Unwell 182 :-(

[Ryanj]

Was the idle lumpy before the belt change? Surely if it was fine before hand, it can only be down to incorrect timing?

 

[mi16chris]

Have u talked to who ever did the work on the car ? Sounds like a timing problem

 

[Mr Rossi]

lol, knew it. Well my suspicions were your timing was out & you had piston to valve contact. Question.... after this so called map change..... did your lumpy idle go??

Yes.

 

[Mr Rossi]

Have u talked to who ever did the work on the car ? Sounds like a timing problem

Yes I have, he was suspicious about something after changing belts.

 

[MikeClio172SPT]

Yes I have, he was suspicious about something after changing belts.

like what? did he say?

 

[Mr Rossi]

like what? did he say?

He asked if the car was completely standard, as it didn't time up precisely.

 

[MikeClio172SPT]

He asked if the car was completely standard, as it didn't time up precisely.

hmmm, sorry to say dude, looks like your failure was due to timing being out, really sorry to.

Cant see why he couldnt time it up correctly, with the correct timing & locking tools, should be fine.

 

[Mr Rossi]

hmmm, sorry to say dude, looks like your failure was due to timing being out, really sorry to.

Cant see why he couldnt time it up correctly, with the correct timing & locking tools, should be fine.

 

[MikeClio172SPT]



tell u what could have happened, its possible he locked the crank in a balancing hole.

 

[Jay_G]

If what your saying is correct Mike (and all info supplied is correct), then surely it's up to the garage to replace the engine/fix the engine? As it was their timing that destroyed it.

Like I said presuming all is correct.

Sorry to hear about that OP! Last thing you wana hear I suspect

 

[Mr Rossi]

tell u what could have happened, its possible he locked the crank in a balancing hole.

But the car ran fine (apart from the lumpy idle map change) before. It felt flat, (hence the map change) but this was 10 days prior to my journey. The car was worked on 13 days prior, then went back for a remap and to have the sparkplugs changed.

 

[MikeClio172SPT]

If what your saying is correct Mike (and all info supplied is correct), then surely it's up to the garage to replace the engine/fix the engine? As it was their timing that destroyed it.

Like I said presuming all is correct.

Sorry to hear about that OP! Last thing you wana hear I suspect

Im not pointing the finger at who is to blame etc, of course Mr Rossi, had had a firm work on the engine, the mechanic told him, he wasnt sure about the timing, and not long after due to some sort of internal failure, its gone bang. More investigation needed before a finger is pointed........

 

[Mr Rossi]

Im not pointing the finger at who is to blame etc, of course Mr Rossi, had had a firm work on the engine, the mechanic told him, he wasnt sure about the timing, and not long after due to some sort of internal failure, its gone bang. More investigation needed before a finger is pointed........

I know this, but the car is with the people I trust to work on it, which is the people that worked on it in the first place.

The mechanic asked me if it was completely standard (which to my knowledge it was) because he believed it required further investigation as something didn't add up, and he wanted more time to look at it.

Now that the engine has died, and the car has been recovered there, preliminary reports suggest the valve has come apart. I've no reason to not believe them.

I will investigate more when I go there today.

 

[Ryanj]

Im not pointing the finger at who is to blame etc, of course Mr Rossi, had had a firm work on the engine, the mechanic told him, he wasnt sure about the timing, and not long after due to some sort of internal failure, its gone bang. More investigation needed before a finger is pointed........

Agreed. it does all seem very odd, and unfortunately all of the signs to point to incorrect timing. The only problem is now, IF it did turn out to be the specialists fault due to incorrect timing, they could have covered it up by now. I know that sounds extreme and is unlikely, but you'de be suprised what companies will do to get out of things. Obviously i hope that this isn't the case!

 

[MikeClio172SPT]

I know this, but the car is with the people I trust to work on it, which is the people that worked on it in the first place.

The mechanic asked me if it was completely standard (which to my knowledge it was) because he believed it required further investigation as something didn't add up, and he wanted more time to look at it.

Obviously now that the engine has died, and the car has been recovered there, they are saying the valve has come apart. I've no reason to not believe them.

I will investigate more when I go there today.

you may have to go back and ask him what didnt add up..... the timing is set as follows, you lock the crank with a pin through the front, and to tell if its in the correct position, on the lower inner crank pulley, the slot in the pulley should be between the two webs on the lower face of the engine, then to set the cams.... pop the rear camshaft seal blanking caps out.... install the timing tool, and that is your timing set for belt removal. So you'd need to maybe ask him how he timed it up etc.

 

[Mr Rossi]

Agreed. it does all seem very odd, and unfortunately all of the signs to point to incorrect timing. The only problem is now, IF it did turn out to be the specialists fault due to incorrect timing, they could have covered it up by now. I know that sounds extreme and is unlikely, but you'de be suprised what companies will do to get out of things. Obviously i hope that this isn't the case!

So do I- but I can't prove anything either way. So I'm kind of screwed as far as the car goes

 

[Mr Rossi]

you may have to go back and ask him what didnt add up..... the timing is set as follows, you lock the crank with a pin through the front, and to tell if its in the correct position, on the lower inner crank pulley, the slot in the pulley should be between the two webs on the lower face of the engine, then to set the cams.... pop the rear camshaft seal blanking caps out.... install the timing tool, and that is your timing set for belt removal. So you'd need to maybe ask him how he timed it up etc.

I will try to ask him directly today.

 

[Ryanj]

So do I- but I can't prove anything either way. So I'm kind of screwed as far as the car goes 

Unfortunately, yes

you may have to go back and ask him what didnt add up..... the timing is set as follows, you lock the crank with a pin through the front, and to tell if its in the correct position, on the lower inner crank pulley, the slot in the pulley should be between the two webs on the lower face of the engine, then to set the cams.... pop the rear camshaft seal blanking caps out.... install the timing tool, and that is your timing set for belt removal. So you'd need to maybe ask him how he timed it up etc.

The problem is, IF he did do it incorrectly, he's not going to admit to it, so would just say he did it as per standard procedure. Unfortunately, i think in this case Mr Rossi is going to paying for it regardless of fault

 

[MikeClio172SPT]

I will try to ask him directly today.

well good luck in sorting it. Id maybe ask like a casual question about it, along the lines of, are these engines especially hard to time up then, any special tools needed, as if you come across as if somethings gone wrong, he might clam up & not tell u anything lol, but again might not be anything he has done.

 

[Mr Rossi]

I will try to ask him directly today.

This is what the technician said;

Hi Mate, I did quickly read ur message b4 Xmas and meant to reply but its been hectic with all the usual Xmas goings on. Other than the car, hope U had a good one. I'm back in on 2nd I think so until we've looked at it there's little I could guess at. Cars are complicated so taking any guess would be silly. There's always a process of elimination to work thro. Strange one tho,...i did have a few question marks over a few things with it that may have been b4 U owned it. I was just little unsure of what had been done to it previously, if anything? We'll get on in new year. Until then, have a good one.

Few things,..firstly when I plugged the laptop in to read ECU it came back telling me it was a clio V6 with different chassis number. I had to manually input the vehicle data to read memory which is strange. This could only be changed by trained personel using Renault software. When it was programmed from new at dealership it would've been as a 182. Not a major problem but an indication that someone has been in there fiddling. Also I started to wonder if it was running standard cams or if they had been changed before U had it.

When U were in sat morn, there were no electrical memory faults in ECU. **** tweaked a few settings and it was better but I still wasn't convinced it was happy at idle. So that's when I have to start thinking about the mechanical side of things. I hate Bosch plugs (they're crap and prone to missfire at high temp) so changed them for NGK and gave it back to see how U got on. If U start changing more than one thing without solid proof of fault U never actually know which was faulty. And still I wasn't happy with idle. That's when I started thinking in a bit more depth, and I remembered a comment U made about how quick it was compared to ur cosworth etc and also the cams didnt line up perfectly before I took it apart, which can be a sign they were modded as with some aftermarket cams, they have to be fitted a little off standard line to allow a smooth idle.

 

[Jay_G]

So from that, the timing could of been off BEFORE they touched it?

 

[MikeClio172SPT]

So from that, the timing could of been off BEFORE they touched it?

but when going to install the correct timing tool, if it was out, you wouldnt be able to install the crank or cam tools, the belt would have to be released to square the timing up to fit the tools.... he would have spotted this.

 

[MikeClio172SPT]

anyway bed times....... what ifs..... why's that..... needs to be stripped & investigated to see why failure has happened, might be a genuine failure.

 

[Ryanj]

So from that, the timing could of been off BEFORE they touched it?

Quite possibly. But surely, if he suspected aftermarket cams beforehand, he should have investigated further, knowing that IF they were aftermarket, he may well be incorrectly timing them? (with the potential to cause casastrophic failure)

 

[Fred@BTM]

Exactly my point, timing was out, it had touched a valve previously.

only 1 valve though?

 

[smokeybone]

Hit the nail on the head there mr Fred surely if it was timing it would have damaged more than one valve. People on here are so quick to jump on the timing band wagon regardless of the fact that these engines do s**t them selfs occasionally

 

[Mr Rossi]

Hit the nail on the head there mr Fred surely if it was timing it would have damaged more than one valve. People on here are so quick to jump on the timing band wagon regardless of the fact that these engines do s**t them selfs occasionally

Like I said, I'm not jumping to any conclusions, I'm off down there in a few hours to check it out. Will keep you all posted.

 

[Martin.]

That is written pretty badly and doesn't look very professional.

Do you know this guy/garage personally of just from previous use? Is he a friend or just someone you use?

I'd like to know who it is please? Could you PM me? I won't mention it publicly before you decide too, if you even do that is.

Either way it's a sh*t situation to be in and as said by yourself and others it needs further investigation before anything is concluded.

Good luck.

 

[bmh.01]

This is what the technician said;

Hi Mate, I did quickly read ur message b4 Xmas and meant to reply but its been hectic with all the usual Xmas goings on. Other than the car, hope U had a good one. I'm back in on 2nd I think so until we've looked at it there's little I could guess at. Cars are complicated so taking any guess would be silly. There's always a process of elimination to work thro. Strange one tho,...i did have a few question marks over a few things with it that may have been b4 U owned it. I was just little unsure of what had been done to it previously, if anything? We'll get on in new year. Until then, have a good one.

Few things,..firstly when I plugged the laptop in to read ECU it came back telling me it was a clio V6 with different chassis number. I had to manually input the vehicle data to read memory which is strange. This could only be changed by trained personel using Renault software. When it was programmed from new at dealership it would've been as a 182. Not a major problem but an indication that someone has been in there fiddling. Also I started to wonder if it was running standard cams or if they had been changed before U had it.

When U were in sat morn, there were no electrical memory faults in ECU. **** tweaked a few settings and it was better but I still wasn't convinced it was happy at idle. So that's when I have to start thinking about the mechanical side of things. I hate Bosch plugs (they're crap and prone to missfire at high temp) so changed them for NGK and gave it back to see how U got on. If U start changing more than one thing without solid proof of fault U never actually know which was faulty. And still I wasn't happy with idle. That's when I started thinking in a bit more depth, and I remembered a comment U made about how quick it was compared to ur cosworth etc and also the cams didnt line up perfectly before I took it apart, which can be a sign they were modded as with some aftermarket cams, they have to be fitted a little off standard line to allow a smooth idle.

1. Dealers don't program f**k all.
2. VIN number is usually pulled from the airbag computer not the ecu.
3. He can't/won't have "changed settings".
4. Even if its had cams they still time up as per OEM.

Looks like it was badly written by a typical arsehole who is fobbing you off. But it's a little too much he said/she said to come to a useful conclusion I think.

 

[Dan@SJM]

1. Dealers don't program f**k all.
2. VIN number is usually pulled from the airbag computer not the ecu.
3. He can't/won't have "changed settings".
4. Even if its had cams they still time up as per OEM.

Looks like it was badly written by a typical arsehole who is fobbing you off. But it's a little too much he said/she said to come to a useful conclusion I think.

The only exception to this is 197 cams, however afaik mine, mikes and Lesley's are the only ones running this setup.

 

[Munson]

Programmed from new as a 182 by the dealer? WHAT?

I don't wish to stir trouble in a situation that has nothing to do with me, but this one line alone is cast iron proof that whoever wrote that statement is, at best, talking s**t. Sorry.

 

[DannyR]

That email wasn't the best grammatically was it?!

I would say he's trying to fob you off as he has used multiple excuses. Most of which aren't true or he has no evidence against.

I'd be very weary and try getting someone from here to go down with you that maybe knows a bit more about the engines and the correct timing procedure.

You could also ask what procedure he used, if he says Autodata then straight away you'll know he's fucked it up

 

[MikeClio172SPT]

only 1 valve though?

i doubt it hit just one valve to be honest. take it apart soon see.

 

[Munson]

Or maybe one valve was knocked when they first turned the engine over, and the timing was then done again?

Ether way, that entire quoted communication has an air of smoke screen about it.

 

[MikeClio172SPT]

I'd be very weary and try getting someone from here to go down with you that maybe knows a bit more about the engines and the correct timing procedure.

The Procedure is in one of my previous posts somewhere

 

[Sir_Dave]

Surely if it had aftermarket cams he could have just had a look to see what they were?

 

[MikeClio172SPT]

Surely if it had aftermarket cams he could have just had a look to see what they were?

He'd have had to removed the cam carrier (rocker cover) to see this. but they should time up as OEM.

 

[Jay_G]

i doubt it hit just one valve to be honest. take it apart soon see.

He's talking about the car he did the Cambelt him self on (done belt, had slightly bent valve, now tappets are fucked), he mentioned it earlier on in the thread. Nothing to do with OP

 

[Mr Rossi]

That is written pretty badly and doesn't look very professional.

Do you know this guy/garage personally of just from previous use? Is he a friend or just someone you use?

I'd like to know who it is please? Could you PM me? I won't mention it publicly before you decide too, if you even do that is.

Either way it's a sh*t situation to be in and as said by yourself and others it needs further investigation before anything is concluded.

Good luck.

The guy was a school friend, he now works at a specialist Renault garage. I didn't know he worked there before I took the car there, and I didn't ask for him specifically to work on my car. I took my car there because of the garages rep. Can you PM me as to why you need to know?

The above text is a FB message he sent me after I contacted the garage the day after the car was recovered there, and I told him via FB what had happened.

I will keep you posted.

 

[Mr Rossi]

She has dropped just one valve.... Thinking its just a failure.