire at 3500rpm, when I hooked up the laptop to see why, it was because his water temp was 112 degrees and I had set the rev limiter to drop if it went that high, so it was this new lower limiter he was hitting not a misfire! I should think that saved him an engine that he otherwise would have lost, so can definitely see your point on not running one for a pure track car in that respect.

 

[...]

would never do it on a road car ..... to many issues , but i have thrown away a fair few knackered stats over the years , mostly we just rip the middle out

 

[Space Cadet]

Are you going by the water temp gauge to decide if your oil temp is acceptable?The water temp gauge by the way goes to middle at about 70 degrees and stays there to over 100, your temp can be varying wildly but it wont show, renault dont want you to know the actual temperature so the gauge just homes in on the middle very quickly and stays there, lol

A-ha, thanks Chip I did'nt know that. At what temp does it start getting dangerous then?

 

[DBaldwin]

Why nit track the pulsar, nice car!! Do you have the umbrella.... Lol

yea i've got the umbrella lol! already started this project before i bought the pulsar, and anyway, the pulsar would be ruddy expensive to run on track!

So back to the subject, the engine is standard and is track only. As said, i'll probably only do 15min sessions anyway. So i take it the general consensus is that fitting a thermostat controlled oil cooler is a good precaution but by no means nessecary on my car? I will be thrashing it mercilessly as its a track car. Also i will be using Gulf competition 5w40 oil as reccomended to me by the guys at opie.

So its safe to say that i can do without the cooler?


cheers for the advice already!

 

[...]

seen temps of 110 on engines before with no adverse effects , no doubt there is a little red light somewhere on the renault dash ..... see it come on and it will be shut down time

it proberbly designed to run at somewhere between 90 and 95 nominal to keep the emissions where they need to be ,

 

[Westytce]

Of course you can do with out it, as you could do without better brakes or suspension.... It'll go round in standard trim if it starts when you turn the key.

 

[Chip-mk1]

A-ha, thanks Chip I did'nt know that. At what temp does it start getting dangerous then?

110 is about where I tend to start getting nervous on most cars as a rule of thumb, but that said the mk1 focus RS routinely sees those sort of temps, so it does depend a bit on the specific engine in question.

 

[dunc_sx]

(again avoid electroinic gauges if you can)

Just wondering why you say this, I believe that electric gauges are strongly preferred. If you get a broken connection between the gauge and the pressure sender on an electric gauge the gauge will read 0 (or short to some other silly reading), you stop the car and later sigh relief that it's just a simple wire fault and your engine is fine. Also easily repaired.

However, with an oil line going from gauge to sender not only do you increase the risk of an oil leak (engine failure or fire risk from hot exhaust etc) but depending on where the gauge is mounted you run the risk of 120°C+ oil going onto the drivers face/body in a leak at the gauge.

Just wondering your reasons for avoiding electric gauges as it's the first time I've ever heard of that - sure you have a valid reason

Oh and my advice would be to put good oil in, fit a gauge and see how you get on first - It might be in your application (climate, run time etc) that you can get away without one.

Cheers,

Dunc.

 

[Laine_16v]

Just wondering why you say this, I believe that electric gauges are strongly preferred. If you get a broken connection between the gauge and the pressure sender on an electric gauge the gauge will read 0 (or short to some other silly reading), you stop the car and later sigh relief that it's just a simple wire fault and your engine is fine. Also easily repaired.

However, with an oil line going from gauge to sender not only do you increase the risk of an oil leak (engine failure or fire risk from hot exhaust etc) but depending on where the gauge is mounted you run the risk of 120°C+ oil going onto the drivers face/body in a leak at the gauge.

Just wondering your reasons for avoiding electric gauges as it's the first time I've ever heard of that - sure you have a valid reason

Oh and my advice would be to put good oil in, fit a gauge and see how you get on first - It might be in your application (climate, run time etc) that you can get away without one.

Cheers,

Dunc.

I dont think they work like that bud... How would oil sat in the sump somehow be pumped up to the dashboard of the car where the pod is measured?? I don't know how they work but id be inclined to say the sender is heated and then the tube bbehind is sealed with air that expand / contracts with heat causing pressure fluctuations that can be picked up on a diaphragm and read off as a temperature measurement

 

[dunc_sx]

I dont think they work like that bud...

Yeah I'm afraid they do work like that. I was referring to oil pressure gauge, it's more important than oil temp as already stated by other people (oil temp is handy but should be used in addition to oil press, not instead of). The oil is taken up to the gauge through a thin bore pipe from a pressurised part of the system (usually near the oil filter):-

http://www.autolinkmx5.com/oil-pressure-gauge-mechanical-mx-5-with-fitting-kit-2262-p.asp

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5827/27112006226kn6.jpg

Mechanical oil temp gauges aren't very common and use a similar method:-

http://www.fwmurphy.co.uk/images/20T_temperature_gauge_medres.jpg



Cheers,

Dunc.

 

[v16daf]

Where would you plug in to read the oil pressure and oil temp? Can you get something to adapt and fit it by the filter area? Or is it a drill job?

 

[dunc_sx]

Normal way is to use an oil filter sandwich plate, basically the plate screws into where the oil filter goes and the oil filter screws into the plate. Or it can be a filter relocation one, using lines so you can put the filter where ever you want (for space).

I'm new to clio's so not sure how it works for them however, one of the regulars will know how it's done specifically on clios.

Cheers,

Dunc.

 

[v16daf]

Where can I buy one from? Thanks for the info

 

[Jamie86]

Errmm opening post link?

 

[v16daf]

Errmm opening post link?

That's the oil cooler, I wasn't referring to that. See my previous post

 

[dunc_sx]

That's the oil cooler, I wasn't referring to that. See my previous post

I'm new to clio's so had better let the experts/regulars answer that, there's one on eBay but it's a tricky area so you probs want good tried and tested kit - don't want a leak there :nono:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OIL-FILTE..._SM&hash=item53ef13a8de&_uhb=1#ht_2676wt_1138

I'm not recommending that linked one, I have no experience with it to know if it's good or not - Just putting it up to show the sort of thing that can be used (if there's room on clio's?)

Hope that helps though,

Dunc.