172 Cam options...

[Sean.]

Hi all, having the inlets matched this weekend, next step for me is cams.

Car is a 172 FF, 2002 52 plate. Current mods include, panel filter, cat back exh, matched inlets.

Fairly new to the whole 2.0 16v engine, coming from TU engines.

What are the cam choices available to me? ive done a search but all a bit scatered in terms of info.

Was hoping on keeping the std ECU with a remap...couple of questions involving this too...

Can the std ECU's be mapped enough to take some wild cams? (but not wild that i need to upgrade lifters/springs etc)

Would like to retain the std head. Just as wild a cam as is possible on stock head with remapped ecu.

Any info, thanks

Sean

 

[dunlop]

cat cam 428's sound like the best choice.

I've got 421's but mines on omex.

 

[Sean.]

was just going to mention that from my readin it seems that catcams 428's seem to work with std head and std ecu (obviusly with a remap)

how much do they retail for?

* Just found it, near £550

 

[Sean.]

how do you rate the power gains with cams, i know it wont be huge but worth spending £1000 on it all.

 

[Icarus]

Depends how much power you want. Biggest issue is the standard inlet manifold - you'll struggle to make more than 205bhp or so on it. With that in mind its questionable if its worth going to Cat 421's over 428's.

421's also cause quite a bit of pressure change in the inlet manifold at idle and low engine speed which causes the MAP sensor reading to swing. On DBW cars this causes a few 'issues'. You can remove the MAP sensor from the inlet manifold and fabricate a secondary MAP sensor plenum with a restrictor between it and the manifold to smooth the pressure signal to the map sensor and therefore the voltage signal the map sensor supplies to the ECU. A lot of work for potentialy little gain over CAT 428's though!

I'll be trying 28's and 21's in mine though so I'll let you know.

Cheers
M

 

[Icarus]

was just going to mention that from my readin it seems that catcams 428's seem to work with std head and std ecu (obviusly with a remap)

how much do they retail for?

* Just found it, near £550

Retail Price for 428's or 421's are £572.98 + vat per pair from QEP (UK Distributor for Cat Cams).

Cheers
M

 

[dunlop]

well i can say with 421's its very peaky, f**k all below 4k, but then when it hits 4k its booted up the arse and your off.
its kind of like a vtec. but with out the aggressive noise, reliability, and high rev's.
Do your research to who you have fit them. I'd recommend angel-works or APD. Theres others who i wouldn't recommend but I'm not legally allowed to say anything.

dont know what 428's are like.

 

[Sean.]

so for the hassle its worth, 428's are a easier option. To be honest im looking for something simple...eg drop in a new set of cams (428's) bolt tia ll back together and get the remap done. I'll be happy with that for a while!

Im familiar with QEP. quite a big name in the saxo world of things.

 

[Icarus]

well i can say with 421's its very peaky, f**k all below 4k, but then when it hits 4k its booted up the arse and your off.
its kind of like a vtec. but with out the aggressive noise, reliability, and high rev's.
Do your research to who you have fit them. I'd recommend angel-works or APD. Theres others who i wouldn't recommend but I'm not legally allowed to say anything.

dont know what 428's are like.

The 428's are a bit nicer to be honest, drove a 182 FF the other day with 28's in it and was quite impressed, idle is a little bit worse but not a great deal and once over 2200RPM or so it drives like a standard car. Won't pull in 5th at 1750RPM with them in though like a standard car will!

Seems to be a few places that don't quite understand how to fit cams in an F4R as I've been hearing of a few with squiffy cam timing recently.

Cheers
M

 

[Icarus]

so for the hassle its worth, 428's are a easier option. To be honest im looking for something simple...eg drop in a new set of cams (428's) bolt tia ll back together and get the remap done. I'll be happy with that for a while!

Im familiar with QEP. quite a big name in the saxo world of things.

Yep 428's and go and see Paul at RS Tuning in Leeds would be your best bet for an easy option.

Dropping the cams in/bolting it back together is a bit more complicated on an F4R though than a TU!

Cheers
M

 

[Sean.]

Yeah i can imagine...TU's are like lego!

is cold start affected when having cams changed (std ecu)

 

[dunlop]

Probably the same things i've heard too.

 

[Coby.]

I've heard 428's are the Best Option for the Mods that you are running

 

[dunlop]

Yeah i can imagine...TU's are like lego!

is cold start affected when having cams changed (std ecu)

if mapped to suit then shouldn't be.

when pulling mine apart yesterday found mine had a ford idle control valve fitted.

 

[Sean.]

ok thats cool, dont suppose there is a guide guide i can glance at knocking around?

am well able to fit them myself so just want to see whats involved?

 

[dunlop]

remove plenham,
lock at tdc,
remove cambelt cover,
lock pullies,
or use the timing tool to crack off the 2 17/18mm(think its 18) on the cams
remove pullies
remove cam cover
remove cams
refit.

 

[fil_b]

mate got 428 and they run really well

really nice pull in it thought the revs

get nice remap after and your laughing

 

[Icarus]

ok thats cool, dont suppose there is a guide guide i can glance at knocking around?

am well able to fit them myself so just want to see whats involved?

Ben from Angel Works has written an excellent F4 build article which includes details on how the engine goes together and how to correctly set cam timing using the Renault Tools (which you will need!).

http://www.angel-works.co.uk/articles/f4rbuild.php

Cheers
M

 

[fil_b]

Ben from Angel Works has written an excellent F4 build article which includes details on how the engine goes together and how to correctly set cam timing using the Renault Tools (which you will need!).

http://www.angel-works.co.uk/articles/f4rbuild.php

Cheers
M

there expensive 2

 

[Icarus]

there expensive 2

The tools? Certainly are and don't buy the mega cheap 25 quid cam locking tool as they're made of chocolate!!!

Cheers
M

 

[Andyman]

If its for road use youd be far better with a milder cam to get the power in lower down the rev range rather than peaking at the top.

Few of us on here have had your cars RR'd on Dyno Dynamics set up with various cam ratings and plenty of other mods to compliment and anywhere near 200bhp on a F4R in reality is just a pipe dream!

Theres a lot more to it than just figures tho

 

[Icarus]

If its for road use youd be far better with a milder cam to get the power in lower down the rev range rather than peaking at the top.

Few of us on here have had your cars RR'd on Dyno Dynamics set up with various cam ratings and plenty of other mods to compliment and anywhere near 200bhp on a F4R in reality is just a pipe dream!

Theres a lot more to it than just figures tho

200bhp is entirely possible on an F4R - Our endurance car produces over 200bhp all day (and all night) long. Do you mean on an F4R 730?

The inlet manifold design on the 730 is the biggest problem however with work and a well setup engine package high 190's - low 200's are possible whilst retaining the standard single throttle body/plenum setup. On a port throttle/ITB setup 200bhp is possible on the standard cam profiles!

Cheers
M

 

[mattjk]

I think Andy was just talking about aftermarket camshafts + bolt on goodies. Obviously 200+ is possibly with ITBs

 

[BenR]

I assume he means the 730-738 varients not your 8**'s.

I personally find even the 428 slightly peaky on road going clios, they do nothing much until 4000-4500rpm and make 182's feel almost gutless. That is cam only. If you concentrate on the critical restrictions and reasons for this, then its a good road cam.

 

[Icarus]

That is cam only. If you concentrate on the critical restrictions and reasons for this, then its a good road cam.

Thats a very good point Ben. IMHO changing cam profiles etc. should really be as part of a package of modifications rather than a single modification.

I still want to have a play with the inlet manifold design on the F4R 73X though as that's an area where big gains could be made.

The Formula Renaults have a nice inlet setup!

Cheers
M

 

[Andyman]

200bhp is entirely possible on an F4R - Our endurance car produces over 200bhp all day (and all night) long. Do you mean on an F4R 730?

The inlet manifold design on the 730 is the biggest problem however with work and a well setup engine package high 190's - low 200's are possible whilst retaining the standard single throttle body/plenum setup. On a port throttle/ITB setup 200bhp is possible on the standard cam profiles!

Cheers
M

Not sure what the 730 code is but i mean on the Ph1 / Ph2 172's and 182's with single TB set up and bolt on mods like, inlets, cams inductions and all mapped

It used to be claimed (even by some experts) on here that to get to 200 bhp you need cams, inlet and a couple of other bolt on goodies.

Going by my own and others the above bolt on mods dont seem to get anywhere near it on a single TB set up :S

 

[Andyman]

Thats a very good point Ben. IMHO changing cam profiles etc. should really be as part of a package of modifications rather than a single modification.

I still want to have a play with the inlet manifold design on the F4R 73X though as that's an area where big gains could be made.

The Formula Renaults have a nice inlet setup!



Cheers
M

Totally agree with you. Mods are about the bigger picture, complementing one another rather than sticking one component part onto a stock engine and expecting 10 brake lol

Good point on the inlet and plenum set up too. Theres loads of twists in the whole intake track which surely must harbour some decent gains

 

[BenR]

Thats a very good point Ben. IMHO changing cam profiles etc. should really be as part of a package of modifications rather than a single modification.

I still want to have a play with the inlet manifold design on the F4R 73X though as that's an area where big gains could be made.

The Formula Renaults have a nice inlet setup!

Cheers
M

The formula renault setup addresses the initial entry angle into the lower manifold, but packaging restrictions apply in the clio chassis (unless you dont mind an unsightly bonnet and . I've played a little bit with the FR setup and for the cost, its just not worth any gains it offers, as even still it needs modification of the core castings.

I'll forward you the replacement manifold design for the clio 172/182, bolt on and tries to make do with the limited space available in the aircon equipped cars.

 

[BenR]

Totally agree with you. Mods are about the bigger picture, complementing one another rather than sticking one component part onto a stock engine and expecting 10 brake lol

Good point on the inlet and plenum set up too. Theres loads of twists in the whole intake track which surely must harbour some decent gains

Precisely, as soon as someone starts barking pure flow figures at you, its an invitation to stop listning.

Rapid CSA changes and velocity, including inertial direction interuptions, are all that count. If you want pure flow, install a drainpipe.

 

[Icarus]

Not sure what the 730 code is but i mean on the Ph1 / Ph2 172's and 182's with single TB set up and bolt on mods like, inlets, cams inductions and all mapped

It used to be claimed (even by some experts) on here that to get to 200 bhp you need cams, inlet and a couple of other bolt on goodies.

Going by my own and others the above bolt on mods dont seem to get anywhere near it on a single TB set up :S

The inlet manifold is where it all is! Without doing work on this you'll be struggling. To see what I mean look at the difference in inlet manifold design between the 172/182 and the 197.

197 Engine:

1X2 Engine:

See how much tigher the 'bend' in the inlet manifold is.

Cheers
M

 

[BenR]

Not sure what the 730 code is but i mean on the Ph1 / Ph2 172's and 182's with single TB set up and bolt on mods like, inlets, cams inductions and all mapped

It used to be claimed (even by some experts) on here that to get to 200 bhp you need cams, inlet and a couple of other bolt on goodies.

Going by my own and others the above bolt on mods dont seem to get anywhere near it on a single TB set up :S

The 200bhp claim is the result of many tuners feeling the need to up the ante 5bhp at a time over the years to secure sales, it used to be 185 odd bhp lol. It happes in all markets.

 

[Icarus]

Note 197 inlet manifold is still very, very far from perfect. Its just less 'bad' than the 1X2 inlet manifold. LOL

Cheers
M

 

[BenR]

The inlet manifold is where it all is! Without doing work on this you'll be struggling. To see what I mean look at the difference in inlet manifold design between the 172/182 and the 197.

197 Engine:

1X2 Engine:

See how much tigher the 'bend' in the inlet manifold is.

Cheers
M

They have also adopted significant increases in CSA acrros the turns, its quite a horribly made manifold aswell lol.

 

[Icarus]

They have also adopted significant increases in CSA acrros the turns, its quite a horribly made manifold aswell lol.

Definately the casting quality and finish (both surface and fit) is rubbish!

 

[Andyman]

Theres a euro company who sells a similer plenum set up to the 197 all be it a bit naff looking.
Not sure what the company is or if the gains are any good etc but im sure its DP something the brand?

 

[mattjk]

Is that a cat on the F1 car?

Looks like a 1*2 coilpack aswell lol!

 

[Icarus]

Is that a cat on the F1 car?

Looks like a 1*2 coilpack aswell lol!

Yes its a Cat, neccesary in most motorsport these days. It is a 1X2 coil pack, even the newer 197 Cup cars run wasted spark of one. Not a great deal of point in COP for a race car.

Cheers
M

 

[Icarus]

Oh and that's not an F1 car, its a Formula Renault 2.0. Similar to an F1 car but several tens of millions of quid less ;-)

Cheers
M

 

[Adey.]

the inlet ports on a 197 are huge compared to the 172 and 182, would be good to see if you would gain anything from bolting a 197 head on a earlyer bottom end, if it was possible that is??

 

[BenR]

bigger rarely means better.