Turbo techie question....

[Darren S]

I think I'm missing something here.

I can understand putting braided covers and other wrappings on turbo parts and exhaust manifolds to reduce the overall heat build-up in the engine-bay...but.....

http://www.merlinmotorsport.com/product_info.php?products_id=1064

Putting part of the turbo itself in what looks like a cooler bag looks a bit iffy to me. I thought turbos had to dissapate heat as quickly as possible not to damage themselves with warped blade spindles, etc? Surely the heat couldn't escape in the 'bag' and literally the turbo would just cook itself?

Then again, I could just be talking poo.....

D.

 

[AliasOmega]

You would of thought you would of put some forced ram air onto the exterior of the turbo for what effect it has.

 

[Paul J]

Hmm, pro's and cons for having it or not.

The turbo will be more efficient at a higher temp and along with wrapped exhaust keeps the exhaust gas speed higher thus creating more power, not to mention reduced underbonnet temps and possibly ACTs. Premature failure has been blamed on these and its a fact that new GT garret turbos are much more sensitive to heat the the old Ts.

 

[EVOgone]

I think I'm missing something here.

I can understand putting braided covers and other wrappings on turbo parts and exhaust manifolds to reduce the overall heat build-up in the engine-bay...but.....

http://www.merlinmotorsport.com/product_info.php?products_id=1064

Putting part of the turbo itself in what looks like a cooler bag looks a bit iffy to me. I thought turbos had to dissapate heat as quickly as possible not to damage themselves with warped blade spindles, etc? Surely the heat couldn't escape in the 'bag' and literally the turbo would just cook itself?

Then again, I could just be talking poo.....

D.

The wrapping on the turbo is mainly to stop heat from the turbine housing (800-1050deg depending on model /application) radiating to all areas of the engine bay. Underbonnet temps can be reduced, which is a good thing if you have an open IK / cables (dries the grease/melts)/pipes (petrol / oil etc), close to the head, causing hotsport / distortion.

The Turbine housing wouldnt cook its self but it maywell be more prone to cracking after sustaining max temp but it the thermo cycling that causes this (i.e. many many repeated times).

Regards to the exhaust pipe being wrapped then this has it performance advantages as the hotter the gas the better it flows (exhaust gas that is..!)

In summary can be helpful but its main use is a heat sheald to the rest of the engine bay.

 

[Fred@BTM]

^this man knows his turbos^

(ps, your gonna have to help me out on my engine and where all the pipes to the turbo go!)

 

[EVOgone]

^this man knows his turbos^

(ps, your gonna have to help me out on my engine and where all the pipes to the turbo go!)

LOL - if i get my wheels cheeper i will get you a new one..!

 

[EVOgone]

Hmm, pro's and cons for having it or not.

The turbo will be more efficient at a higher temp and along with wrapped exhaust keeps the exhaust gas speed higher thus creating more power, not to mention reduced underbonnet temps and possibly ACTs. Premature failure has been blamed on these and its a fact that new GT garret turbos are much more sensitive to heat the the old Ts.

Where did you hear that about the GT ones are more heat sensitive and failing earlier..........?

 

[Fred@BTM]

hum descisions, descisions!!!!

 

[jonnyboy]

the 225 has a turbo heatshield on it as well as loads of heatproofing stuff, if you go on a run and then peek under it you can see the fecker glow sometimes hehe

 

[Paul J]

For years people disconnected the water cooling on Ts and thus continued to do this when fitting the GTs, several failures followed and pinned down to the turbos being less robust than the old ones. Im sure SCS, norris motorsport and Reyland all found this tbtc iirc

Dont know if the jacket would cause the same problem but id think possible.

 

[Fred@BTM]

why disconnect the water cooling seems dumb

 

[EVOgone]

For years people disconnected the water cooling on Ts and thus continued to do this when fitting the GTs, several failures followed and pinned down to the turbos being less robust than the old ones. Im sure SCS, norris motorsport and Reyland all found this tbtc iirc

Dont know if the jacket would cause the same problem but id think possible.

Why disconect the watercooling, its there for a reason....! Answer is quite simple if this is where your theory comes from..!

 

[Paul J]

lol disconnecting the water cooling was done on prob 50% of tuned RSTs, no disadvantage and a cooling system now able to cope.

 

[EVOgone]

lol disconnecting the water cooling was done on prob 50% of tuned RSTs, no disadvantage and a cooling system now able to cope.

For the old T3/4 turbos on petrol cars (cossies/Saab/Escort) then they where all W/C for a reason. It gives no benifits disconnecting it and would only reduce reliability. Having owned and ran 3 or 4 sapph / Escort cossies, never hear of this diconnecting. What advantage does that give.....


The newer GT series Turbo is only called that as it uses newer design Compressor and turbine wheels and is a Z axis build..i.e. easier to build (cheeper).....

GT race turbos are now all roller bearings plus oil cooling is much better so W/C is not as common.

 

[Paul J]

Disagree, the benefit is the stock cooling system could not cope with a midly tuned engine (RST at least) and was not required by the turbo.

Turbos were always cooled by oil and indeed are the most important fluid but the GTs are assumed to be damaged by lack of water cooling.

Please post on www.passionford.com if you wish to have an in depth technical discussion. The tuners on there will be able to give you there experiences and knowledge.

 

[EVOgone]

Disagree, the benefit is the stock cooling system could not cope with a midly tuned engine (RST at least) and was not required by the turbo.

Turbos were always cooled by oil and indeed are the most important fluid but the GTs are assumed to be damaged by lack of water cooling.

Please post on www.passionford.com if you wish to have an in depth technical discussion. The tuners on there will be able to give you there experiences and knowledge.

Should be an interesting read........sound like there is some mmmmm questionable statement being banded around. But hey so does this forum...LOL

 

[Paul J]

Karl at Norris Motorsport wrote:

Don't forget folks, if you're running a ball bearing core as found on many turbos such as the Garret GT range you MUST run water cooling else its Goodbye turbo!!

Traditional journal bearing turbos such as the garret T series can run without water cooling provided you run both a good quality oil and allow the turbo to cool down after a good beating. Failure to do this will cause the thrust bearing to self destruct literally (due to excessive heat and poor oil)!


See this post:
http://www.passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=169339&highlight=turbo+water+cooling

 

[EVOgone]

Disagree, the benefit is the stock cooling system could not cope with a midly tuned engine (RST at least) and was not required by the turbo.

Turbos were always cooled by oil and indeed are the most important fluid but the GTs are assumed to be damaged by lack of water cooling.

Please post on www.passionford.com if you wish to have an in depth technical discussion. The tuners on there will be able to give you there experiences and knowledge.

Just been on the website and the main threads show that people diconnect the water feed as they have issues with joints sealing correctly or in top states of tune (without upgrading the coolingsystem - oil/water). Some say they dont have issues but i can gaurentee (as others do on the thread) the thrust bearing will wear a lot quicker.

Also the cooling system on these old cars are borderline and once tuned then are totally inadequate. The people in the know uprate the cooling system........and it works a treat.

Regards to the GT series being weeker etc then thats just balls as they are a lot better designed. The GT BB turbos are probabley the most common and best performing on the market...!

If it blows up then i suspect other factors....EVO / 200SX / WRX / Skylines all run these without issues and some are water cooled

 

[Paul J]

^ see above, not just a post picked that kinda agrees with me but Karl is the most respected person that has replied to one of the previous questions, although someone mentions Harvey at SCS agrees.

No doubt the GTs are much better turbos but they are massively different to the old turbos and require proper cooling.

 

[EVOgone]

^ see above, not just a post picked that kinda agrees with me but Karl is the most respected person that has replied to one of the previous questions, although someone mentions Harvey at SCS agrees.

No doubt the GTs are much better turbos but they are massively different to the old turbos and require proper cooling.

We will agree to disagree, regards to respected tuners then Mark Sheed is probably best in the Ford tuning world.

Oh and the 100 design and product engineers that work at Garrett....which is where i work.

Dont belive everything your hear on a website......BTW Karl agrees with me on the disconecting issue.

 

[Paul J]

Mark Shead of MAD you mean? He also use's the board, i would like to know his opinion, prob said but lost in the passionford crash.

My opinion is based on lots of threads over the years with input from many tuners, may be wrong but i ran four old G turbos without water and not one failed in my ownership, maybe i was lucky

 

[EVOgone]

Mark Shead of MAD you mean? He also use's the board, i would like to know his opinion, prob said but lost in the passionford crash.

My opinion is based on lots of threads over the years with input from many tuners, may be wrong but i ran four old G turbos without water and not one failed in my ownership, maybe i was lucky

Mark of MAD yes.

Dont doubt it, im just saying if the water feed and coolant system was working correctly then they would have lasted longer...

Regards to GT series if its water cooled im sure they use the water feeds if its not got water feeds im sure they dont...LOL

 

[Paul J]

Just remembered, i believe Mark has experienced the effects of no water cooling on a GT series, Sunny's FRST had this problem if im not mistaken (quite possible tho) with disastrous consequence.

 

[EVOgone]

Just remembered, i believe Mark has experienced the effects of no water cooling on a GT series, Sunny's FRST had this problem if im not mistaken (quite possible tho) with disastrous consequence.

LOL - you must select the right turbo for the correct application. One turbo can work fine on one car then not on the other. Millions are spent developing out all the reason for failure on an engine. If your criteria is to stick a turbo on a car and the turbo blows up and "its the turbos fault" more fool you.

Sunny's car is rapid saw it at TOTB...Funny all the top HP / Performance tuners cars all run the GT series Turbo..

 

[Paul J]

I agree totally with that, the whole engine spec should be decided at the beginning with the turbo chosen to suit the expected flow capabilities and required power band with the compressor map etc

No doubt the GT is a good few steps infront of the older Ts

 

[EVOgone]

No doubt the GT is a good few steps infront of the older Ts

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