Advice Needed

[mantis946]

Hiya,

Yesterday I took the ph1 to the track for the first time (First time I've done a track day and first time for the car since being rebuilt) at teeside autodrome, quite a tight track with lots of twisty stuff. Had a great time and the car was pretty much faultless with the exception of a heat shield which started to rattle after a few laps.

One thing I noticed is the car is not as competent (Or it could be my driving) in the corners as I thought it would be, was up against a fiesta and a ford puma and was really struggling to keep pace in the corners. The car seems to wash wide and understeer when pressed. The rear was very stable, no hint of instability.

A few details about my setup (Everything is new down to the bolts as I rebuilt the car over a few years, trackrods/ball joints/arms etc)
Completely stock power wise (Has a fully silence ktec and a panel filter)
Black Powerflex bushes on the ream beam
Cup front and rear shocks
Cooksport spings
20mm front spacers
10mm PMS rear spacers
-1 Degree PMS rear shims
Rainsport 3's all round, only done ~1000 miles, ran at 35f 32r psi cold, this rose to 40 psi after some laps, dropped to 32 all round.
PMS Solid top mounts

Weight wise it's fairly standard, it's got a cup setup, that metal blob under the bonnet removed and the spare wheel and tool kit out.

I'll get a video in moment, it may help beyond the list of parts.

Cheers
Paul

 

[Ads29]

I ran my clio ph2 at combe a couple of weekends ago, mine is totally standard with well worn suspension. I ran with uniroyals on in the morning and the car felt very unstable, then put 888's on for the afternoon and noticed a massive difference immediately, I was able to push much much more, and the car handled 100% better

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[mantis946]

I ran my clio ph2 at combe a couple of weekends ago, mine is totally standard with well worn suspension. I ran with uniroyals on in the morning and the car felt very unstable, then put 888's on for the afternoon and noticed a massive difference immediately, I was able to push much much more, and the car handled 100% better

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I do suspect the Rainports may have been one of the issues, being quite new they have huge treadblocks and are quite squishy. I probably also got the pressures wrong. I'm looking at some R1R's for the next session

I've read that front spacers can upset the scrub radius, and 20mm is rather large. Not sure if this would contribute to understeer though.

 

[alistairolsen]

Rainsport 3's all round, only done ~1000 miles, ran at 35f 32r psi cold, this rose to 40 psi after some laps, dropped to 32 all round.

Was it wet or dry? In the dry my rainsports tend to be a bit wishy washy (soft sidewalls and lots of tread) but I normally swap them pretty quickly for something more track focussed.
Regardless, those pressures are much too high. I normally aim to run 30 hot so start at more like 25 than 35.

If its ploughing on, you have more rear grip than front. How much front camber are you running? Do you have a roll bar on the rear?

 

[JamesBryan]

Rainsports will be absolute dogshit in anything other than a soaking wet track.

The spacers probably will be affecting the handling to some degree.

 

[mantis946]

Was it wet or dry? In the dry my rainsports tend to be a bit wishy washy (soft sidewalls and lots of tread) but I normally swap them pretty quickly for something more track focussed.
Regardless, those pressures are much too high. I normally aim to run 30 hot so start at more like 25 than 35.

If its ploughing on, you have more rear grip than front. How much front camber are you running? Do you have a roll bar on the rear?

It was dry mate, for the next session I'm looking at some R1R's to see how I get on. Also some tuition if I can find some near home.
The front camber is stock, I do have bolt's but I've not had a chance to get on and setup properly, I read around -2 is sufficient ?
Standard front ARB with black polybrush ends, no ARB on the rear (Yet)

It certainly does feel like I have more rear grip then front, I didn't get so much as a twitch from the rear.

 

[alistairolsen]

Rainsports will be absolute dogshit in anything other than a soaking wet track.

The spacers probably will be affecting the handling to some degree.

They're not ideal from the point of view of stiffness, but in wet/drying conditions I've so far found them to be predictable and stick well, I switch for the A048s mainly to stop the rainsports disintegrating with heat rather than because they dont work.

It was dry mate, for the next session I'm looking at some R1R's to see how I get on. Also some tuition if I can find some near home.
The front camber is stock, I do have bolt's but I've not had a chance to get on and setup properly, I read around -2 is sufficient ?
Standard front ARB with black polybrush ends, no ARB on the rear (Yet)

It certainly does feel like I have more rear grip then front, I didn't get so much as a twitch from the rear.

Tuition is always good.
Stock front camber on something as soft as the rainsports will almost certainly cause understeer. Try taking a pic of the passenger side front tyre and posting it up.
I've not experimented, but clios seem to want more camber than a lot of FWD hatches and mines up around 3 somewhere and I havent found any reason to go back down (novas for instance feel horrendous under braking with that much camber)
I've just fitted one, but not tried it on track yet. I have had a few washout moments which I've had to correct with a bit of a lift to bring the back round.

 

[mantis946]

Rainsports will be absolute dogshit in anything other than a soaking wet track.

The spacers probably will be affecting the handling to some degree.

Would you recommend taking the front's off entirely ? I've heard having a wider rear track can encourage understeer, and they are a nightmare to remove

 

[JamesBryan]

They're not ideal from the point of view of stiffness, but in wet/drying conditions I've so far found them to be predictable and stick well, I switch for the A048s mainly to stop the rainsports disintegrating with heat rather than because they dont work.



Tuition is always good.
Stock front camber on something as soft as the rainsports will almost certainly cause understeer. Try taking a pic of the passenger side front tyre and posting it up.
I've not experimented, but clios seem to want more camber than a lot of FWD hatches and mines up around 3 somewhere and I havent found any reason to go back down (novas for instance feel horrendous under braking with that much camber)
I've just fitted one, but not tried it on track yet. I have had a few washout moments which I've had to correct with a bit of a lift to bring the back round.

That's what i mean, in the dry they're naff.

 

[JB21]

Defo the RS3's, got them on my ST and in the dry they're tosh, like jelly compared to the PS3's they replaced. Get some cheap spare wheels with track tyres on, that way you have wets and dry's.

 

[JamesBryan]

Would you recommend taking the front's off entirely ? I've heard having a wider rear track can encourage understeer, and they are a nightmare to remove :smile:

What wheels have you got on, the f1's?

 

[mantis946]

I do believe my set melted ha

 

[mantis946]

What wheels have you got on, the f1's?

Yup standard F1's

 

[JamesBryan]

I do believe my set melted ha

That's not bad, just pick up really.

Yup standard F1's

I'd probably swap to 10mm front tbh.

 

[mantis946]

That's not bad, just pick up really.



I'd probably swap to 10mm front tbh.

I'll give it a bash, it's a shame the standard wheels look completely lost on the PH1 arches.

Does the wear across the tread of the front's look normal ? The rears seem fairly even, but the fronts seem to of had the edges of the tread eaten away on the outside. Sign I need camber ?

 

[alistairolsen]

Theyve been hot/greasy, but the shoulders are better than I expected. You tend to see featering around the outer shoulder and even as far as the edge of the wrigint on the sidewall at times owing to FAR too little camber on soft carcass tyres.

 

[JamesBryan]

I'll give it a bash, it's a shame the standard wheels look completely lost on the PH1 arches.

Does the wear across the tread of the front's look normal ? The rears seem fairly even, but the fronts seem to of had the edges of the tread eaten away on the outside. Sign I need camber ?

That'll just be the tread block rolling over.

Camber won't hurt though.

-1.5-2 if it's a road car as well as track.

 

[mantis946]

Cheers everybody ! looking forward to getting out on some decent tyres and reporting back, then working my way up the mods. I believe I may have the bug !

 

[JamesBryan]

I use AD08r's and find them great.

 

[JB21]

I wouldn't use F1's for a track day, this is my nearside front after 10 laps of 3 sisters (clockwise track), albeit on a heavy AWD car. F1's are very soft for track use on any car if pushing hard, I found this out the hard way.

 

[JB21]

Just realised you guys meant F1's as in wheels...DOH!!!😊

Anyway the moral of the story road tyres aren't good on track.

 

[JamesBryan]

I wouldn't use F1's for a track day, this is my nearside front after 10 laps of 3 sisters (clockwise track), albeit on a heavy AWD car. F1's are very soft for track use on any car if pushing hard, I found this out the hard way.

We're on about OZ F1 wheels mate :wink:

EDIT: Oh you've seen it now.

 

[mantis946]

Just realised you guys meant F1's as in wheels...DOH!!!😊

Anyway the moral of the story road tyres aren't good on track.

Holy jesus, you've killed them haha

 

[JamesBryan]

Holy jesus, you've killed them haha

That track he did is really abrasive though. I did 20 laps on there and my 3mm tread of AD08r's that was there just disappeared lol.

 

[mantis946]

That track he did is really abrasive though. I did 20 laps on there and my 3mm tread of AD08r's that was there just disappeared lol.

Ahh can't say I've looked into 3 sisters before, always fancied Anglesey and crofts

 

[JamesBryan]

Anglesey is another one, went there with brand new AD08r's so around 7-8mm.

Be lucky if i've got 5mm left now.

 

[eon172]

To the OP, I have/had pretty much the same spec as you apart from the addition of a RARB and -2.5 front camber with rainsport 2. Once I had significant heat in them on a dry track they became useless and showed signs of melting fairly quickly. So immediately went and bought a second set of wheels with semi slicks, made a significant difference! Tbf, I would like to try them on a very wet track one day to see if they do come in to their own.

 

[...]

several things .

Cooksports are too soft for track work .
road tyres are too soft for track work

combined to being on a tight track as teeside is a kart track and you being (with all due respect and your own admission) a newbie , it has understeer written all over it .

the chances are you were trying to carry in way too much speed for the setup and cooking the tyres

i ran our car at Bedford on conti 5's with pretty much your setup but with more negative camber on the front and it was way way too soft thus working tyres harder and cooking them .

 

[mantis946]

To the OP, I have/had pretty much the same spec as you apart from the addition of a RARB and -2.5 front camber with rainsport 2. Once I had significant heat in them on a dry track they became useless and showed signs of melting fairly quickly. So immediately went and bought a second set of wheels with semi slicks, made a significant difference! Tbf, I would like to try them on a very wet track one day to see if they do come in to their own.

I was actually secretly hoping it was going to piss down yesterday so the tyres where at home, but alas it was sunny all afternoon ! They didn't seem to bad while I was out learning the track (Admittingly not carrying much speed, I nearly got lost on my first lap) but after warming them up, it literally felt as if I was hanging off them around corners ha

 

[mantis946]

several things .

Cooksports are too soft for track work .
road tyres are too soft for track work

combined to being on a tight track as teeside is a kart track and you being (with all due respect and your own admission) a newbie , it has understeer written all over it .

the chances are you were trying to carry in way too much speed for the setup and cooking the tyres

i ran our car at Bedford on conti 5's with pretty much your setup but with more negative camber on the front and it was way way too soft thus working tyres harder and cooking them .

I do suspect it's a combination of all the things you mention, unfortunately the car's my daily at the moment so I daren't venture into coilovers and bump steer correctors. When I originally built the car I was aiming for OEM+ so I'm hoping with some good rubber and tuition, I can make do with the springs

 

[...]

Sticking on a set of 888's and the stiffer sidewalls will help hugely

But your problem will still be a soft setup

As a fast road setup what you have is good but for track work it really wont be great

 

[mantis946]

A video from the later laps on the day, the track was closed for a half hour as a 172's wheel came off, so it's a little dark. The first corner after leaving the pit's was giving me issues, unsure if it's the uneven road or just too much speed into the corner. The tyres are around 32 PSI front and rear here.

 

[...]

Can i try and say this in the nicest way and please dont take offence but my best advice would be book a track day on a decent circuit, and have as many sessions with an instructor as you can.
If you can afford a whole day with one then 90% of the issues you are suffering can be ironed out by starting with some basic track driving skills.

You genuinely will thank me for the advice and enjoy the car more .

Hope that helps you as although sticky tires will help against the quicker car they will mask whats going on .

 

[eon172]

Must say, I've always been glad when I got some tuition on a track day, made a hell of a difference to my driving on sprints too, especially on controlling the weight distribution

 

[...]

There is so much to understand when it comes to fast/track driving
Understanding of weight transfer and the understanding of the physics of what where and why are essential to understand

They are also different between fwd and rwd but most will benefit

I used driver coaches through all my 30 years of racing and have never stopped gaining from them

I thing that is 100% true is that you can never ever muscle a car round a track quickly

To have a well setup car go quickly you have to know how to make it go quickly

And 9 times out of 10 its going slower

 

[mantis946]

There is so much to understand when it comes to fast/track driving
Understanding of weight transfer and the understanding of the physics of what where and why are essential to understand

They are also different between fwd and rwd but most will benefit

I used driver coaches through all my 30 years of racing and have never stopped gaining from them

I thing that is 100% true is that you can never ever muscle a car round a track quickly

To have a well setup car go quickly you have to know how to make it go quickly

And 9 times out of 10 its going slower

Tuition is certainly on my list of things to do, tee sides my closest track living in Newcastle, but I don't believe they offer tuition. Crofts would probably be my closest, but think it was certainly worth having a go before hand

 

[...]

Croft is a great track to learn on

 

[Adam G]

Listen to harvsurrey. You can learn to drive a car with your setup pretty quickly but it does take seat time, trial and error and as said TUITION. I'm getting more tuition now, as I feel I've reached a plateau and want a fresh pair of eyes, to gain a few more tenths here and there. (I race too)
I wouldn't recommend R1Rs for a dry track either unless they are pretty worn down. Great wet tyre though.

 

[...]

Its all about sidewall stiffnes as well as overall grip

But without being to harsh a great setup would have understeered badly the way it was being pedalled

 

[AlanWak]

A big vote for proper suspension set up - before last Friday I was running standard camber and toe front and rear. Clio 172, Eibach springs, cup shocks.

K-Tec set the car up for me last week and yesterday I tested it at the latest round of the National Autosolo Championship at Kemble near Cirencester. The difference was incredible. I asked for better turn in, more traction out of corners, less understeer, less tyre scrub and getting rid of the general "wooliness". All delivered in spades. 1st in class. Now leading most of the Autosolo Championships in the UK.

Tuition, tyres, etc are important, but I was amazed at the difference proper set up made with no other changes.