172 Induction kit with std filter housing

[Cord-172]

Hey guys,

I fitted my induction kit today as I was bored as poo. Half way through ripping out the old filter housing I decided that surely it would function fairly effectively as a heat shield for the induction cone? (Had to be better than leaving the cone open in the engine bay) + The existing housing contains 2 cold air feeds from the front of the car.

Anyway, a little swearing, cable ties and some hoseclips saw me fit the thing in quite well! I started her up and took her for a drive and I must admit I was pleasently suprised. I cant hear a "whoosh" when I accelerate (probably because its in the existing housing) but it does seem to growl a lot more at me and pulled a bit more than usual when I had a mate in the car. The initial pickup is a bit better when you slam your foot on the floor too.

I will try and get some pictures for this forum

Do filters take any time to wear in like new exhausts?

 

[paddymph]

nope.

 

[silou]

hi cord , what cone have you used .as i was thinking down the same lines cone filter like piper or k&n and use the old box as a sheild.cheers cord let me no.











7n

 

[Simon]

The cone filter that BB tuning do is supposed to be a good one. The key is to shield these from heat. They are supposed to inhale more air than the closed induction kits although I swear by my BMC. The key with cone filters is to use a heat shield like cord has designed.

I will eventually be going for a large cone filter which is in a custom heat shielding case that has cold air fed in through bonnet vents (similar to the new ford rallyeconcept). I reckon this will provide the best setup if you want to go the whole hog.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

I currently have a K&N 57i fitted. I have been a K&N fan for several years. Like all good filter installations they need clean air feeds. At this time of year (Scottish climate) and on the open roads there is a noticable difference in 172 pickup/throttle response. It also sounds gorgeous on load and at 4K+ However around town when heated up power/response is probably down.

My "ultimate" installation in the past was a K&N on my old 3L V6 Scimitar. I installed a front facing air scoop on the fibreglass bonnet just right in front of the filter. The improvements were immediately obvious in normal conditions until it rained heavily (flooded the filter!) or was very cold (carb completely freezed!!) So, by extreme measures I think this proves the point.

I am currently working on a prototype heatshield (time permitting) that will use the fixing points of the standard airbox. This will pretty much isolate the main engine bay from the filter cone area. I am convinced that an open cone filter in a cold air chamber will breath better than a "forced" closed cone arrangement (about to be flamed!!!!). For one there will be less air turbulence and greater volume around the cone allowing improved air flow. To get any ram air effect on the closed filter designs you probably have to be doing 150 mph+ and have an efficient air scoop!! The reason they do work over open cones is that they are being fed with clean cold air.

Watch this space!!

 

[JoZeFF]

I DISAGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



(just didnt want to dissapoint u... )

 

[Flying Scotsman]

I value your opinion JoZeFF.

Please dont take this the wrong way, but please tell me some reasons behind your thoughts? I have given my theory for what it may be worth, whats yours?

 

[BenR]

dont start the whole ram air thing again LOL....

and i dont think anybody designed them for ram air, more so for just pure col air isolation. But why should an open one work better....a simple steel heatshield etc is like putting a sheet steel door between you and a house on fire, not gonna do much.

and there is basically no restriction on any of the filters we use.........my tiny ITG item on my ford is rated to 260bhp!!!!

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Hi Ben!

Not flaming, just having polite debate!

As I said before "Ram Air" effects dont really come into the equation unless you have an efficient air dam and sufficient speed.

...... Sheet steel, aluminium or carbon fibre what difference does it really make? You will never get a perfect heat shield. The Viper etc etc still uses a basic heat shield design. So whats the difference between an open cone working in a cold air chamber and a closed fed system? A closed system has to suck air via an "elephants trunk" creating a restriction on air flow? Surely this is the reason why we put cone filters as close as possible to the TBs? Try breathing in quickly through your mouth then try the same via a long tube ..... which is easiest?

LOL

 

[BenR]

well, if the diameter of the tube is sufficiently large enouhg i.e. 100mm......then there will be no restricion.

and the diff between a viper, bmc and a cone in a compart ment, is that the air will still have to be based in the engine compartmant, giving more change of heating due to larger volume and time. Its almost impossible to seal off form engine bay air etc etc.

but of course youll never get a parfect heatshield, we need to start workin wiht gold foil! LOL

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Yeh. OK 100mm is a pretty big tube, if only we could find the space to fed this down the front of the clio engine compartment! Good point though about the air volume/heat exchange .... acts like a bigger heat exchanger.

Isnt gold a better conductor of heat than other metals? Would look the dogs danglies though even if it did cost a fortune!! Probably plastic, fibreglass or carbon fibre are better heat insulators, but not easy materials to use on custom designs.

Still reckon a well managed open cone against the closed filter design will have nothing to talk about between them in terms of power. The open cone will of course sound better. Obviously the enclosed system is easy to mass produce, fits many applications requires less space and is much easier to install.

Oh dear ..... have I just conceded!? LOL

 

[Cord-172]

I will take a photo of what I have done and try to post it on the forum (Still havent figured out how to do this yet though!!) I do believe it has given me some power gain (more noticeable when I have a mate in the car - possibly increased torque?). Obviously its not massive but the sound is great (even though it is more sealed than intended). I cant hear the whoosh of the filter but I do hear a very deep burbling that when accelerating that sounds so much more healthy than the original unit provided. - As is I say it sounds like a ferrari now. Will eventually get the lot chipped and remapped too.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Cheers Cord-172, would be interested to see what you have done. If you need someone to host the picture let me know. Like all these experiments .... you never know the outcome until you try! Often the best laid plans can turn out to be crap, but then on the other hand the cheap and easy solutions can often reap the best benefits. Sorry to deviate from your original post but just cant resist healthy debate with the knowlegeable (cheers Ben ) Thats what these forums are all about

 

[Simon]

Well ive got a cold air BMC kit and im not complaining. However I reckon Ford know a few things when it comes to tuning cars and am intrigued with they way they have done things on the rallye concept. So much so that im going to try it on my clio. Then what I will do is compare the BMC with the cone filter, bonnet vent and carbon air bucket thingie. My hunch is the cone filter will give more. Im no expert when it comes to tuning cars and so far doing a few things on my car has got results so hopefully this will as well.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Hi Simon, what components have you got in mind for your "bonnet vent and carbon air bucket thingie" experiment? Have you a MKI or MKII 172?

 

[Simon]

Hi Scotsman. Ive got a MK1. Currently devil decat, magnex 6x4 and BMC cold air induction kit with bumper scoop. Putting out about 150 bhp @ the wheels if i take the average of two runs on the same rolling road. Estimated 180 bhp @ flywheel.

Have spoke to BenR quite a bit about this and what im going for is the following:

Ported/Modified Inlet Manifold

70mm throttle body

Custom piping from throttle body to a Large Green Cone filter

The Cone filter will be housed in a large carbon bucket which will seal onto underneath of bonnet. This will act as a heat shield and cold air collection point. Holes in bottom to let any water out.

Bonnet will have vents cut in directing cold air from outside straight in to bucket.

Then modified ecu to take into account fueling/ignition etc.

I reckon this will be good for 190 bhp at least.

Seems a common sense approach to extra power if you dont mind screwing around and losing your warranty on various bits. Ive been advised not to touch head or cams as they are supposed to be very good as std.

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by Flying Scotsman on 29 December 2002

Cheers Cord-172, would be interested to see what you have done. If you need someone to host the picture let me know. Like all these experiments .... you never know the outcome until you try! Often the best laid plans can turn out to be crap, but then on the other hand the cheap and easy solutions can often reap the best benefits. Sorry to deviate from your original post but just cant resist healthy debate with the knowlegeable (cheers Ben ) Thats what these forums are all about

Indeed! these discussions are the dogs!

anyway, i doubt there will be any dif between my closed and your semi-open design, except the amount of work gone into it, simply because the scope for power gain and improvement through induction mods alone is low.

Si:

Thats a great plan and should see you upping power by a fair amount. And true, unless you are prepared to go the whole hog and really bow the weed out your motor, then leaving the head and cams (if you can find a set that are up to quality) alone is a wise move. Although, small increaes in port flow and volume will increase peak power, whilst reducing very very low rpm torque merely due to a larger port volume displacement and hence velocity will decrease. But it will allow you to make more power higher up the RPM scale.

 

[Simon]

Hi Ben, before I go for the whole cone and bonnet affair im going to try out my existing BMC which luckily has a 70mm diameter outlet going to the throttle body !. How cool is that. Just need to get that custom pipe with 70mm at both ends. What is the purpose of that small rubber aux. pipe (throttle body end.) that comes of the main induction pipe?

I know hill power has had a custom pipe made up for his induction kit so it must ber fairly straight forward getting it done ! Do you know who he uses for this stuff?

 

[Cord-172]

He uses Samco/Hill Power silicone tubing from what i have seen Geoff_Clio172 posted a picture of it on a similar discussion recently (Do a search under Ram Air as I started a topic a while ago with the intention of getting hold of the rest of the Hill power induction components (except the cone as i already had it)

 

[BenR]

that little take off bit on the link pipe from aibox to TB is the breather pipe inlet.

When you take it off, you will the TB is coated in a very tacky tarry substance which is basically extra fine dust mixed with oil vapors, and its not harmful to performance so dont worry about it.

Why dont you see if you cna purchase a link pipe fom Hill power than fit it to your airbox?

 

[N.D.Hill]

We have had the inlet pipe made for us (but not by Samco). We can supply the hose kit as a seperate item, it is supplied over sized in length so that it cab be cut down to suit most aftermarket ind kits. Kit comprises hose, jubilee clips and breather take off elbow. The retail price is £47.50 inc vat (discount for Cliosport members) We also have an under bumper scoop and spot lamp scoop for the Mk2 172. For more info you can mail us from our web site www.hillpower.co.uk