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Throttle Bodies or Supercharger



  vx220 and Astravan
right guys i will be buying a clio sport in the near future to use for track days. but my question is if i am to get a standard 182 what sort of power will the standard engine hold? without needing to go forged etc?

also pros and cons over supercharged over throttle bodies?

what sort of power can you expect to see from both?

with the throttle bodies can you raise rev limiter on standard engine?
 
For track use throttle bodies are perfect and uber reliable! Supercharged cars are brilliant point and squirt road cars though.

On our throttle kit with 421 cams you'll see over 210bhp and 170ftlbs. With ARP rod bolts we run a 7800RPM rev limiter (if its a stock engine then we don't go above 7500RPM on stock bolts).

Standard engine is good for 215bhp max at which point the head becomes the main restriction. With 13:1 CR, head work and appropriate cams we see 240bhp at 7800RPM.

Standard spec engine on our throttles still does 35mpg in cruise as well.
 
  Evo 5 RS
^ Can't put it any better.

Throttle bodies are a great option and massive improvement over the standard engine! The only thing with using a s/c f4r on track is you're asking for trouble on the stock block! I wouldn't fancy being out there too long.
 
  vx220 and Astravan
cheers guys i was more leaning towards throttle bodies and also sounds like a very good upgrade to get the arp rod bolt. when changing these it it just a case of changing them or will you need to replace big end bears while the end cap is off or is it as easy as just take off the sump undo the standard bolts and put the arp ones back in.

what sort of cams do you need to go for? also any other head mods to see the 240 mark as if im going to get the throttle bodies i would rather do it properly and get it to 240 as apposed to the 215 mark.
 
  DON'T SEND ME PM'S!!
^ Can't put it any better.

Throttle bodies are a great option and massive improvement over the standard engine! The only thing with using a s/c f4r on track is you're asking for trouble on the stock block! I wouldn't fancy being out there too long.

we had 2 supercharged clios on track at FCS a couple of years ago, literally all day, absolutely flat out. Both drove back to cheltenham straight afterwards. Not sure what issue there is?

Personally, either is a great option. I've got a great fondness for ITB's though, hence the increasing number if cars I'm fitting them to now.
 
  DON'T SEND ME PM'S!!
cheers guys i was more leaning towards throttle bodies and also sounds like a very good upgrade to get the arp rod bolt. when changing these it it just a case of changing them or will you need to replace big end bears while the end cap is off or is it as easy as just take off the sump undo the standard bolts and put the arp ones back in.

what sort of cams do you need to go for? also any other head mods to see the 240 mark as if im going to get the throttle bodies i would rather do it properly and get it to 240 as apposed to the 215 mark.

that's a full forged internals, high compression, head-work, higher lift cams and uprated springs to get to 240
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
240bhp = about 7k in parts realistically by the time you factor in a decent clutch and flywheel etc too as well as fully forged engine and decent headwork.
Then you'll do another grand on a diff as you really need it at that level.
If you have to pay labour too, you could be looking at 10K+ realistically to do it properly so its reliable for a real beating on track.

Might be worth just buying a faster car in the first place TBH, the great thing about the 172/182 is they are such awesome value but if you then want to get that sort of power out of them, that changes dramatically and they start being very expensive!
 
  vx220 and Astravan
well at the moment i am looking at selling my vx220 turbo project which i was building to 450bhp and have built a fully forged engine for that. i wanted to avoid going down the fully forged route really as i can get 300bhp from a standard z20let from a astra sri turbo/ gsi which is the car that i am normally used to but wanted something different from an astra as i have had about 50 of them. the car doesn't have to be super powerful as its only for my own fun on a track day and wont really be doin much racing accept for my self i just wanted something not to dear an reliable and handles very well.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Keep the VX220, great trackday car anyway, and if you have already built a decent engine then even more so.

Plus the F23 box is pretty good and diffs are only half the price they are for a clio and not as needed anyway.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
PS

I helped out with sourcing some bits and giving some advice on a 485bhp VX220 recently thats in total vauxhall this month, have a look at that for inspiration.
 
  430,911,M3,Exige,Wes
Totally agree with what Chip said... Clios are awesome cheap trackcars. Start spending money on them and they start to make no sense at all in grand scheme of things!

P.S I am doing the total opposite myself... having a forged internals, hi comp cam'd ITB, gripper diff'd car built as we speak!

If I was gonna do it again. I really wouldnt have gone anywhere near as far as I have. Much as I LOVE my Clio so much.
 
  vx220 and Astravan
i dont want to keep my vx220 as atm i have about 16k sat in that car with around another 4 to spend so when finished its going to stand at owing me 20k or something along those lines which scared me at having all that money sat in one car and atm i am running about in a 1200 van when i have all this money sat in a vx220. yes chip i know neville i have spoke to him alot. i want a cheap track car you see so a 20k vx220 track car makes no sense to me. get rid keep the cash and buy something cheap.

plus the other side to the vx220 is if i get a a little over ambitious and go in to a tire wall lets say well for a vx220 by bill will be:

new front clam - £600 second hand
Pair of new headlights - £250 each second hand
Crashbox - £500 Second hand

and thats at the least so i will then need to get it all painted another £300 minimum so im looking at a very expensive mistake and if i completely total it then i am 20k out of pocket may get like 5 to 6 back in bits but still going to be 14k out of pocket where as with a clio if i was to total it i would be what 3k out of pocket plus get most of it back in bits.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
RS2/decat/exhaust/remap on an otherwise standard engine is one good way to make them a bit more powerful without breaking the bank.

Rolling road print from -J- on here when we was at the cliosport rolling road day on saturday.

52848b4f-3c80-35ca.jpg


Very similar peak power to throttle bodies on a standard engine, better spread of torque (although less peak torque in midrange, so slightly worse from that respect on track) and you dont need to go aftermarket management which is a bit of a pain on the 182 as to go bodies you have to swap out the throttle pedal etc too which puts all the management lights on.
 
As said 240bhp is expensive! We do an off the shelf 240bhp package but it's specificaly aimed at race cars, ex FR2.0's running in French Hillclimb etc. This comprises of 240 spec cylinder head with single piece valves, new lifters, new rockers, PAC springs, TDF Steel rods with ARP fasteners, TDF specification Wossner forged pistons, ACL race big end bearings, TDF hand finished oil pump assembly and either CAT422 or CAT423 cams depending on where the customer wants peak power. Generaly we run an 8000RPM rev limit with this but we have one customer who has gone to 8400RPM on the downchange way more times than we allow without issue.

The most cost effective option for decent power on the 172/182 is our "motorsport" spec long throttle bodies with ARP rod bolts and CAT421 cams. This will see over 210bhp on an otherwise standard, healthy engine and is bomb proof having been run on road and track by 40 odd of our customers in the UK, France, Switzerland, Australia and Dubai.

Rod bolts is an easy mod and assuming the big ends are in good condition it is just a case of replacing the bolts and job done. In an ideal world you'd use a bolt stretch gauge to torque them but if you don't have access just make sure you use a known, calibrated torque wrench and torque them exactly to ARPs spec having used the supplied bolt lubricant. Failure to do so or use of a rubbish clicky stick means you may as well keep the standard ones in there as at least you know they're torqued to spec!
 
  vx220 and Astravan
oh right i see so better off you think just getting a decat exhaust and a remap and then you get around 200 which in real terms is only 20 less than a throttle bodied one which isnt really a great difference but i am used to vauxhall turbos which with just a remap and exhaust and no other mods you will see like 240 instead of the 190 standard. after thinking i want a car thats a little slower on track so that it will show me what lines to take to carry most speed out of the corner etc. i think if i just got an astra with 300bhp its to easy to just stick ya foot down once you are out of the corner. also with cams on a 182 what sort of gains will you see? is it worth it for the money? and would you need after market management for that also?
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
i dont want to keep my vx220 as atm i have about 16k sat in that car with around another 4 to spend so when finished its going to stand at owing me 20k or something along those lines which scared me at having all that money sat in one car and atm i am running about in a 1200 van when i have all this money sat in a vx220. yes chip i know neville i have spoke to him alot. i want a cheap track car you see so a 20k vx220 track car makes no sense to me. get rid keep the cash and buy something cheap.

plus the other side to the vx220 is if i get a a little over ambitious and go in to a tire wall lets say well for a vx220 by bill will be:

new front clam - £600 second hand
Pair of new headlights - £250 each second hand
Crashbox - £500 Second hand

and thats at the least so i will then need to get it all painted another £300 minimum so im looking at a very expensive mistake and if i completely total it then i am 20k out of pocket may get like 5 to 6 back in bits but still going to be 14k out of pocket where as with a clio if i was to total it i would be what 3k out of pocket plus get most of it back in bits.

Small world mate :)

Nev first contacted me about the car when he started the project and we've become pretty close friends since, really nice guy.

I totally agree with the concept of not wanting to through a 20K car around on track though, I like cheap and cheerful trackday cars myself.

Get a 172 first, and you might find that power doesnt seem such a big issue once you have driven it anyway, they're slow but great fun :)
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
oh right i see so better off you think just getting a decat exhaust and a remap and then you get around 200 which in real terms is only 20 less than a throttle bodied one which isnt really a great difference but i am used to vauxhall turbos which with just a remap and exhaust and no other mods you will see like 240 instead of the 190 standard. after thinking i want a car thats a little slower on track so that it will show me what lines to take to carry most speed out of the corner etc. i think if i just got an astra with 300bhp its to easy to just stick ya foot down once you are out of the corner. also with cams on a 182 what sort of gains will you see? is it worth it for the money? and would you need after market management for that also?

No, that one I posted is with an RS2 inlet manifold too:
http://www.stone-automotive.com/index.php/clio-rs-products/clio-rs2-inlet

For getting near to 200 you need either different inlet, or different cams.

Most of these cars make under 170bhp standard, so the starting point isnt as good as the "clio 182" label would have you think!
 
  vx220 and Astravan
thats what im thinking was looking at a 172 cup but for the price difference from that to a 182 i thought i might aswell just go for a 182? but now looking at both i have also seen that astra gsi and sri turbos have come down alot in price and can pick a half decent one up for 2500-3000 now but im sure they dont handle as well as the clio and they are about 400kg heavier tho.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Clio is FAR better on track than an astra IMHO (and working for Total Vauxhall a lot as a freelance journo im in no way anti vauxhalls!)

172 cup is best choice for trackday car, lighter than the 182 and the 182s dont really make the power difference you would think, its a few bhp at best realistically.
 
  vx220 and Astravan
oh right i see sounds good. just the 182 manifold is better right? whats the weight difference between a 182 and 172. ideally will be stripped with buckets and caged and coilovers etc.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
The cup is lighter due to no aircon and lighter seats etc.

Manifold is one of those things that some people seem to claim each one is better, not seen any really definitive answer on that personally, as both work very well IME.
 
  vx220 and Astravan
oh right fair enough. i do like the cups jsut dont like the way they are all blue lol. want something a little different but that could be sorted as i do abit of bodywork in my spare time so will plan on getting it painted white.

whats the main differences between the 172, 172 cup, 182 and 182 cup?
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
There are a few threads on here about the difference, easier for you to do a quick search than to try and relist it all here TBH.

If its a trackday car I personally see no point spending time/money/effort on changing the colour to look different, as you cant see the colour when you are out on track enjoying it anyway and who cares what anyone else sees?
 
  Evo 5 RS
in terms of performance you're clutching at straws really in differences. The 182 has a slightly better manifold, few other bits that are trivial really. All of the original ph1s are cable throttle.
 
172 Cup for a track car would be my advise unless you're doing a from scratch build. You essentialy get a free air con delete kit with a Cup ;)

Map and a decat will see it making what it says on the back of the car. 172's generally make 164 - 169bhp, 182's 166 - 173. They were a bit more consistent when new but most are getting on for 10 years old now. Worth noting the 172/182 is in PS, from Renaulst engine dyno with only the oil pump being driven by the engine hence in car they make less.

Cup with throttles is pretty much the best low operating cost track car available. Stick some 15" wheels on it and use part worn A048's ex elise trophy, Caterham etc and even the tyre costs are marginal.
 
  430,911,M3,Exige,Wes
This thread is making me realise how much I want my Clio back!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just found out its got a Neil Roper ported Phase 1 head now as well and stronger valves :)

Cant wait to drive it! hope I can actually feel the difference lol!
 
  vx220 and Astravan
thanks for all your advise guys :). what about that monaco 172 thats for sale on here has cams and boddies and a rebuild engine for under 4k is this a good price? also has coilovers and 4pots etc so seems ideal for me really just strip it and but some buckets and maybe a cage in and thats all done :)
 
  430,911,M3,Exige,Wes
errr... If it was a standard cup before then YES!!!!

Not sure I will... a few of my cars have got serious grunt. I just dont think I am gonna notice the difference.

Really hope I do though! its a bloody expensive engine now!

Its not being built for power at all though, built for reliability. It gets a proper thrashing!
 
  Ph1
TB's or supercharger? Its a no brainier surely? 4k bolt on charger, touch of ecu mapping off you go. Also sitting on bags more potential power if needed
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
errr... If it was a standard cup before then YES!!!!

It was a (sub) standard engine on bodies.

If Porkie drives his car when he gets it back and a normal cup he will definately notice the difference, but trying to remember what it was like driving his car before when since then he has no doubt been driving around in his Exige S, his 500bhp westfield and his F430 ferrari kind of makes it hard to remember!

I would guess though that there will be a corner or two at bedford that were trivial to take at full throttle that now feel a bit more of a handful, so that might give it away as he obviously knows which corners his car could take full throttle on before :)
 
  Evo 5 RS
well it ain't no cossy westfield, depends when the last time you drove the Cup was I suppose lol.

TB's or supercharger? Its a no brainier surely? 4k bolt on charger, touch of ecu mapping off you go. Also sitting on bags more potential power if needed

Hello, this is wishful thinking limited, we are currently closed at the moment but please feel free to try again tomorrow
 


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