Braking lacks initial bite - 182

[ripp]

Hi,
My 2005 182 FF pretty much lacks that initial brake bite. Been in my friend's 182 the other day (cup packed as mine and in good shape) and there is a very noticeable feel in the brakes, you apply a small amount force and the car slows down whereas in my car you must apply more force on the pedal to get the same result.
I'm on mintex or spec pads now, pedal feels firm so I guess no air in the system which was bled 2 years ago.
Been using different pads over the years from renault OE pads to ds2500 and ebc yellows and it was always like this, so the pads are not to blame.
Disc's are brembo HC - the popular choice.
The abs is working and if you apply power the car stops no problem it's just that initial bite that's poor compared to other 1*2's that I've driven over the years and it now started to annoy me tbh.
I'm thinking the brake master cylinder.
Any other thoughts?
Thanks!

 

[botfch]

Rebleed is the first step if its been 2 years.

 

[Usr117063]

Oe pads are brembos? Because brembo and ds2500 are wooden and dont have that bite youre talking about.

 

[ripp]

Oe pads are mintex. My mate has brembo oe pads and hc discs. His car has been bled at least 2 years ago as that's how long he has it and still brake feel is night and day compared

 

[JamesBryan]

Do you mean pedal travel or stopping power of the pad?

Any road pad should have decent enough bite from cold.

Seized calipers can cause brake issues, especially the rears.

 

[ripp]

No not the pedal travel, I mean the brake power under a certain force applied to the pedal. You barely touch the brake in my mate's car and boom it stops whereas in mine you have to push harder to get the same result.
It's like a servo assisted brake vs one without assist let's say

 

[frayz]

You want bite.
PFC 01 pads 😅👌🏼

 

[GrahamS]

No not the pedal travel, I mean the brake power under a certain force applied to the pedal. You barely touch the brake in my mate's car and boom it stops whereas in mine you have to push harder to get the same result.
It's like a servo assisted brake vs one without assist let's say

I had a very similar feeling in my car. I could only put it down to the master cylinder or the brake servo as everything else had been replaced. I’m shortly to replace both so we shall see! I trust you’ve checked all your caliper sliders are free

 

[ripp]

Yes I did check the calipers. I'm picky when dealing with brakes, using ate grease on contact points, mounting everything clean and so on. Sliders are cleaned and greased once a year

 

[ripp]

Update:
Serviced the front calipers - new pistons and rubber parts, bled the whole system meaning drained the old fluid out and new motul RBF660 fluid in.
The pedal feels good, not squishy or smth, discs are good, pads are mintex oem spec with 2k miles on them, not glazed or smth,
the guide pins have been replaced and greased, calipers wire brushed and cleaned thoroughly, used ate grease on pad-caliper contact points, basically a proper job has been done.
But the brakes still lack bite. After reading into this looks like the master cylinder is OK as the pedal feel is as it should, but the mechanic said that the abs pump might be the issue here.
Is there a way of checking it? (the abs works fine though, it kiks as it should)
Found a abs pump for 60 quid but not wanting to spend without checking first.
This is beginning to annoy me really..
Any advice welcomed!

 

[Krarl]

How did he determine that the master cylinder is good?

And have you got braided lines on there? If so what brand?

 

[Usr117063]

60 quid for a new pump? You will have fun swapping that over.

I havnt tried mintex oem but I wouldnt expect a 20 odd quid road pad to feel very good. If you brake as hard as you can from say 50 what happens? Abs kicks in and you stop? If you want better feel then get a better pad.

 

[ripp]

How did he determine that the master cylinder is good?

And have you got braided lines on there? If so what brand?

My mechanic said that if the pedal feel is nice and firm then the master cylinder should be OK.
Only having std brake lines not braided

60 quid for a new pump? You will have fun swapping that over.

I havnt tried mintex oem but I wouldnt expect a 20 odd quid road pad to feel very good. If you brake as hard as you can from say 50 what happens? Abs kicks in and you stop? If you want better feel then get a better pad.

The 60 quid pump is used not new 😊
My neighbor has the same brembo hc discs as I have plus brembo oem pads and the brakes feel as they should.
If I stamp on the brakes the abs kicks in no problem and the braking is powerful enough. The car stops no doubt about that.
It's the brake performance under normal driving that's poor.
Ober the years I had std Renault pads, oem ferodo pads, ds 2500 pads, ebc yellows, now these mintex which I'm gonna keep just for road use.
And the brakes always felt like this.
As I said before, they were always checked and installed properly, fluid changed on time etc.
So I'm out of ideas!

 

[JamesBryan]

Some pads will feel a bit wooden if they're not bedded in properly...

 

[Krarl]

As James said above, bed the pads in properly and see what they're like. If they're no different then look to see if your servo has excessive rust

I don't believe for one second that the MC will be fine as I've never seen a Clio where the MC seals weren't shagged. Check your standard lines over too as I've bought cars with rusted and de-laminated lines

 

[Usr117063]

Depends how used that pump is but I just got one for 25 quid off ebay. Probably someone on here breaking one as well

 

[Usr117063]

How do you bed oem style pads in?

 

[Krarl]

How do you bed oem style pads in?

I usually just do a few 30-10mph and then a few 70-30mph stops and that sees them right

 

[Usr117063]

I usually just do a few 30-10mph and then a few 70-30mph stops and that sees them right

I remember a thread talking about this. Just 'taking it easy' for 100 miles is not the right thing to do and there actually needs some heat in them, its just they cant tell you do heavy stops on public roads

 

[ripp]

When I had the ds2500's I followed the bed in process described by ferodo.
I did the same with the yellowstuff pads.
With the oem pads I had I just took it easy for the first 100-150 miles like most OE manufacturers recommend.
Everytime was the same after the bed in process. The brakes were decent but still lacked bite under normal driving.
Will do some more ckecks and see if I can find anything suspicious

 

[Krarl]

Yeah you can initially scrub them in against new discs for a mile or so but then you really need to stand on them and get them hot otherwise they will just feel s**t

 

[Usr117063]

Or carbone lorrain rc8 and dont do a thing lol

 

[ripp]

I went to a track day with these mintex OE pads after they were bedded in and got some heat in them without overcooking them sow they're not glazed - checked them.
But they still don't feel as they should.
Anyway I had the yellows which were tracked in their limits also, bedded in properly and still the same.
This leads me to believe after all those different pads over the years that the discs and pads are not to blame whatsoever..

 

[ripp]

Back again at this. Now that I have rebuilt the engine which cost a small fortune, I really... REALLY want to sort out the brakes.
So basically everything seems fine, pads, discs, pedal feel end travel is OK, looks like there are no air leaks at the brake servo hose and stuff and still.. The car has very poor brakes. They feel like you don't have power assisted brakes, push the pedal hard in order to get the desired response.
I recently rebuild the front calipers with new seals, pistons, sliders, re bleed the system and it's the same.
It drives me nuts so... Help?

 

[JamesBryan]

Not something to do with the servo vacuum hose from the inlet to the servo is it? Like on another recent thread...

They like to melt sometimes.

Tell tale signs are a hard pedal and lack of assistance.

 

[R3k1355]

New servo, new master cylinder, new vac hose and vac valve.

I wouldn't just stick a used ABS pump in there, at least send it off and have it checked or rebuilt first, I used this company before, did a good job..

 

[ripp]

Ok so next plan is to change the brake servo (found a second hand unit which seems ok), inspect the master cylinder (hopefully doesn't leak or smth as I haven't found a replacement so far) and then re-bleed the whole system including the ABS module an HOPEFULLY this time it'll be good ..

 

[plenty]

DS2500 and (at least in my experience of older versions) EBC Yellow are wooden pads at their best.

Get a set of new discs and PBS Prorace for £180 or so. Bed them in properly and if there’s still an issue then you have a problem somewhere.

 

[Ex-User (99307)]

Are you doing the proper bleed with the abs pump firing using clip? Makes a huge difference.