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most are Cerametallic,
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most are Cerametallic,
Seems like I'm having similar problems. Done four trackdays over two and a half years, all at Oulton. I'll try and keep it brief;
No. 1, early '09, Novice day - Goodridge lines and Catrol Super Response, standard pads and discs (probably the originals as well). Front pads about 50% worn afterwards, front discs ok.
No. 2, late '09, Renaultsport day - everything left the same. Afterwards front pads about 80% worn, front discs looking nearer the end of their life.
Late '09 early '10 Pagid Blue and Brembo Max fitted. For day-to-day driving felt good, didn't need to be worked hard, rumble from grooves in discs really irritating, and pads squealed a fair bit, not much dust though.
No. 3, Goldtrack day earlier this year, pads and discs still in good condition after a year or so of just road use. Out on track lots of racecars, found it difficult to do proper warm up and cool down laps. And a lack of self control lead me to stay out for 30/35 mins a few times rather than my preferred 20 mins. Afterwards - discs ok, pads knackered, high level of wear and cracks in the friction material. Apparently they'd have been ok for road use, but not another trackday.
Anyway, new fluid (ATE Super Blue), DS2500's and plain cut Brembo HC's (fed up of the weird noise/feel of the Max's), and new rear pads.
No. 4, Novice day, week last Thursday (figured a sessioned day would help me to preserve my brakes.....turned out it was open pitlane.....). As previously, I stayed out longer than I probably should have done a few times, but did proper warm up and cool down laps so figured it'd be ok. Had another session with an instructor (always do), mentioned my concerns about knackering the brakes. He said I could maybe brake lighter and longer, but was hesitant to say so as I had good pace and he didn't want to take anything away from that. Last few sessions had really bad wobble/vibration through steering wheel, even taking it easier heading into the bends didn't seem to help much. They feel much better now, but still slight wobble, pretty sure I've warped one/both of my discs. Also, DS2500's seem to produce a lot more dust than the Pagid Blue's I had.
Should also add, the car has not been stripped in anyway, has standard cup pack suspension and road tyres. First and foremost it's my everyday car and I want it to remain as such.
Where to go from here? Is it my driving, not looking after my brakes well enough? Remove fog lights and liners prior to trackday? 4 pots? Had always thought, and stated on here, that they were a waste of money. But maybe they'd give the best of both worlds? How would they affect the braking balance, pedal feel? Would I just brake later and harder and still go through pads and discs? Have I just got to accept that I've got quicker and replacing pads/discs will be another expense of trackdays? I know Oulton is fast, is it particularly hard on brakes compared to other circuits?
Apologies for filling up this thread with my ramblings, had intended to start my own, but on finding this one didn't see the point.
And oh yeah, failed to keep it brief
No. 1, early '09, Novice day - Goodridge lines and Catrol Super Response, standard pads and discs (probably the originals as well). Front pads about 50% worn afterwards, front discs ok.
No. 2, late '09, Renaultsport day - everything left the same. Afterwards front pads about 80% worn, front discs looking nearer the end of their life.
Late '09 early '10 Pagid Blue and Brembo Max fitted. For day-to-day driving felt good, didn't need to be worked hard, rumble from grooves in discs really irritating, and pads squealed a fair bit, not much dust though.
No. 3, Goldtrack day earlier this year, pads and discs still in good condition after a year or so of just road use. Out on track lots of racecars, found it difficult to do proper warm up and cool down laps. And a lack of self control lead me to stay out for 30/35 mins a few times rather than my preferred 20 mins. Afterwards - discs ok, pads knackered, high level of wear and cracks in the friction material. Apparently they'd have been ok for road use, but not another trackday.
Anyway, new fluid (ATE Super Blue), DS2500's and plain cut Brembo HC's (fed up of the weird noise/feel of the Max's), and new rear pads.
No. 4, Novice day, week last Thursday (figured a sessioned day would help me to preserve my brakes.....turned out it was open pitlane.....). As previously, I stayed out longer than I probably should have done a few times, but did proper warm up and cool down laps so figured it'd be ok. Had another session with an instructor (always do), mentioned my concerns about knackering the brakes. He said I could maybe brake lighter and longer, but was hesitant to say so as I had good pace and he didn't want to take anything away from that. Last few sessions had really bad wobble/vibration through steering wheel, even taking it easier heading into the bends didn't seem to help much. They feel much better now, but still slight wobble, pretty sure I've warped one/both of my discs. Also, DS2500's seem to produce a lot more dust than the Pagid Blue's I had.
Should also add, the car has not been stripped in anyway, has standard cup pack suspension and road tyres. First and foremost it's my everyday car and I want it to remain as such.
Where to go from here? Is it my driving, not looking after my brakes well enough? Remove fog lights and liners prior to trackday? 4 pots? Had always thought, and stated on here, that they were a waste of money. But maybe they'd give the best of both worlds? How would they affect the braking balance, pedal feel? Would I just brake later and harder and still go through pads and discs? Have I just got to accept that I've got quicker and replacing pads/discs will be another expense of trackdays? I know Oulton is fast, is it particularly hard on brakes compared to other circuits?
Apologies for filling up this thread with my ramblings, had intended to start my own, but on finding this one didn't see the point.
And oh yeah, failed to keep it brief
Could be a few thing, as a novice you will tend to over brake for corners which will produce more heat.
Dust just proves they are working, you shouldn't really be worrying about dust when you are on track lol.
Have more self control to come in and give the brakes a rest removing fogs and arch liners will help reduce temperatures.
Dust just proves they are working, you shouldn't really be worrying about dust when you are on track lol.
Have more self control to come in and give the brakes a rest
removing fogs and arch liners will help reduce temperatures.Cheers for the advice.
Not sure I over brake, tend to brake quite late and hard, try to take off just as much speed as I need to and carry as much as I can through the bends, tyres often squealing (so probably not enough).
Yes, I know the wear of the pads and discs creates dust - more concerned about what the dust is doing to the car
More self control definitely required. 20 mins on track and then 30-40 mins for it to cool down - does that sound ok? Difficult balance, want to have fun and get my money's worth from the day, but without wrecking my car and creating big bills for myself after the event.
Will have to figure out how to remove the fogs/liners (probably a guide on here) ready for next time, hopefully that will help.
I'm a much quicker track driver now than I was, but I know, still a lot for me to learn.
Not sure I over brake, tend to brake quite late and hard, try to take off just as much speed as I need to and carry as much as I can through the bends, tyres often squealing (so probably not enough).
Yes, I know the wear of the pads and discs creates dust - more concerned about what the dust is doing to the car
More self control definitely required. 20 mins on track and then 30-40 mins for it to cool down - does that sound ok? Difficult balance, want to have fun and get my money's worth from the day, but without wrecking my car and creating big bills for myself after the event.
Will have to figure out how to remove the fogs/liners (probably a guide on here) ready for next time, hopefully that will help.
I'm a much quicker track driver now than I was, but I know, still a lot for me to learn.
182cup & 172 racecar
Cheers for the advice.
Not sure I over brake, tend to brake quite late and hard, try to take off just as much speed as I need to and carry as much as I can through the bends, tyres often squealing (so probably not enough).
I think you might have said it there.
Not sure I over brake, tend to brake quite late and hard, try to take off just as much speed as I need to and carry as much as I can through the bends, tyres often squealing (so probably not enough).
I think you might have said it there.
I thought over braking meant braking hard and for a long time before the bend i.e. braking too much due to a lack of confidence in the cars ability to carry x amount of speed through the bend. If I find myself scrubbing off speed with understeer then presumably I've gone in too quick, so obviously try and avoid that. I try and keep the braking in a straight line, perhaps trailing slightly into the turn to aid turn-in, feeding in the power again before the apex. Obviously an instructor doesn't have long in a 20 min session to offer a huge number of tips, but I would have thought that if there was anything seriously wrong with what I was doing he would have said.
For the future think all I can do is, obviously sort the current problem (probably new discs, hopefully not new pads) and as said remove fogs/liners prior to next day.
For the future think all I can do is, obviously sort the current problem (probably new discs, hopefully not new pads) and as said remove fogs/liners prior to next day.
182cup & 172 racecar
There is a lot to braking than just slowing the car down,balance,turn in etc.But I'm not going to write a 3 page essay.
Believe me,most instructors are just happy to survive a 20min session,so unless you are driving like a loon they will be quite happy to sit there and give very basic advise.
Believe me,most instructors are just happy to survive a 20min session,so unless you are driving like a loon they will be quite happy to sit there and give very basic advise.
Fair enough.
Fully aware that there are those who can make their brakes last a lot longer than me, my initial inclination was that it was my driving that needed to change, which is why I was very specific in asking my instructor about braking. Others have steered me away from that and towards making changes to the brakes.
There is only so much an instructor can impart in 20 mins, but I have found the four intructor lessons that I've had useful, definitely helped me to become smoother and quicker on track, but still a long way to go. What I've wanted to do for a while is some kind of trackday course, a half day, full day, whatever - expensive, but then so is replacing brakes.
I posted the above comments/thoughts with a view to receiving the opinions/advice of others, which I have. Are the problems that I've had due to my driving, the car, combination of the two, or not problems at all just part and parcel of taking your car out on a circuit? Still not really sure. At the next trackday all I can do is what I've said previously, if there's anything wrong with my driving then it's something I don't yet understand and will only do so with more time on track or by having more instruction of some kind.
Fully aware that there are those who can make their brakes last a lot longer than me, my initial inclination was that it was my driving that needed to change, which is why I was very specific in asking my instructor about braking. Others have steered me away from that and towards making changes to the brakes.
There is only so much an instructor can impart in 20 mins, but I have found the four intructor lessons that I've had useful, definitely helped me to become smoother and quicker on track, but still a long way to go. What I've wanted to do for a while is some kind of trackday course, a half day, full day, whatever - expensive, but then so is replacing brakes.
I posted the above comments/thoughts with a view to receiving the opinions/advice of others, which I have. Are the problems that I've had due to my driving, the car, combination of the two, or not problems at all just part and parcel of taking your car out on a circuit? Still not really sure. At the next trackday all I can do is what I've said previously, if there's anything wrong with my driving then it's something I don't yet understand and will only do so with more time on track or by having more instruction of some kind.
182cup & 172 racecar
Don't get me wrong,but these things can't just be sorted out in 5mins on a forum.I'm sure Sam would agree with me on this one.
Golf GTD Mk7
I do. Could this be an issue?
Had considered being an instructor looked like a pretty cool job, getting to go out in some interesting cars.....but thinking about it you probably need to be a bit bonkers - who knows what kind of an idiot you could end up sitting next to?!
Do I heal and toe? No (only have a basic understanding of what it is). How much of my foot is on the pedal? Er.....absolutely no idea. I know you guys know what you're talking about, but I can't really expect you to teach me how to improve my driving on here - that would be a very long thread.
And Jonny, apologies if I've hijacked your thread.
Do I heal and toe? No (only have a basic understanding of what it is). How much of my foot is on the pedal? Er.....absolutely no idea. I know you guys know what you're talking about, but I can't really expect you to teach me how to improve my driving on here - that would be a very long thread.
And Jonny, apologies if I've hijacked your thread.
Sir_Dave
ClioSport Trader
Again, some decent advice in this thread, although the braking issues really do surprise me!!
Personally, i have always run the following setup on all my clio's:
Braided lines (make bugger all difference having done back to back track days with/without)
Brembo HC (or standard) discs
DS2500's (2nd hand ones lol), & latterly CL RC5+'s
Castrol Dot4
Fog lights & arch liners removed
Now, i dont hang about, but i have never had an issue with braking capability at a UK trackday, in fact since i fitted the CL's, the performance is quite frankly staggering - consistent, hard, stopping power, again & again & again ... my car is essentially at standard kg's as well, & always includes both myself, & Sarah/Ollie/Nick, etc on trackdays - so its no lightweight track toy.
As such, my suggestion to those in this thread with consistent problems would be, as both Tony, Sam & Fred have inferred, perhaps have a look at your braking style via some additional tuition on track - perhaps even prior to extensive, & additional vehicular modification!
FYI - i normally do 20-30 minutes on track, then roughly the same as cool down, & always heal & toe, not just for additional smoothness in the car, but to stop the French gearbox turning to mush. I normally do it whilst wearing loafers & white socks too...
Personally, i have always run the following setup on all my clio's:
Braided lines (make bugger all difference having done back to back track days with/without)
Brembo HC (or standard) discs
DS2500's (2nd hand ones lol), & latterly CL RC5+'s
Castrol Dot4
Fog lights & arch liners removed
Now, i dont hang about, but i have never had an issue with braking capability at a UK trackday, in fact since i fitted the CL's, the performance is quite frankly staggering - consistent, hard, stopping power, again & again & again ... my car is essentially at standard kg's as well, & always includes both myself, & Sarah/Ollie/Nick, etc on trackdays - so its no lightweight track toy.
As such, my suggestion to those in this thread with consistent problems would be, as both Tony, Sam & Fred have inferred, perhaps have a look at your braking style via some additional tuition on track - perhaps even prior to extensive, & additional vehicular modification!
FYI - i normally do 20-30 minutes on track, then roughly the same as cool down, & always heal & toe, not just for additional smoothness in the car, but to stop the French gearbox turning to mush. I normally do it whilst wearing loafers & white socks too...
Last edited by a moderator:
Golf GTD Mk7
I'm puzzled by it too Dave. I've had quite a bit of tuition on track now. I was taught to trail brake into corners, which felt good from a stablility point of view, but brakes were still inconsistent. I don't slam the pedal down either, and the bite doesn't seem to be there all the time. Saying that, my brakes never feel great on track or the road really. Maybe another issue somewhere.
Interesting how much Ayrton feathered the throttle.
Interesting how much Ayrton feathered the throttle.
Dave - agreed.
Have long thought tuition is better value than mods, assuming you learn something obviously - it's with you for life.
But rather than research what course to do, find the (often large amount of) cash needed - far easier to turn up at a trackday, have fun.....fix the brakes afterwards. Tuition is probably far cheaper in the long run. Will probably do one more trackday, then look at getting better tuition. Joining the IAM would probably be the better option as most driving I do is obviously on the road, but it would hopefully also improve my track driving as well. Preferred option would be a course at Millbrook. Gonna have to do some research.....
Have long thought tuition is better value than mods, assuming you learn something obviously - it's with you for life.
But rather than research what course to do, find the (often large amount of) cash needed - far easier to turn up at a trackday, have fun.....fix the brakes afterwards. Tuition is probably far cheaper in the long run. Will probably do one more trackday, then look at getting better tuition. Joining the IAM would probably be the better option as most driving I do is obviously on the road, but it would hopefully also improve my track driving as well. Preferred option would be a course at Millbrook. Gonna have to do some research.....
RB 182
Sam,
Come to Donington on the 16th to teach us all how to drive? x
Come to Donington on the 16th to teach us all how to drive?
x
182cup & 172 racecar
Who else is going?
Steve
ClioSport Club Member
ST3 8.5
Awesome no problems at all.
Great from cold on road & never give up on track.
Been using them for 18 months now, would not use anything less.
Tried most of the pads etc mentioned in this thread hence new direction.
No squeals or problems, lots of other forums were raving about them so thought why not try them.
Some race series use as well.
Don't look anything special, if fact look as though sprayed with silver rattle can but boy do they work!
Golf GTD Mk7
Golf GTD Mk7
406 V6, Race Buggy
What's the price on these? Different isn't always a bad thing
They're usually a chunk more than DS2500's or similar but they're a huge step up, stonking pads, only thing we ever use in the racer now. (Well, use XP10* in the rear, but still carbotech).
They tend to outlast most cheap pads by a hell of a margin so it more than makes up for the extra money up front, very gentle on the discs too. If you drop Ian@Carbotech Europe a bell he'll sort you a price out.
*Which are even better than XP8 hot or cold, but more aggressive on discs and probably serious overkill for a road/track car as light as a clio...I've melted wheel bearing grease, CV grease, and bubble the paint on the wheels before they start to give up...
Golf GTD Mk7
Probably not at the speeds you'll need to get them into their stride
Best pads we've ever had on the buggy - and we tried a few - so I don't mind recommending them, they've been stonking.
Explain, i'm in thick mode today
ps. Nice initiative with the brake clutch
RB 182
We have put the Brembo discs and DS3000's on today. Feel much much better than what we had at Oulton. Are you going to run the same pads Jonny? Ours were almost to the backing plate which would explain why they dropped off in performance.
Golf GTD Mk7
I'm going to strip them down tomorrow as I fear that could be the issue. Outer pads look ok, but I'm getting bad vibration, noise on the road :S I'll report my findings
Golf GTD Mk7
It's a but wierd the inside pads wearing at the same rate isn't it? Discs feel slightly curved as you run your finger from outside to hub. As if they have worn less at the middle. Ideas? Pads look ok don't they?
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