182 - Increased Engine Capacity to 2.1 / 2.2

[fizzy_drink]

I don't want any comments like "it's not worth it", "don't bother" etc... ta.


All I want to know is the following, and I'd be very grateful for some sensible technical knowledge from all of you experts here!

1) Can my engine size be increased to 2.1 or 2.2?

2) What kit is required?

3) Who can do it?

4) How much will it cost?

5) Where can I do it?

6) How long will it take?

7) Gains?

8) MPG?

Ta,

Oms. xxx

 

[mat-nos]

yes to number one just depend on how much you bore out your block but making it into a 2.2 would make it alot weaker!!

number two would be complete engine rebuild forged pistons etc

number 3 would be the likes of gdi angelworks etc

number 4 would be 5k plus pounds

number 5 would be let someone else do it.

number 6 would be a good few weeks

number 7 would all depend on the mapping cams used etc etc but easily over 210 bhp

number 8 would depend on set up but guessing around 15-20 combined tops

im in no way an expert so dont take my word for it!!!!!!!!!

 

[ant]

I don't want any comments like "it's not worth it", "don't bother" etc... ta.

ok.

dont bother, its not worth it.

 

[fizzy_drink]

ok.

dont bother, its not worth it.

OI!

 

[JuanBoy]

Chuck a turbo on it ...

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=1317 :evil:

 

[Ja5on]

probaby not worth it, from what I know the 2.0l engine in a clio is pretty stressed as it is, takin more off the block and head as was said by mat-nos will weaken it. Possibiltiy of it goin bang!!!

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah it can be done no problem, if you have the cash to do so is another matter completley!!!!!!

 

[Dubai182]

Is it worth it Fred?

 

[fmp_]

why not just put a longer stroking crank on it, than trying to overbore it?

Stroker kit would probably work better, as the 182 lump isnt really a high revving unit.

 

[Fred@BTM]

Is it worth it Fred?

i wouldn't bother for the amount it'll cost you!

 

[Jays172]

cost, gains?^^ @fmp_

 

[fmp_]

cost would probably be astronomical, as someone would have to design and fabricate said crank.

as for power gains, from my saxo days, it was said a stroker kit on a Supercharged saxo engine would be beneficial, as the engine runs at stock rev's, but you get the increased capacity. And when coupled with a s/c, you can ram so much more air in there.

You probably wouldnt want to run a stroker kit on a highly tuned naturally aspirated car, as the increased rev's you would need (if running cams, throttle bodies etc) wouldnt suit it.

so i guess it depends how far you want to go with car.

But if someone wants to overbore or stroke engine, i woiuld of thought they would be running standalone management anyway etc, which could then be adjusted for increased capacity.

 

[Jays172]

sorry you lost me

 

[Fred@BTM]

LOL

power = £

 

[Jays172]

^^that's the problem with these sports

I can understand that easier!! I got that general impression it was going to be pricey

 

[fmp_]

lol

sorry, i tried to keep it in laymans terms!

basically, as fred says, real power, reliable = $$$$$$$

 

[mat-nos]

in otherwords jay knowone could tell you a figure as knowone would be stupid enough to do it as it would cost a stupid amount of money and is not just saying oh you need this which will add "x" amount of bhp is all about putting the package together which will work and that suits the customers needs/requirements.

if my numbers are in on sat ill let you know lol ;-)

 

[Jays172]

lol

sorry, i tried to keep it in laymans terms!

basically, as fred says, real power, reliable = $$$$$$$

cheers for the explanation, I understood to a point, but whenever I read anything like that my mind starts wondering!!

 

[Jays172]

in otherwords jay knowone could tell you a figure as knowone would be stupid enough to do it as it would cost a stupid amount of money and is not just saying oh you need this which will add "x" amount of bhp is all about putting the package together which will work and that suits the customers needs/requirements.

if my numbers are in on sat ill let you know lol ;-)

If your numbers are in, feel free to experiment on mine

 

[mat-nos]

lol we shall see ;-)

 

[Waitey]

Isn't there a french company that sells stroker kits?

I remeber seeing a clio 172 hill climb car which was running a 2.1 engine

 

[matty w]

motor hueger possibly?

 

[Joe@ShedMotorsport]

You wouldn't necessarily need a new crank, you could offset grind the crank to increase the stroke if the journals are big enough, this would require new rods tho which would cost at least £400. There is a possibility of using rods from a different engine if the pin-big end distance is the same and it has the required big end diameter.

The other option is to use a crank from another engine in the same series of engine if there is one available, i'm not sure if Renault make any 2.1/2.2's petrol or diesel, you might then be able to use some standard rods, if all the journal sizes are the same.

Increasing the stroke will make the engine less revvy but more torquey.

Either way its gonna cost some big bucks and a lot of head scratching.

 

[MarkM]

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114675

 

[BenR]

Its a heavy engineering excercise, and thats it.

Its not complex, but its not easy......and its certainly not cheap.

Upping to 2.1 would involve overboring.

Upping to 2.2 would involve a stroker assembly.

new crank/rods/pistons alone in major components would come out to about £2500+ ish. Then you require all the regular assembly components which would tally upto another £500.

Assembly, correctly, is where your money is being well spent, for reference see the article on my website.

Gains alone wouldn't be astronomical, what you gain is a point of lowered peak torque and BHP and the ability to run wilder cams without the drawback of peakyness on a 2.0.

I wouldnt attempt it unless you redid the whole engine as a 'system' to work towards a technical brief.

Reliability wise, less than stock as you'd be looking at a higher chance of head gasket failure due to the small area between bores, and no gaskets available at the moment i would call 'great'.

You will also be limited to a lower RPM threshold due to the altered rod/stroke ratio of increased stroke and limited deck height. But with a top end limit of 8000rpm, its not really a problem. Low r/s ratio will generate a torque monster.

 

[clowo16v]

If you can be arsed and can find the specs look for a bigger piston in another engine that could be used.

I know one of the old tricks I used in a Ford Pinto I built was to use machined 2.8 V6 pistons to make it a 2.1 instead of a 2 litre.

Matt

 

[jph172]

As said already- if your looking for 200bhp+ then start with your cams packages from around 2k
or if you have more money than sense id turbo it then your looking around 7-8k

 

[edde]

Upping to 2.1 would involve overboring.

Upping to 2.2 would involve a stroker assembly.

new crank/rods/pistons alone in major components would come out to about £2500+ ish. Then you require all the regular assembly components which would tally upto another £500.

I wouldnt attempt it unless you redid the whole engine as a 'system' to work towards a technical brief.

You will also be limited to a lower RPM threshold due to the altered rod/stroke ratio of increased stroke and limited deck height. But with a top end limit of 8000rpm, its not really a problem. Low r/s ratio will generate a torque monster.

You could stick in a longer ratio box/ longer last gear/final drive though and help lower rpm at crusiing motorway speed though couldn't you?

I think Oms idea isn't for power its for other reasons.
Say taking it to 2.1 since its only an over bore you'd only need a new pistons wouldn't you maybe roads would be a nice saftey if your keeping the rpm up. then add in a manifold and what sort of price would you be looking at? £3k? What about with a whole new rebuilt engine? £6k?

 

[BenR]

If you can be arsed and can find the specs look for a bigger piston in another engine that could be used.

I know one of the old tricks I used in a Ford Pinto I built was to use machined 2.8 V6 pistons to make it a 2.1 instead of a 2 litre.

Matt

You'll then have to make sure the crown thickness is large enough to allow machining for valve reliefs without breaking through, plus enough crown thickness below them.

 

[BenR]

You could stick in a longer ratio box/ longer last gear/final drive though and help lower rpm at crusiing motorway speed though couldn't you?

I think Oms idea isn't for power its for other reasons.
Say taking it to 2.1 since its only an over bore you'd only need a new pistons wouldn't you maybe roads would be a nice saftey if your keeping the rpm up. then add in a manifold and what sort of price would you be looking at? £3k? What about with a whole new rebuilt engine? £6k?

You could put a longer ratio box on if you wanted, but thats totally personal preference. And i dont think people would really buy the car then spend alot just to have a comfortable motorway car?

And if your going to strip the engine and rebuild everything just to add oversized pistons you might aswell do other stuff, although the renault rods will survive a fair amount of abuse RPM wise if you install some ARP rods bolts and resize. In most cases you'll have to run some wild cams to pull all the way to 8k anyway, and you'll have idle strategy issues on a stock ecu.

So overall, increasing capacity isnt for the halfway house jobs, just an extra 63cc isnt worth it.

I'd rather stroke than bore if i was doing anything as that is what would increase torque the most, even for the same given capacity increase.

But to run a true 2.2 you'll need a 99.2mm crank and an 84mm piston, crank isnt available and there is plenty more you'd have to do custom parts wise to make sure the thing turns over. You'll need shorter rods, larger piston dish volume, bump the compression height up if you can, check you can make a crank that will spin with 99.2mm stroke (so far 98mm is all that is available). So on and so forth.

 

[edde]

You could put a longer ratio box on if you wanted, but thats totally personal preference. And i dont think people would really buy the car then spend alot just to have a comfortable motorway car?

And if your going to strip the engine and rebuild everything just to add oversized pistons you might aswell do other stuff, although the renault rods will survive a fair amount of abuse RPM wise if you install some ARP rods bolts and resize. In most cases you'll have to run some wild cams to pull all the way to 8k anyway, and you'll have idle strategy issues on a stock ecu.

I think Omas was thinking about this his car does a load of miles so longer gearing would be nice and 8k wouldn't be needed stock rpm would be find.

 

[fizzy_drink]

Ta LOADS for the replies.

Well, it's simple. I want a little little bit more power (just under 10% gain, for insurance reasons), and I want a 5-10cc increase in engine size (ie, from 1998 to 2003-8).

Forget the labour (I've got that one sorted). I just want to source the parts...

...and it's just a capacity increase I want. No other mods.

 

[BenR]

capacity increase itself will not increase power.
Power increase comes from the higher rate of processing air, by increasing capacity you will simply lower the rpm point at where peak power and torque is made if everything else is constant. In laymands.

Why the 5-10cc increase thats a very very small amount that wont do anything.

 

[BenR]

an increase in piston size of 0.3mm will see you up about 15cc.

 

[fizzy_drink]

ooo there are reasons

If I can increase the capacity without increasing power, then so be it.




So, what's the simplest simplest way of doing it?

 

[BenR]

larger piston bore, but then you'll have to get a piston made, which isnt a problem if you want one. But a non standard or even 1mm oversize piston wont be cheap by any stretch of the imagination.

But it'll be cheaper than offset grinding your crank to stroke it and having a custom rod made up.

 

[stevo172-RWD]

why not just put a longer stroking crank on it, than trying to overbore it?

Stroker kit would probably work better, as the 182 lump isnt really a high revving unit.

iv met a old guy at weston wheels motor show and he had his black 182 done in france!around £9000 i belive.
like you said stroker kit!
theres not enough metal in between each cylinder to bore out!
hes said his was around 290bhp without the 50bhp nos kit he also had.
and he had launch control!

 

[Chris_H]

lol course it was, just like I'm shagging Carmen Electra on tuesday right after Charlize Theron!

 

[clowo16v]

290bhp out of an n/a 2 litre 16v is more or less full race spec.

Matt

 

[Peperami]

lol course it was, just like I'm shagging Carmen Electra on tuesday right after Charlize Theron!

I hope they make you breakfast in the mornings!