Suspension guru's needed, stanced boys need not apply

[EVOgone]

Great thread. Uniball systems have been used by so many car groups (90s Vauxhalls balljoints are very weak so you see most comp cars changing to this type of system).

Cup racer stuff is great but still fragile as the pictures suggest.

Cup racer rear springs are 400lbs (well all the ones i have tested on the machine in Demon tweaks)

 

[mark123]

Also, have i just read.... Cup racers run 1000lb fronts!!!!!!!

Jeez... Maybe on a seam welded shell running a proper weld in cage tieing in front turrets and with a short life expectency..., but on a std shell even with a basic cage that'll start cracking within a year imo....

I've never heard of problems like that though and I've definitely heard the 1000lb springs info before.

Cup racer cage is bolt in onto welded plates and only 6 point.

 

[frenchthing]

Seam welded shell???

If not thats a massive spring rate relying on the torsional rigidity of a std shell... its all very well having uber trick stiff as fook uber shocks.. But they'll only control the wheel properly if there attatched at the other end to a solid rigid point...

 

[mark123]

Seam welded shell???

Are you asking or telling lol? I'm genuinely interested.

I always wondered why people didn't just copy the spring and damper rates straight from the cup racers. Mine are 450 front and 400 rear IIRC.

 

[frenchthing]

Just curious, i dont really know the procedure for a cup racer prep...

It just seems a very high rate relying on a few factory spotwelds...

 

[frenchthing]

http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/...tops/ex-btcc-support-clio-cup-race-car/550796

Under shell it mentions "strengthened" by renaultsport.. Would be interesting to find out...

 

[DanClio]

Interesting stuff, thanks for your input frenchthing. I thought that looked like a 106/saxo set up. Do you have any pictures of it assembled? Would be interesting to see how much movement you have managed to get as it seems that these spherical bearings don't seem to have more than 15 degrees sweep.

In response about the cup racer rear springs I had forgotten they were coilover type rears. Which yes would mean they would need to be harder, I will have a measure up on my car and see roughly what the resolution would be so we can get an idea of how much softer they would be in thier standard position. I'm guessing about 3/5ths harder?

Also will say that the installation ratio at the front might be higher as well looking at where the strut mounts on the cup racer hub. This might account for some of the hilairous rigidity. Although 1000f/400r sounds better for natural frequencies and all that jazz. Front rear weight distribution must be about 70% front 30% rear? And I would have thought with solid bearings/engine mounts and rock hard suspension it would start vibrating the shell to pieces in minutes.

 

[Fred@BTM]

i bent the roof on mine running cup racer suspension LOL

 

[Chip-mk1]

i bent the roof on mine running cup racer suspension LOL

FLOL!

 

[Fred@BTM]

my own fault for using a 1.2 shell with sunroof!

 

[sam JFM]

i bent the roof on mine running cup racer suspension LOL

Stiff then !

 

[Chip-mk1]

my own fault for using a 1.2 shell with sunroof!

No cage?

 

[Tony Hunter]

No glass.

 

[frenchthing]

i bent the roof on mine running cup racer suspension LOL

hahaha superb!! i`ve broken the screen in my old 106 running hard front shocks and attempting to grab too much apex on a backroad and dropping the inside front into a pothole..

 

[Fred@BTM]

No cage?

too much weight

 

[Chip-mk1]

too much weight

True, with that little horsepower its no good filling the car full of heavy scaffolding! I used an ally cage once in a mini I built for an ex mrs as she wanted the race look but was only able to have a 1.0 at the time for insurance reasons, lol

 

[Fred@BTM]

still did a 13.9 1/4

 

[Chip-mk1]

still did a 13.9 1/4

SRS?

Wasnt a standard 1.2 engine then by a long way surely even if it was stripped?
What was the 60ft and what terminal?
How much did it weigh? what power was it?

 

[Fred@BTM]

SRS?

Wasnt a standard 1.2 engine then by a long way surely even if it was stripped?
What was the 60ft and what terminal?
How much did it weigh? what power was it?

cup engine dear

 

[Chip-mk1]

Still good to be in the 13s with that little power

 

[sprintcup]

I am not sure that northloops/bigash mod would be legal in the sprint road going class. (Russ)

I think they are doing a kit without sperical bearing, why would there be a problem? you've not sold your car and become a scrutineer have you?

 

[shiftspark]

I think they are doing a kit without sperical bearing, why would there be a problem? you've not sold your car and become a scrutineer have you?

OT but Mansley has pulled my car enough so I should know lol I shall be all over yours and Johnny's cars

11.7.1. The suspension type and mountings must
remain the same as that fitted by the vehicle
manufacturer.
11.7.2. The shock absorbers may be of any make and
may be uprated from standard.
11.7.3. Adjustable spring platform struts are permitted.
11.7.4. The mounting method and position must remain
as specified by the vehicle manufacturer.
11.7.5. Springs are free but must retain their original
location.

 

[DanClio]

Hmm you could try and swing it, as technically it isnt against regs, a ball joint extender (like the one off ebay) is still the same type of fitting used by the manufacturer, i.e. a pinch bolt, but it's not really within the spirit of regs

 

[sprintcup]

Hmm you could try and swing it, as technically it isnt against regs, a ball joint extender (like the one off ebay) is still the same type of fitting used by the manufacturer, i.e. a pinch bolt, but it's not really within the spirit of regs

Cheers Dan,
But this is what has killed the 1B class in sprint/ hillclimbing, instead of allowing a few mods everything became extreme, strut brace fixed spherical bearing top mounts and a few camber adjustments etc or as above, you were competing against people in Touring cars spec, and that's not a Joke, they would just put a bit of trim backin and away they went, Rd going as I've always said should be that, a few mods and driven to the event, but I still compete against cars brought on trailers, rant over lol.

One thing though Colin mine is a CUP so these are available as an option, another grey area lol.

Regards Russ...........

 

[Tony Hunter]

Rules always get pushed beyond the bounderies, fact of life I'm afraid. Pisses me off as well.

 

[sprintcup]

Rules always get pushed beyond the bounderies, fact of life I'm afraid. Pisses me off as well.

Totaly agree, I could probably fit and take a chance,but I won't because that's how it starts, but I'll ask the question.

I'm hoping this becomes a good suspension set up thread as there are some clever people on the forum.

Can I ask if the Cup racers fitted Teflon bushes in the rear beam or did they run OE bushes, and are thes parts available? IE Polly bushes?

Regards Russ........

 

[Tony Hunter]

Don't think I've got my cup racer book anymore.

 

[MG cup]

http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/...tops/ex-btcc-support-clio-cup-race-car/550796

Under shell it mentions "strengthened" by Renaultsport.. Would be interesting to find out...

As far as I know they weren't strengthened shells other than the cage which was a 6 point floor mount matter item and an OMP front strutm brace that tied into solid top mount's. The shell's were stripped of all underseal and seam sealer to lighten. There was a Renaultsport strengthening kit available for the S1600 cars that was mostly made of small plates welded around the chassis leg to monocoque area.

Totaly agree, I could probably fit and take a chance,but I won't because that's how it starts, but I'll ask the question.

I'm hoping this becomes a good suspension set up thread as there are some clever people on the forum.

Can I ask if the Cup racers fitted Teflon bushes in the rear beam or did they run OE bushes, and are thes parts available? IE Polly bushes?

Regards Russ........

They had uprated rubber bushes on the rear beam and uprated rubber bushes on the wishbones that were offset for caster. I never asked R-sport for the bushes as I fitted spherical's. Afaik there isn't a poly kit that I have found, you could make a set for about £20 pounds of nylon and steel and a little machining or you could speak to Martijn on here, he was selling some racer rear axle bushes and carriers.

 

[bozothenutter]

any news on these?

Myself and BIGASH have a roll centre corrector kit that has been used on my car and will be used on his car. It will be vigorously tested on road and track by us both before it's available as a kit, but initial impressions just from using it on my car were very very good.
It is designed to work with standard hubs as well to make life easier, and we will also be offering a kit to reduce/remove bumpsteer from lowered clios.

The Clio is one of a very few cars out there that still handles relatively well even when the roll centres have gone rediculous!

 

[NorthloopCup]

any news on these?

The only news I have is that the parts are currently with my machinist. At the moment my car is off the road for the winter months and BIGASH has still got some work to do on his before the testing is ready to take place.

Not be long though now. There will also be a steering arm adjuster kit available to reduce the bump steer.

 

[bozothenutter]

This still going?

 

[NorthloopCup]

This still going?

​Yep!

 

[frenchthing]

Any graphs of bumpsteer effect before and after fitting these kits??

Anyone dropped a spring out and actually measured whats going on during bump and droop?????

 

[frenchthing]

Anyone looked as far as measuring anything??

I would offer but my hub plate only suits peugeot pcd..

 

[Filters]

Totaly agree, I could probably fit and take a chance,but I won't because that's how it starts, but I'll ask the question.

I'm hoping this becomes a good suspension set up thread as there are some clever people on the forum.

Can I ask if the Cup racers fitted Teflon bushes in the rear beam or did they run OE bushes, and are thes parts available? IE Polly bushes?

Regards Russ........

Powerflex do a set of rear bushes for around £50-£65 so may be worth try.

 

[sprintcup]

Powerflex do a set of rear bushes for around £50-£65 so may be worth try.

Cheers, I've seen these I may look at a set when I get the rear beam done looking for a 182 with the thicker stub axles and I think they are wider track and stiffer than the 172 beams.

Regards Russ............

 

[MG cup]

Anyone looked as far as measuring anything??


I would offer but my hub plate only suits peugeot pcd..

Random question, do the 205's toe out in bump on the rear Frenchthing?
@NorthloopCup

 

[NorthloopCup]

Yeah I measured it all on mine and they are monumentally s**t in standard trim tbh. Got all the measurements written down as well. Before you ask, no I'm not posting them! Reason being, I'm packing my house up to get ready to move so it's in a box marked 'shed and car stuff'.
The modified hubs improved this by some margin though, but it's still not perfect. I wasn't to concerned after driving mine though from the all round improvements it's made. To get it perfect means having bespoke hubs. Er, no thanks.

 

[MG cup]

I don't expect any measurements mate, only tagged you to see it.

 

[NorthloopCup]

I don't expect any measurements mate, only tagged you to see it.

It was more a reply for frenchthing tbh Morgan. Thanks for the nudge though as I'd not seen it.