172 Tarmac Rally Car

[Tony Hunter]

Yes, that's what I've done, shim for toe and shim for camber.

I can't remember now, but I think it's :5deg =1mm on a 15inch wheel. I'll try and check.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Found it.


​1 deg = 3.3mm on a 15 inch wheel.

So :5deg each side would give you a total of 3mm. Rough guide I know.

 

[sam JFM]

Better than no guide at all tony.


Out of curiosity where did you get the info from?

 

[Tony Hunter]

From 2 different sources, to see if they were the same. It works.

 

[Wayne-G]

What tyre pressures were you running? More pressure in the front tyres could cause some understeer possibly

 

[Pauleds]

Yes it was! great laugh!

I think that was my car for a while, you got it from Paul Dark didn't you?
That was the 2nd XS I've had, and I've had loads of gti's too.
(still got a 1900 gti on the drive)
Clio is a vast improvement over a 205 though.

 

[Tony Hunter]

What tyre pressures were you running? More pressure in the front tyres could cause some understeer possibly

Alright for fine tuning. But Clio standard rear toe, is toe in, the safer option.

 

[sam JFM]

I think that was my car for a while, you got it from Paul Dark didn't you?
That was the 2nd XS I've had, and I've had loads of gti's too.
(still got a 1900 gti on the drive)
Clio is a vast improvement over a 205 though.

Thats the one! How you doing? I also had some gtx rims off you I think?

 

[sam JFM]

I dont know would be the truth but it's such a short lap I dont think you get much increase and I started with more pressure in the rear.

Obviously tyre compound and temp will have played a part but it wasn't lack of front end grip more lack of willingness to respond.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Shame your so far away.

 

[sam JFM]

How come?

 

[Tony Hunter]

I'd have a look for you, thats all.

I would get a laser print out, that way you can see where you are to start with. I found my rear beam to be slightly out each side, so needed different shims to even it up.

 

[sam JFM]

That would be good, do you get to Oulton at any point?

I will try to get one sorted it would give a useful starting point.

​Do you adjust your own geo?

 

[Tony Hunter]

I come up occasionally, maybe twice a year as well as race there.

Self adjust yes, but then always get it checked afterwards.
[h=3][/h]

 

[sam JFM]

So Update time...

The car is finished and completed its first event!

I haven't been very good at this project thread business. A quick update on the car - its now fitted with the roll centre adjustment kit, great piece of kit! I don't know how much it has added to the grip and drive of the car if I'm honest, but that is purely because rallying is very different to track work and I don't have a comparison but its certainly well made.

So onto the first event.

SMC stages 2014

Weeton army barracks near Preston, first time we have ever been to weeton but have heard some fearsome reports about the curbs (which I did have an altercation with!)

SS1 was wet so on with the R1R's - not a bad start to the day, a spin on a 90 right cost us some time but it was all about getting some seat time and push for times later on.

Fast forward to SS4 - slight right... BANG!!! yup one of the weeton curbs!, genuinely thought we had smashed the wheel and were off for an early bath but no! The 1.2's held up and so did the tyre, although when we got back to service the top mount bearing had popped in half but we were still able to keep going. (good piece of kit the PMS top mounts)

Stage 6 found us with no alternator, not sure what happened but we had to rely on swapping battery's with a road going Clio (Thanks Carl)

A couple of driver and Co-driver errors meant we had 4 stage maximums! oops! but it was really a shake down event , we set 12th fastest stage time on SS8 and 4th fastest in class which I am chuffed about considering its a standard engine competing against powerful K20 powered C2's and throttle bodied XE Astra's and its the first time we have been out in four years.

Now its trying to find another even for may time - any suggestions?

Brilliant day! Big thanks to my co driver Angus and service man carl!

Pictures to follow

 

[NorthloopCup]

Told you the hubs were strong! :clap:

 

[sam JFM]

Very strong!

 

[sam JFM]

Another update:


The car has competed at Abingdon car-nival stages and put in some good stage times.


The springs were way too soft which is something I had been thinking for a while. As a result I upped the spring rates to 375lb fronts and 500lb rears.




Soooo


Last weekend was the patriot stages at caerwent.

Me nor the co-driver have ever done caerwent before. as with weeton we had been warned before hand about the large wheel removing curbs, they look huge when your sat in a low car!.

Had a few issues with a bulging radiator when the car was pre event checked but got that sorted and headed down to Caldecott.

Arrived on Saturday and scrutineered, pleasingly the car passed again without a hitch.

So onto Sunday!

SS1.
Massive learning curve, I mean like vertical!

The whole complex is brilliant, the maps though don't do the different types of corner any justice. A 90 right could be anything from a wide open 90 to a corner that is about a cars width, making confidence hard to build.

Caught one of the curbs but didn't do any damage, got though the stage feeling much happier with the car now I have stiffened it up.

Time was quite slow in reality but we were pleased as the whole complex is a challenge - build up the confidence and then push on.

SS2.

Better run in ss2, had a tank slapper moment but caught it and by the end of the stage we had started to catch our 30 second man.

SS3

cancelled for the lower running crews due to a marshal falling ill but we got to drive some of the stage non comp, the slow run allowed us to make some notes of the tighter corners when would help with SS4.

SS4

Got a good run though well sort of... much quicker in here the notes had really helped with the confidence, some quick narrow sections around the back of the site that have a right left kink but are essentially flat out. About half way through I had pretty much caught my 30 second man then had a spin, lucky to get away with it really but we did.

I stalled had to restart the engine and spin it around and got going again!

Having made a tool of myself spinning behind the car in front I went into maximum attack mode to catch him up again! which we did but couldn't pass with it being so tight.

So over the flying finish we went bumper to bumper lifted off and slowed for the stop board, looked in the mirror and there was a definite blue smoke emanating from the car.

got to the arrival control and the wiff of gear oil was quite pronounced, back into service oil everywhere under the bonnet! C*CK!

Took the sump guard off to find bits of gearbox casing on the guard - that was us out...


Not quite sure yet what has failed or why, the car still selects all gears and makes no whining but is lacking all its gear oil. Need to strip it down ASAP and replace the box for the Neil Howard at the beginning of November.


Caerwent is a brilliant venue and will defiantly be going back in march for the tour of caerwent in march!



Now where are the spanners...

 

[p@blo]

Good write up Sam, sounds like you had a decent outing. Are you after a box casing -if so what variant is yours?

 

[sam JFM]

Not sure yet, I think it's going to be a total new box.

Its just strange that the box is fully functional and has ejected something, assuming that iv not just smashed the casing up somehow.

I'm going to hopefully get it out either this weekend or next

 

[sam JFM]

Started to strip the engine bay down so I can change the box and clean the bay up

And I found the hole! It's down in the Diff housing - any guesses

 

[sam JFM]

Neil howard stages 2014
Mad rush to get sorted for this one!
Finaily got the gearbox changed after its failure on the patriot the weekend before the event (thanks to agency transmissions for their top quailty service). Great we thought, plenty of time to setup the suspension and get some sort of plan together - no such flipping luck. As we were finishing the box change and torqueing up the hut nuts we found that the calipers were pissing oil out of the bridge so we had to order some new seals up from compbrake, dispite informing them of the urgency of the situation I didnt get any seals until the friday before the event on saturday!

Major panic time! 9am with the calipers to rebuild, brakes to bleed and geometry to set all before scrutineering at 3pm!

Got everything sorted and hit the road at about 3pm, got to oulton and couldnt find the documents! Thats what rushing does for you!

Managed to convince the scrutineers to check the car over, noise test it and then I would present the docs the following morning, phew!

Saturday morning...
lashing it down! But having found the documents we were in much better spirit's than the night before all was looking good!

So to the ralling. Great venue especially as its just down the road but quite different from a track day as the lines are all messed up by merges and chicanes.
SS1 and 2 were horrible! Lots of rubber down and water on top no grip what so ever, on the last loop of the first stage I almost put it into the gravel at lodge with a huge lock up, no noise , no grip!!
So with it drying up and my pants emptied we went out for 3&4 whixh were better. Still not loads of grip but an improvement all the same and I started to get a feel for the car.
Off then to the super slippy rally/drift circuit for a stage - good fun but not very rewarding really.

The afternoon stages were the mornings stages in reverse, oulton backwards is alot of fun ! Flat in 4th down clay hill is quite a rush! Had quite a few hold ups in the afternoon mainly behind lower seeds on their first loops and an evo that wouldnt get out of the way! The place is quite unnerving in the dark as its difficult to judge speed and combined with it being backwards makes for an interesting ride!
Last stage was the rally circuit, in the dark, and the rain! With only the headlights to light the way it was difficult to pick turn in points ,braking points and judge speed so as a result I clobbered some tyres (twice) but fortunatly didnt do any damage and got to the finish.

Had a great battle with a suzuki swift all day, went into the last stage leading and threw it all away!
Brilliant day and great way to end the season with a firework display!
Learnt quite alot, first time I have had to drive the car in the wet. Possibly need to look at the setup as it was a real pig in the morning and just wanted to swap ends on me.
Nice to see @EVOgone who I only saw leaving the stage, you were flying! Fair do's!

Also thanks to @p@blo for coming over hand having a chat it was nice to catch up! And nice to meet @Carbonraider aswell as your respective ladie friend's

 

[Tony Hunter]

Oulton backwards sounds fun.

 

[p@blo]

Hey Sam, good to catch up again! Car seemed to be going really well - where did you finish up?

Looked so slippery in the morning, seemed a fair bit of standing water! What you planning on adjusting to tame it a little in the wet?

Got a couple of pictures of the clio early on in between showers, will send them over.

 

[Robsaan]

hey man, looks good. How much did it cost to get your dash flocked?!
Cheers

 

[sam JFM]

Hey Sam, good to catch up again! Car seemed to be going really well - where did you finish up?

Looked so slippery in the morning, seemed a fair bit of standing water! What you planning on adjusting to tame it a little in the wet?

Got a couple of pictures of the clio early on in between showers, will send them over.

Finished 54 started 84

Wasn't driving well tbh, the lack of grip in the morning destroyed my confidence to push on.

Not sure what to try, it's the first proper wet running ive ever done so it's not easy to test any changes

The flocking was about £125 from Suffolk flocking services

 

[EVOgone]

Thanks guys good to meet some of you.

Was a hectic rally for us so no chance to come across for a chat. We finished in the end after loosing a minute after the water splash nearly every stage. We were 4th o/a half way but bumped to 7th with the issues. Shame really as we were quicker than all the mega mk2 escorts just a WRC Fiesta and 2 WRC Subarus ahead.

Incar stage 2 misted up screen but still 4th fastest, co driver trust!



Incar stage 6 first one wrong round, little off rally crossing!

 

[sam JFM]

Cleaned, MOT'd and ready for its appointment at blink motorsport!

Looking forward to the tour of caerwent on Sunday!

 

[sam JFM]

Post rally report:
Beautiful day at Caerwent, unfortunately we were well off the pase all day.
Ss1. Went ok I thought, couple of mistakes but was short of what was required really
Ss2. We developed a really strange throttle fault - press the brake and accelerator together and the car went into limp mode?? Got out of the stage with a maximum but we at least got back to service!

We messed around with the throttle and brake to see what we could figure. Strangely when you press the brake pedal switch it revs the engine ?????
Anyway we unplugged the brake pedal switch and ran without brake lights!

Rest of the day was uneventful but slow, the car had more understeer than it has done in the past.

Im not sure if the lack of pase was the car or my driving - I used left foot braking for the first time so maybe that had something to do with it, I dunno but im going to have to put some time into finding out!

Pics to follow!

 

[Pauleds]

I have used left foot breaking a few times when doing sprints and times always showed I was faster when not doing it even though it felt neater and smoother when left foot breaking. I tend not to bother anymore.

 

[sam JFM]

Well over due post rally report.

Competed in the Keith Frecker memorial rally on the 7th of June 2015.

Without doubt our best event, we showed some genuine pace at times during the day and finished 14th overall (beating some tasty looking imprezas!)

I dropped the left foot braking and concentrated on getting my right foot braking working for me, I think on reflection I was braking far to early at caerwent.

Car was great all day, despite some jumping and heavy landings mullering the sump guard (@Grats said flat, so I went flat! ) but is really suffering not having a diff - anyone got a gripper going spare? so I think that's the next job before the nest outing!

Serviced next to @Grats in his lovely 197 powered st75 equipped clio - great machine! (topping out at 90 MPH and sitting on the limiter on the straights!, I don't think we got to 90 lol!)

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Nice to see someone rallying one of these. I've got an RS2000 rally car (MK5) and I genuinely think the Clio would run rings around it! Would love to convert mine for rallying when I've finished with it as a road car, but got a much bigger and better Escort coming. Hopefully that will cure the itch.

Interesting geometry discussion early in this thread. What have you done with the rear end. I'd be a bit cautious about introducing toe-out to the rear. It's ok on a circuit car but it might make a rally car feel a bit nervous over the bumps. A lot of the set-up date I've seen for FWD cars keeps a bit of toe-in on the rear.

Be interesting to know what the other guys run.

 

[sam JFM]

Nice to see someone rallying one of these. I've got an RS2000 rally car (MK5) and I genuinely think the Clio would run rings around it! Would love to convert mine for rallying when I've finished with it as a road car, but got a much bigger and better Escort coming. Hopefully that will cure the itch.

Interesting geometry discussion early in this thread. What have you done with the rear end. I'd be a bit cautious about introducing toe-out to the rear. It's ok on a circuit car but it might make a rally car feel a bit nervous over the bumps. A lot of the set-up date I've seen for FWD cars keeps a bit of toe-in on the rear.

Be interesting to know what the other guys run.

As it happens I have removed the toe from the rear. There is a noticeable difference in the way it drives now - better or worse I don't know, just different.
The addition of the rear toe was to make the car turn in better and loosen up the rear end, which it did. lift off oversteer was much more noticeable, I may go back to that setup depending on the venue slow and tight vs fast and flowing.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

It's a difficult thing to get right I think. I'm certainly no vehicle dynamics expert, but from my exposure, I was also cautioned against toe out at the rear in a rally car. As you say, it helps to loosen the rear end, which can help turn in. That's great on a circuit, as it's nice and smooth but, on tarmac rallies, where the surface tends to be bad, it can make the car feel unstable. I remember discussing it with an engineer at uni who used to run MINI Challenge race cars, and they always ran with rear toe-out, but all the manuals I have for the F2 Escort suggest running toe-in at the rear. With little weight in the rear, and bumpy roads, I could see how it could unsettle the car and make the back end a bit unpredictable. I wonder if a rear ARB may help, as it would give you a stiffer rear end (ooh err) but without the potential consequences of adding toe-out.

I suppose, as you say, you could tweak the set-up for specific venues so, for something like the Neil Howard, you'd probably get away with it, whereas on Epynt or somewhere you might not want it. I do wonder if you're adding complication though. Sometimes it's better to have a good all-round compromise that you're comfortable with and just learn to get the best from it, rather than having to re-learn the car each time out.

It's very much down to personal preference though I'm sure. Not mega experienced with these cars so other people will have differing opinions I'm sure!

 

[sam JFM]

I don't disagree with you, somewhere like Eypnt you want something nice and stable because of the undulations.
Somewhere like caerwent or weeton rear toe-out could be a benefit, due to all the slow-ish speed corners.
For now I will leave the toe out off though, and develop the car without. I have to say though the car didn't feel unstable.

The problem with rally cars is you never get enough time to fine tune what you want in relation to setup. Track cars are much easier, you can go around multiple times on the same surface and tune until you are happy. Rallying on the other had is all about surface change, and predominantly on the single venue scene flat out straights to 90 degree corners - making testing different setups difficult!

 

[sam JFM]

Update time!

A plan has been brewing for some time to reshell the car into a new shell with a weld in cage.

I picked up a new shell from sheffield last year and had a custom cage fitted by RED motorsport in deeside. Custom cages 6 point weld in with some extra bars of my choice.

Now this has sat in my workshop for about 10 months until now!

First job was to replace the 182 boot floor that had been riveted in. I innitally planned to keep the standard pannel and weld it in, unfortunately it was quite rusty! I can only ashume this was because it came out of a crash damaged car originally.

Plan B then is to weld a 2mm sheet of mild steel in the hole! Only slight problem with this is it can only be welded on the raised parts of the floor, although I dont think there is much rigidity provided by the floor now it has a full cage?

Some pictures of where I am up to! And some CAD work!

 

[sam JFM]

A couple of photos of the plate welded in place....

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Good upgrade! Anymore tweaks planned before paint?

 

[sam JFM]

Not really shell wise, I just have to fill all the gaps between the swages arounf the wheel well plate with sikaflex and make it look pretty!

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Yeah I know all about what you mean there, I spent plenty of time filling in a few gaps in my Escort like that! I can't claim it looks pretty though...

Has it had any seam welding or anything done? Can anything be cut out? I was amazed at the stuff I managed to get rid of from my car. But, saying that, it's a Ford from the 90s, it was never going to be efficiently put together...