Standard engine rebuild to group n ?

[shiftspark]

If the engine is rebuilt to the above spec how much power/torque would you expect to see and what sort of cost would it be.
Serious question for standard class car build.(Dan/Fred ? )
Cheers

 

[M4D M4X]

Wow, surely this would cost in circa a few ££££ easy, power wise i'm not sure but would have a guest it'll be close to 230ish bhp without throttle bodies.

Intrested to what others say.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Wow, surely this would cost in circa a few ££££ easy, power wise i'm not sure but would have a guest it'll be close to 230ish bhp without throttle bodies.

Intrested to what others say.

230bhp from a group N engine? (ie standard cams, standard compression etc, you can make slight changes to be at a favourable end of tolerance, but they really are slight)

Good luck getting out of the 180s let alone 230!

 

[M4D M4X]

^ My bad,
​Didn't realise group n spec didn't change any internals/cams/compression. Thought it was a high-spec rally/race engine not standard.

 

[Chip-mk1]

^ My bad,
​Didn't realise group n spec didn't change any internals/cams/compression. Thought it was a high-spec rally/race engine not standard.

Group N is what is known as the "showroom" class, so very few mods allowed.

You are thinking of Group A I suspect mate

 

[Fred@BTM]

they're apparently around 190

 

[M4D M4X]

Cheers chip, was obviously getting confused with the groups :banghead:.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cheers chip, was obviously getting confused with the groups :banghead:.

Its weird really that it goes:
A = fairly wild mods allowed
B = practically anything goes

Makes it sounds like C onwards would be mental, and yet:
N = standard

 

[M4D M4X]

That's prob why i though like i did before then. Shame group b isn't still rallying i do love the old school 6r4's,quattro's .

So say if the op wanted a group a f4r what would the price be and bhp figures roughly?

 

[Chip-mk1]

That's prob why i though like i did before then. Shame group b isn't still rallying i do love the old school 6r4's,quattro's .

So say if the op wanted a group a f4r what would the price be and bhp figures roughly?

I would think that Group A would be well into 5 figures for cost, and potentially 250bhp+

 

[shiftspark]

they're apparently around 190

Would that be with gr n cams ? How much would be a ball park cost ? I am looking to rebuild a ph1 engine for a standard class.

 

[JohnnyE]

Interesting !!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Would that be with gr n cams ? How much would be a ball park cost ? I am looking to rebuild a ph1 engine for a standard class.

​The group n cams are basically standard cams but more accurately ground to be on the limit of tolerance. Worth a few bhp but only a few.

 

[p@blo]

Inlet cams share the same part number, but the exhaust cams differ on the grp N versus Clio 2 Cup.

Did you ever get round to measuring one up to see whats different Si?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Never had any interest in doing so tbh. I don't have any need to build a group n spec.

 

[Ryanph1rs]

Just a question regarding these cams as its something im hoping to purchase in the coming months.... looking on k-tec they list 2 various fast road cams that boast a 12-15bhp increase and a torque increase but the group N cams they make out to be on the limit and absurdly wild... however reading chips comment " guy clearly knows his stuff " you say there just more precise standard cams? im confused now which to buy i love the lumpy idle and was hoping that group N cams would give me good power increase a lumpy " cammed " idle...... could you let me know what sort of power increase these cams give if any? it would be a good read to see and understand more about these things also what cams would you recommend me? its a daily driver but lumpy idle dosent bother me

 

[Sam@NP]

Is a Grp N engine just a blue printed F4R with some cams?

​On a side note, I bloody love cammed F4Rs, mine was night and day better and really improved the engine character and usability on road and track

 

[shiftspark]

Group n should be standard cams but are to manufacturers max tolerance to allow for machining differences.

 

[Sam@NP]

Group n should be standard cams but are to manufacturers max tolerance to allow for machining differences.

so a standard fully blueprinted engine. Sounds interesting especially if the 750mc series takes off

 

[p@blo]

Group n should be standard cams but are to manufacturers max tolerance to allow for machining differences.

Grp N comp parts catalogue lists the exhaust cam as a different part ref Col. Presumably ties in with the different timing advance?

Be interesting to hear if anyones actually measured up whats different.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Just a question regarding these cams as its something im hoping to purchase in the coming months.... looking on k-tec they list 2 various fast road cams that boast a 12-15bhp increase and a torque increase but the group N cams they make out to be on the limit and absurdly wild... however reading chips comment " guy clearly knows his stuff " you say there just more precise standard cams? im confused now which to buy i love the lumpy idle and was hoping that group N cams would give me good power increase a lumpy " cammed " idle...... could you let me know what sort of power increase these cams give if any? it would be a good read to see and understand more about these things also what cams would you recommend me? its a daily driver but lumpy idle dosent bother me

Group N cams will give: a couple of bhp from the profile, and a couple of bhp from the timing tweaks, idle wont really sound any different.

Unless you are in a Group N class, then it makes no sense buying group N cams, just buy some 421s instead, they will do what you want, but be careful who you get to map them as few people seem to get it right.

 

[Ryanph1rs]

Cheers chip ill look into 421`s and when the time comes who would you recommend to map it im right on the border of south wales so dont mind a few hours drive to get it running perfect

 

[Chip-mk1]

Not spoilt for choice locally mate, Paul at RS Tuning in Leeds or Mike at MWM in Staines are probably your best bets though from what I have seen.

 

[Ryanph1rs]

Yeh I've head MWM are good and I could use it as an excuse to go to Thorpe park for a day lmao cheers for the info

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah being so close to Thorpe park is a bonus

 

[sprintcup]

Col you looking to go back to standard class or other series? if it's SB sprints just get a Teg or S2000, don't think you'll get a standard Clio Cup or other near the S2000's atm.

Regards Russ........

 

[Pauleds]

Col you looking to go back to standard class or other series? if it's SB sprints just get a Teg or S2000, don't think you'll get a standard Clio Cup or other near the S2000's atm.

Regards Russ........

I got close!!!
I'm not sure if it's a national change yet but it looks like the S2000's are being moved into a new sportscaster class to try and make it a bit fairer for the standard up to 2000cc class. Their new class will be SC.

 

[shiftspark]

I got close!!!
I'm not sure if it's a national change yet but it looks like the S2000's are being moved into a new sportscaster class to try and make it a bit fairer for the standard up to 2000cc class. Their new class will be SC.

That sounds very good news as they shouldnt really be in that class as they run in the sports car class in other rounds, Matt Carters rapid S2000 springs to mind.

Where did you see this or is it paddock talk ?

 

[Pauleds]

The Honda drivers told me it was in the pipeline, and I had a phonecall from another lad that spoke to the Honda lads at Anglesey and they said it was happening. This is with the longton and district club but I do think it's an msa introduction.
I don't think it should be a sportscar class as such as that will ruin it for the mx5's and the mg's as the will never get close, but put the SC class as a standard over 200bhp class.

 

[shiftspark]

Ah, I suppose thats a victim of its own success as if it was clios that were quickest it would be full of them and put everyone else off the class, glad in a way as I like the Clio !!

 

[Pauleds]

You can get a Clio sprinting for a lot less than a honda s2000 though!!!

 

[MG cup]

Re group N regs, does anyone have any Renaultsport literature for these cars, parts catalogue etc? I have a friend looking to build his cup to a group n spec and can't find anything.

 

[sprintcup]

It's being talked about on UR forum, the MSA don't set the capacity classes that's down to the clubs and individual championships, I don't see the problem they are just a good car for the standard class, as Paul said he got close as the class structure is quite new for standard class the records will tumble when you get a quick driver in a quick standard car as has been shown, you just have to accept it tbh.

Regards Russ....

 

[JohnnyE]

Russ get a S2000 you would look good in it............................

 

[sprintcup]

Russ get a S2000 you would look good in it............................

F*** **F John lol, not enough hair on my head, I still want to see you on the bike lol as I commented on your purchase of the roof rack, it needs to be on the floor with you on it to be of any use :rasp:will txt you later had some good news.

Regards Russ.....

 

[JohnnyE]

Been on it loads mate done 10 mile today legs feel great...................

 

[George Welsh]

I have the grN parts catalogue for the 172 from Renault sport. Send me your email on a pm

 

[George Welsh]

I am waiting a lazy friend from France to scan the homologation as well for the cup..
Just bare in mind before start doing anything that the ragnotti/cup homologation has some distinct advantages over the normal 172..

Cupissol engines for the grN are consdered to be among the top but more or less they are all about 190 as Fred said. The sadev, ecu and the goldish corners make the difference.

 

[MG cup]

I have the grN parts catalogue for the 172 from Renault sport. Send me your email on a pm

Did you get my PM George?

 

[George Welsh]

I sent you pm and a dropbox link