Viper vs ITG vs Std air box

[Andyman]

Of late it seems there's a few topics floating about that suggest Vipers are now even worse than the standard 172 air box and will lose you power and its best to keep the standard air box on all be it slightly modded with panel filter etc !!

Does anyone have any ''concrete'' proof or evidence that Vipers will lose you power and torque ?? or is it a case of folk jumping on the band wagon thing that they must be because someone 'in the know' said so ??

Is it a case of if a Viper isnt mapped they pants or is it their pants even if the cars mapped / modded ??

On a standard 172 and say a mapped / modded 172 which is recommended ?? (in order if poss)

1- Standard air box

2- Standard air box with after market filter

3- Viper

4- ITG Maxogen

 

[Batman]

i have a viper with the cold air feed pipe to the front and it seems quicker through the rev range to me and a little more crisp i'd say the worth the money and in the event of having more mods done i know it can suck up all the cold air it needs

 

[Djw John]

I know Alan took his off very quickly cos it made a noticeable drop in his 182

 

[Andyman]

I fitted mine before it was modded and it felt like it made a big difference in performance. Got the car quite heavily modded now so wondering if the Viper is zapping a few ponies and torque or is it just a case of some unfounded evidence coming out making me paranoid that i could be losing grunt with it.

Hate it when opinions change about something which was once deemed good hahaha

 

[Maz]

This should be interesting .. popcorn anyone

On a serious note I will be very interested to see the outcome of this discussion

 

[Batman]

in the b and end all the all suck air up the actualy amount of bhp is minimal between variants so it doesnt really matter as it really wont effect the performance to a massive degree..... case closed

 

[Andyman]

If you fit a IK and get a drop in power to me the reason would be you have a inbalance in your fueling due to it leaning off rather than the actual unit being crap??

 

[MarkM]

I had a viper and changed to a maxogen as I had heard some bad reviews.

When I had the car remapped (done live on the road) the car required more fuelling throughout the rev range. Not a massive difference but every little helps.

Heres a bit more info. from a previous post

emailed the company Jesske mentioned I think there from Belgium www.cliosport.org. Got a reply within the hour! I was asking what he thought about the cup intake arrangement vs. the viper.

"I have to check the up to date price for a few people already. I sold many of these, but because of the new RS, prices are changed. I will inform you asap
I can tell you that it won't give you more performance than an ITG filter and that ITG is much better quality. You have to keep in mind that everything they use in Cup is as standard it can be, because they don't care if it's broken the first or second time, they just put another one in it. That means quality is not allways as good as an aftermarket product. I know many tuners love the Viper besides the ITG, but we measured powerlosses in some rpm ranges with the Viper. The ITG is absolutely the best filter you can get

If you want my honest opinion, I wouldn't do this mod because you won't notice the difference with the changes you already did. You've spent lots of money on your mods and if I were you, I would spent my money on an ITG"

So a maxogen is better then a viper for power according to him and dont bother with the cup car bits. Pretty helpful and honest really.

 

[powello9]

I've been recommended a K&N 57i, as it incorparates the cold air feed. Anyone tried one? Also when the car is moving, is cold air not being pushed around the engine and pushing the temperature down anyways?

 

[rory182]

in the b and end all the all suck air up the actualy amount of bhp is minimal between variants so it doesnt really matter as it really wont effect the performance to a massive degree..... case closed

I totally DISAGREE

drive a 172 / 182 on a cold day fine and dandy
drive it on a hot day its s**t, heat soaked and really lethargic and unresponsive, definitely power drop. And that's just with the standard set up.

Viper is worse particularly on a hot day, any open IK will slow your car, ask Rufstuf, Ali, Alan etc...

ITG Maxogen seems a better setup, definitely need a good cold air feed.

 

[powello9]

I've got a standard 182 and it was pants on the really hot days, so there must be a difference. The standard box wouldn't have been designed with a cold intake if it made no difference also.

 

[rory182]

yeah but the standard air box is far better than an open induction kit. hence the most popular mod there is an ITG panel filter in the standard air box.

a cold air feed to the a hole in the standard airbox would be better IMO (if done properly)

 

[spirez]

If anyone wants a Viper for a 1.2 16v mine is going for a reasonable price!

 

[len_beach]

In my eyes, the standard airbox is better than a Viper/Maxogen purely from the point of view that a properly modded (Panel, feed, silicone elbow) standard airbox will only cost around £65. A Viper is approx £200 and a Maxogen is circa £380. That's not VFM in my eyes especially considering none of them can make any tangible positive difference.

Ben

 

[jayxx83]

^^^ I agree.

 

[MarkM]

In my eyes, the standard airbox is better than a Viper/Maxogen purely from the point of view that a properly modded (Panel, feed, silicone elbow) standard airbox will only cost around £65. A Viper is approx £200 and a Maxogen is circa £380. That's not VFM in my eyes especially considering none of them can make any tangible positive difference.

Ben

I agree with this ^ unless you are going all out on the engine dont bother.

 

[powello9]

Does modding the standard airbox change the engine note?

 

[len_beach]

Does modding the standard airbox change the engine note?

No, however my exhaust has probably masked any change. You don't change the fundamentals of the airbox though, you simply optimise them so you may get slightly more noise but nothing like an open filter for example.

 

[Lagerlout]

Well I disagree. My car isn't as good bottom end without the Maxogen (and ECU/remap btw - pointless without imho). Not by miles, but enought to be noticeable. But you pays your moeny you takes your choice. The standard system on the Ph2 172/182 is a compromise of noise/emitions and power. If you want power, there are undoubtedly better things out there. Ben R is a well respected tuner on here and what does/did he sell? ITG Maxogen.

No only that the Maxogen looks and sounds the nuts. lol. But then agsain it should for £300.

 

[Norris_309]

what difference does a siliconoe elbow to the standard airbox make? (just out of interest)

 

[Lagerlout]

At a guess, on it's own, f**k all. Nothing you'd notice at least.

I can see two points why people change it

A) Because they come in pretty colours and look nice.
B) As part of a whole new induction system.

 

[len_beach]

Well I disagree. My car isn't as good bottom end without the Maxogen (and ECU/remap btw - pointless without imho). Not by miles, but enought to be noticeable. But you pays your money you takes your choice. The standard system on the Ph2 172/182 is a compromise of noise/emitions and power. If you want power, there are undoubtedly better things out there. Ben R is a well respected tuner on here and what does/did he sell? ITG Maxogen.

No only that the Maxogen looks and sounds the nuts. lol. But then agsain it should for £300.

I think that statement says it all though. I wasn't saying the standard box is the best out and out performance setup but I feel it is the best compromise and best value for money. I am far too tight to spend £300 on an airbox when I can mod my own and have the satisfaction of fiddling under the bonnet improving things at the same time.
As you said Laingo, you pays your money, you takes your choice.

what difference does a siliconoe elbow to the standard airbox make? (just out of interest).

It makes very little difference again to be honest. It will smoothe the airflow a little as the elbow will not have the ridges the factory item has so will be a little less restrictive. The item I have fitted is fully sealed as the breather pipe has been vented. This should 'clean up' the inlet as the recycled crankcase gasses will be kept away from the intake allowing more oxygen into the cylinders thus increasing power (reputedly).

 

[Lagerlout]

I think that statement says it all though. I wasn't saying the standard box is the best out and out performance setup but I feel it is the best compromise and best value for money. I am far too tight to spend £300 on an airbox when I can mod my own and have the satisfaction of fiddling under the bonnet improving things at the same time.
As you said Laingo, you pays your money, you takes your choice.


It makes very little difference again to be honest. It will smoothe the airflow a little as the elbow will not have the ridges the factory item has so will be a little less restrictive. The item I have fitted is fully sealed as the breather pipe has been vented. This should 'clean up' the inlet as the recycled crankcase gasses will be kept away from the intake allowing more oxygen into the cylinders thus increasing power (reputedly).

Yes, but I was disagreeing with the statement you made that it makes no tangible difference when you don't appear to have any first hand experience. I have - The maxogen made a difference over an OE airbox with a panel filter.

No doubt the difference in power is not proportional to the difference price though!!

 

[rich[182]]

Would it be worth covering the std airbox with several layers of thick tin foil to reflect any heat to minimise heat soak ? Come to think of it could you even cover the silicon inlet elbow too so everythings covered from cold feed right through to engine inlet

 

[kully]

i'm happy with my viper.....................dont care what the reviews are .

 

[len_beach]

Yes, but I was disagreeing with the statement you made that it makes no tangible difference when you don't appear to have any first hand experience. I have - The maxogen made a difference over an OE airbox with a panel filter.

No doubt the difference in power is not proportional to the difference price though!!

I don't have any experience of the Maxogen but I do have of the Viper which didn't impress me unfortunatley, hence my statement that they made no tangible positive difference. The Viper has tainted my view of the Maxogen, maybe wrongly so.
Again, you've just about summed it up for this tight aresed Yorkshireman:

No doubt the difference in power is not proportional to the difference price though!!

 

[len_beach]

Would it be worth covering the std airbox with several layers of thick tin foil to reflect any heat to minimise heat soak ? Come to think of it could you even cover the silicon inlet elbow too so everythings covered from cold feed right through to engine inlet

You could but have you ever felt the heat that is produced by the plenham after a drive. As soon as the air is cooled, it will be heated again on its way back through the intake. This may be an area to look into but the gains probably wouldn't justify the cost/amount of effort involved.

 

[Andyman]

If a air box is no better than a IK why then in most cases does a car run slightly lean when a half decent IK is fitted?? Surley this is proof that the rate of air flow has been increased thus once mapped will give better gains over the standard set up ??

You dont need to map a standard air box so surley if you need to when you have a IK bolted up a IK must be better at its intended job?

Im just wondering if in ''most'' cases the folk who think that a IK is zapping performance are the ones who have never had there car mapped thus have a negative view of them?

 

[rich[182]]

^ good point re. the running lean, makes sense what your saying

Also theres a mag out at the mo with a feature on several RS Clio's being tested (Yozza, Morego, BBPT etc) and one of the BBPT cars has a 200ish conversion using an open Green cone filter, If they are that bad why does a reputable Renault specialist such as BBPT sell them and run them ?

 

[rory182]

aye but naw.

Open IK will kill power in the heat, needs a very good cold air feed. Rufstuf has a 172 cup and on a hot day last year we went to Knockhill, he was sturggling to keep up with my 182 which is standard, he had an open IK and cat back zorst on.

He keeps up just fine now he has the standard air box back on. whether its hot or cold.

 

[almaghrbi]

I tried the three of them in competition enviornment (Hot/cold, fast circuits slow cuircuts you name it) the order of their performance is
1) ITG Maxogen (especially above 80 mph to get the ram effect)
2) The standar air box (very good design cannot beat that!)
3) Viper (noticed drop in power but the increase in the noise makes you think it is faster!)

 

[nelson182]

aye but naw.

Open IK will kill power in the heat, needs a very good cold air feed. Rufstuf has a 172 cup and on a hot day last year we went to Knockhill, he was sturggling to keep up with my 182 which is standard, he had an open IK and cat back zorst on.

He keeps up just fine now he has the standard air box back on. whether its hot or cold.

I agree, a good cold air feed is a big factor. See my link on my cold air feed to my K&N 57i. I bought this years ago before I learnt the facts about heat soaking. Have now ordered a heat shield, so hoping this will improve things, but without losing the Induction roar that I have come to love! :approve:
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=152583

 

[The Bear]

Also theres a mag out at the mo with a feature on several RS Clio's being tested (Yozza, Morego, BBPT etc) and one of the BBPT cars has a 200ish conversion using an open Green cone filter, If they are that bad why does a reputable Renault specialist such as BBPT sell them and run them ?

Which mag mate?

 

[Neil G]

what difference does a siliconoe elbow to the standard airbox make? (just out of interest)

F-all is the answer to that.

IMHO induction kits are only worth fitting on turbo or heavily modified cars where the engines need for air exceeds the flow capacity of the standard airbox.

 

[clidge]

if you had an open kit with a stainless steel heat sheild and good feed from the front and elbow would this not be a good set up...i find it strange that on most highly tuned cars like made japense cars they all have open induction kits and the guy who had a 200bhp cup on her with cams chip the works he had a k&n kit ??? comments on this please guys

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah you'll see a decent gain out of an open filter on a rolling road, as 99% of the time a power run is done with the bonnet open = lots of air

do you drive round with your bonnet open???

 

[Dubai182]

yeah you'll see a decent gain out of an open filter on a rolling road, as 99% of the time a power run is done with the bonnet open = lots of air

do you drive round with your bonnet open???

Yes fred,i take this practice quite reguarly especially in 50 degree heat..

 

[nelson182]

yeah you'll see a decent gain out of an open filter on a rolling road, as 99% of the time a power run is done with the bonnet open = lots of air

do you drive round with your bonnet open???

This is where the arguement of 'Gains' is so exagerated. Because as Fred says you don't go around with your bonnet up. The only real way you will get some sort of similarity is with a good air feed away from direct engine heat :approve:

 

[ben_p]

i tried, viper, k&n 57i, K&n appolo, bmc, c/f simota....

then i got the mrk1 172 air box, samco bend, K&n pannel filter..and custom feeds

guess which one was best..

 

[Lagerlout]

Maxogen?