172 Race Car
powdercoated rear beam, hes a long way off
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I think it's great you're giving it a go.
I'd love to have the time to do similar development work but I just want reliability for the moment. I'd be gutted going out and having major issues each time.
If it all works out I'll be sure to copy you lol
Any idea what races you're planning for next year yet?
I'd love to have the time to do similar development work but I just want reliability for the moment. I'd be gutted going out and having major issues each time.
If it all works out I'll be sure to copy you lol
Any idea what races you're planning for next year yet?
Fair play to you for trying something different! BUT i'm a big believer in why fix what isn't broken, there are a lot easier ways of curing the problem you were having without having to go into modifying the subframe etc, as many have said just look at the burpspeed car, it has only very basic suspension mods and it handles like no clio i'v ever seen! sometimes simple is better
Chase Racing Clio
I think it's great you're giving it a go.
I'd love to have the time to do similar development work but I just want reliability for the moment. I'd be gutted going out and having major issues each time.
If it all works out I'll be sure to copy you lol
Any idea what races you're planning for next year yet?
Thanks mate, I think we're still quite hoping that these mods pay off and we see some distinct changes in the characteristic of the car. Yes, everyone is right in that it isn't bad in the first place, but not much harm in trying these things. It hasn't cost us a whole lot really, way less than a set of new tyres, just been a fair amount of time fabricating things really. All part of the fun of building a car like this I guess.
With the calendar, we're quite disappointed Mallory and Silverstone have been replaced with Cadwell and Pembrey because Silverstone is about 30 mins from where the car is kept and Mallory is about 30 mins from Ryan's place, so those ones were quite convenient for us. I think any plan we make now will no doubt change, but I guess we won't do the 2 welsh ones for definite but will try and do as many as the rest as we can. Brands and Snetterton... although they're far, we have good friends and family close to both where we can stop the night before, which makes a big difference, so probably try and get to them. Play it by ear I guess, need to get the car properly tested and set up first! It'll all come together, I'll make sure of it.
Firstly lol at all the cheeky buggers talking about me :butt:
Sorry to hear about the test guys! Hope you get sorted whichever way you go. I can see both points of view and it is something that I don't think will ever be agreed on. The best way I find is do what you want to do, if people aren't going to agree with you and that bothers you then don't tell them you've done it
Sorry to hear about the test guys! Hope you get sorted whichever way you go. I can see both points of view and it is something that I don't think will ever be agreed on. The best way I find is do what you want to do, if people aren't going to agree with you and that bothers you then don't tell them you've done it
172 Race Car
Best 2 circuits weve raced on imo. Really great for club racing, really disapointing
Have you been in it? I cant remember
ears burning?Firstly lol at all the cheeky buggers talking about me :butt:
Sorry to hear about the test guys! Hope you get sorted whichever way you go. I can see both points of view and it is something that I don't think will ever be agreed on. The best way I find is do what you want to do, if people aren't going to agree with you and that bothers you then don't tell them you've done it
Something like that :rasp:
I think I'm gonna bow out of this conversation now - I really do think you're over-thinking the solution to a very simple problem.
If I was building a tin top clio and had understeer I think I'd just look to the other tin top cars that don't and try what they've done rather than thinking up overly complicated solutions to possible problems that result in more issues
Good luck though
If I was building a tin top clio and had understeer I think I'd just look to the other tin top cars that don't and try what they've done rather than thinking up overly complicated solutions to possible problems that result in more issues
Good luck though
_WILL_
ClioSport Club Member
172 Cup
If everyone did this in life then where would we be? Still living in caves or using horses for transport? But I do understand what your point is.
I like that they have tried something different and ultimately this solution is very good once it is working. Popping a drive shaft is not unexpected and I imagine they guys weren't surprised but maybe a little disappointed. This is a great idea, it maybe a little over kill for this level of racing, but when they get it sorted I wouldn't be surprised to see more people doing it.
Hmmm, trying to think when the world was better, now or before the industrial revolution...though I now couldn't be with out my soft toilet roll.
I found changing things for changes sake isn't always the better option\solution....can't see the wood for the trees almost.
Chase Racing Clio
I like that it what we have done to the car has caused this debate....it's interesting to hear people's stand point on what is a reasonable level of modification. We want to try out what the car and ourselves are capable of and we enjoy pushing the envelope a little. If these modifications do pay off I'm sure this conversation will take another direction. We are more than aware of the implications of it all, but haven't done anything which isn't too difficult to reverse. It won't take us long at all to switch back to standard if needs be, we'll still be getting plenty of racing in this year!! ('cause that's what it's all about really)
I think even if they mods did "pay off" the increase in front end grip will be no more than what you could achieve playing with the geometry, fitting better tyres, getting better suspension - and it will be a lot more hassle
If everything else is maximised (I'm not the person to say it is or isn't in this case) mate then the mods they are making will make it better without a doubt i'm afraid! I do agree though that I wouldn't do it at the cost of loosing seat time and unreliability. The kinematics of the suspension are one of the key things to a good handling car IMO. At the end of last season I ran my car higher which compromised the CoG but improved the kinematics over having it 'decked' If I could of run the car lower but still kept things like the roll centre's okay then it all add's up to a quicker lap time.
Is it all too much for club racing?? Only each competitor can answer that and make there own mind up rather than being a sheep and copying everyone else so while I wouldn't be doing it myself if I was at the stage chase racing are but fair play to them for trying it.
IF everything else was maximised (which if they're getting loads of understeer it clearly isn't, because the burpspeed lads don't get understeer) then it might help
But it might help at the cost of custom driveshafts, custom track rod ends, custom arb links etc.. all of which will add unreliability
Fair play for trying something new but I wouldn't be doing this on a competition car.
Surely finishing every race is more important points wise than pushing for 1% more grip?
My car suffered from understeer as standard, the mods I have done to pretty much eliminate this are:
Pure Motorsport toe shims ( half a degree shim toe out on each side)
Around 30 mins toe out and 2.5 deg negative camber on front
Suspension (you may need stiffer rear springs)
I am developing a easy bolt on solution to raise the roll center and correct bump steer which does not effect track width or drive shaft angles. Wont be available till February due to other commitments.
Pure Motorsport toe shims ( half a degree shim toe out on each side)
Around 30 mins toe out and 2.5 deg negative camber on front
Suspension (you may need stiffer rear springs)
I am developing a easy bolt on solution to raise the roll center and correct bump steer which does not effect track width or drive shaft angles. Wont be available till February due to other commitments.
That's a shame. There's a place that does re-moulds just up the road.
A cup racer will hand your ass to you on the corners in a road Clio with good mods, the g/box can be brought out of the argument as you will rarely change mid corner. I'm speaking from having seen both on 1b tyres I.e 888 etc. Have a look at Iceman's race vids for some reference, not forgetting racers are on fixed damping which is a massive let down but gives you an idea of the geomatery fundamentals being improved.
These mods are pointing towards what has been with the racers except I think it could have been tackled slightly different by using cup track rods and ends (no rack spacers) extended driveshafts and rather than raising inner pivot points on the wishbones, making the adjustment on the outside with a taller and longer bottom ball joint( RCA pin) the way chase have done it is to adjust the roll centre without having the correct relation between the crossover points of tyre contacts etc of roll centre.
Good job I say for trying something different with vey little outlay, keep it up.
Thats my 2 pence lol.
These mods are pointing towards what has been with the racers except I think it could have been tackled slightly different by using cup track rods and ends (no rack spacers) extended driveshafts and rather than raising inner pivot points on the wishbones, making the adjustment on the outside with a taller and longer bottom ball joint( RCA pin) the way chase have done it is to adjust the roll centre without having the correct relation between the crossover points of tyre contacts etc of roll centre.
Good job I say for trying something different with vey little outlay, keep it up.
Thats my 2 pence lol.
Interesting, I have thought about having a few kits made to change the roll centre. Would only be a trial thing and wouldn't be backed up by computer simulation or any of that jazz.
Are you doing this with Northloop cup?
Yeah don't get me wrong Phil that's not the way I am going to do it as it brings with it too much potential for things going wrong as you say but the reasons they are doing it for will fundamentally help if they can make it reliable.
Great minds think alike
No this is something i am doing independently.
I have manual calculations of roll center positioning. I am aiming for a roll center position of ground level, this is a fair amount higher than a lowered Clio; yet wont cause any jacking effect or excessive lateral load on the tyres. It will help for high speed understeer (steady state cornering) by the means of less weight transfer to the outside front wheel. It will increase low speed understeer (quick direction changes) due to the front roll resistance being higher than it was before hand but I have removed the front ARB to counter-act this.
This is the same way I am going about raising the roll center! I cant see the need for extended drive shafts unless your changing the location of the ball joint to a position further out though.
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Yeah that's only for making the track wider. Cheaper to stay with your standard width. The benefit of doing this is, you get wider track without moving the wheel away from the strut like spacers/low offset wheels do and giving camber while allowing the wheel to be parallel to the strut. The wheel is closer to the rotation/pivot of the strut. This is what fords revo knuckle does perfectly by moving the pivot to the wheel centre giving better grip, steering and power handling capability.
pure-motorsport
ClioSport Trader
Clio 172
By moving the wishbone mounts up so much you are putting a huge twisting force into the tin foil subframe legs and may make things worse for yourself by having loads of flex that you never had before thus making your static suspension set up move all over the place when loaded dynamically. You should try sticking a rachet strap between two of the mounts on opposite sides with a bolt in both and pull it up tight to see how much movement you get - you may be scared by how much it moves with nowhere near the forces it will see on track. This is just an idea and in no way putting down your solution to raise the roll centre!
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
Nope this one is nothing to do with me. I have already got a kit ready to go to solve the roll centre issues. Before I even consider marketing it, I want it proven with facts and figures to back it up. This will be done by James (BigAsh) and it will be a joint venture that we will then offer out as a kit (assuming people would be interested of course.)
I can confirm that this will be available for road use and circuit use. It has already been fitted to my track car and the improvements were sublime to say the least, so the circuit improvements could prove monumentally good tbh.
182cup & 172 racecar
Let me know how it goes.
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
Will do Tony! I would've contacted you anyway, so more than happy for you to have a kit when the testing is done!
Yes mate, you took me out for a few laps at the first llandow trackday, i can honestly say that i've never been in a car that handles like yours does!
172 Race Car
Had bags of understeer that day, nothing like on a big track, on a warm day and on proper tyres. Thats another lever again
Chase Racing Clio
February 28[SUP]th[/SUP] 2013
Well, it really has been quite a while since we last did an update, so here it comes.
Over Christmas, we had a bit of time to assess all the things we’ve done so far and where we are heading. After many discussions about money, we realised we need to take better control of our spending, focus on getting the car running reliably and develop the car as we go, rather than in one big step. With that in mind, we didn’t want to turn the clock back on the things we’d achieved and were keen to finish off the little chassis modifications we had made from the last update.
So, first on the agenda, was to sort out the driveshafts…. We found a company that does friction welding and after disassembling the driveshaft assemblies, sent off the 2 shafts to get them lengthened.
We recognised that if we were to get a failure of any sort that we wanted to make sure we had some kind of replacement part on hand if necessary. So, we made sure we kept all of the original CV joints and it would only be the main central shafts that would be longer. If the unthinkable happens and we snap the newly made shafts, we will be able to get a full refund on them too. We got hold of another standard driveshaft assembly, some boots, clips and grease to add to our spares bin. The custom shafts came back and they really look the part, they even gave them a lick of paint to complete the look. Here’s the driver’s side one all assembled:
Now that we have the longer driveshafts, we are pretty confident everything will go back together nicely and we should have no further problems! Let’s hope I don’t have to eat those words. With all the chassis components off the car, we thought it would be a good idea to get them cleaned up and painted.
A nice pot of POR15 paint went a long way and we’ve done all the chassis bits with still a third of a tin! As you can, there’s another engine in the workshop… For all you Honda geeks it’s an F20, but don’t worry it’s not going in the Clio. Rob has decided he wants another project alongside the Clio!!
After all of this was back together, we had another issue we needed to address. During the removal of the previous gearbox (oh yeh…we’ve got another one in there now!), we found that the upper aluminium gearbox mount had cracked. So, instead of bodging it back together, we decided to make our own!
As you can see, we’ve taken 3 sections of tube and joined it together with a piece of box section. We found another bit of tube and Rob turned up 2 pieces of nylon and hey presto, one gearbox mount!
We then fixed it all in place and found that the engine now barely moves at all. There’s no need to upgrade the upper right hand side engine now either. This solution literally cost us a couple of quid for a block of nylon, so it’s certainly much cheaper!
The car is nearly ready to roll out, just the brakes to sort and we’re done. The next date on the calendar is less than 2 weeks away, when we head down to Brands to give the car a good run out. The plan now is to get a couple of tests done and then be fully prepared for the Brands race in early May. Onwards and upwards!
Well, it really has been quite a while since we last did an update, so here it comes.
Over Christmas, we had a bit of time to assess all the things we’ve done so far and where we are heading. After many discussions about money, we realised we need to take better control of our spending, focus on getting the car running reliably and develop the car as we go, rather than in one big step. With that in mind, we didn’t want to turn the clock back on the things we’d achieved and were keen to finish off the little chassis modifications we had made from the last update.
So, first on the agenda, was to sort out the driveshafts…. We found a company that does friction welding and after disassembling the driveshaft assemblies, sent off the 2 shafts to get them lengthened.
We recognised that if we were to get a failure of any sort that we wanted to make sure we had some kind of replacement part on hand if necessary. So, we made sure we kept all of the original CV joints and it would only be the main central shafts that would be longer. If the unthinkable happens and we snap the newly made shafts, we will be able to get a full refund on them too. We got hold of another standard driveshaft assembly, some boots, clips and grease to add to our spares bin. The custom shafts came back and they really look the part, they even gave them a lick of paint to complete the look. Here’s the driver’s side one all assembled:
Now that we have the longer driveshafts, we are pretty confident everything will go back together nicely and we should have no further problems! Let’s hope I don’t have to eat those words. With all the chassis components off the car, we thought it would be a good idea to get them cleaned up and painted.
A nice pot of POR15 paint went a long way and we’ve done all the chassis bits with still a third of a tin! As you can, there’s another engine in the workshop… For all you Honda geeks it’s an F20, but don’t worry it’s not going in the Clio. Rob has decided he wants another project alongside the Clio!!
After all of this was back together, we had another issue we needed to address. During the removal of the previous gearbox (oh yeh…we’ve got another one in there now!), we found that the upper aluminium gearbox mount had cracked. So, instead of bodging it back together, we decided to make our own!
As you can see, we’ve taken 3 sections of tube and joined it together with a piece of box section. We found another bit of tube and Rob turned up 2 pieces of nylon and hey presto, one gearbox mount!
We then fixed it all in place and found that the engine now barely moves at all. There’s no need to upgrade the upper right hand side engine now either. This solution literally cost us a couple of quid for a block of nylon, so it’s certainly much cheaper!
The car is nearly ready to roll out, just the brakes to sort and we’re done. The next date on the calendar is less than 2 weeks away, when we head down to Brands to give the car a good run out. The plan now is to get a couple of tests done and then be fully prepared for the Brands race in early May. Onwards and upwards!
Great stuff guys Look forward to seeing how your season goes!
Look forward to seeing how your season goes!You've certainly been busy.
Plenty scope to adjust bumpsteer now! Who did you get to weld the brackets onto the uprights? Assume it welded ok? pre-heated and cooled slowly?
One point on the gearbox mounting, that is now unquestionably the stiffest mounting on the engine&gearbox as such it will take significantly more load than the others. Hopefully it does the trick for you but I suspect the original alloy bit may be the next weakest link.
Plenty scope to adjust bumpsteer now! Who did you get to weld the brackets onto the uprights? Assume it welded ok? pre-heated and cooled slowly?
One point on the gearbox mounting, that is now unquestionably the stiffest mounting on the engine&gearbox as such it will take significantly more load than the others. Hopefully it does the trick for you but I suspect the original alloy bit may be the next weakest link.
Chase Racing Clio
You're on the ball Kenny.... yeh, Ryan welded the uprights and we used a fairly thick plate section. It seems to have welded pretty well, we'll keep a close eye on it through testing.
We recognise that the aluminium hanger is probably now the weakest point... we have a spare one of them too from the other gearbox. So if it does go, we'll turn up a piece of polyurethane and re-assemble it. Also, Rob rightly pointed out I was probably a little quick to say that we wouldn't need to upgrade the upper engine mount. If this new mount is too stiff it will probably cause the upper one to move around even more, possibly splitting the rubber and could also cause the new one to fatigue... so we'll be keeping a close eye on that too!!
TrackCar & F30 330d
Hopefully the driveshafts fix the problems you had!
Daz172cup made a custom gearbox mount, like yours, and it snapped something else because it was too stiff. Hoefully yours will be fine!
Daz172cup made a custom gearbox mount, like yours, and it snapped something else because it was too stiff. Hoefully yours will be fine!
Been busy over the winter, look forward to your Brands testing update.....have you seen\looked at the Track Attack Racing Club and their new French series? We're giving that a try in April (along with Tony\Burpspeed too), hopefully no DC5's etc as in the CSCC Tintops...free to join\register this year too...for all team drivers.
TARC French series
And the forum
TARC French series
And the forum
Chase Racing Clio
We've heard about this series and it does sound reasonably interesting. At this stage, and with there being 3 of us, we will be sticking to TinTops as it's much easier to rotate and each still get a good share of the driving. When we have a bit more flexibility and cash, we might see what it's about, but for now it's TinTops for us.
Some good progress. I will echo what others have said, the gearbox mount and hub setup looks questionable for strength. Neat idea on the hub for adjustability but cast metal doesn't take to being welded in high stress areas...even with the correct welding process of heating and annealing.
You can only suck it and see I suppose.
Did drivelink do your friction welding?
You can only suck it and see I suppose.
Did drivelink do your friction welding?
Chase Racing Clio
Can't remember the name, Rob sorted that out.... don't think it was drivelink though.
Don't worry, we'll be looking at it regularly to check no cracks are forming, all part of the development process!!
Chase Racing Clio
March 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] 2013:
The Chase Racing guide to developing a space saver wheel for a Renault Sport Clio:
Take one Renault steel wheel, place over rear hub and carefully cut a perfect circle. (Chase Racing cannot be held responsible for any personal injury caused from emulating what you can see in the following image)
Hopefully, if nothing has gone wrong, you should create a piece that looks a little bit like this:
Then, take one Vauxhall Vectra space saver wheel (16 inch), carefully cut out the centre to a slightly smaller diameter than that of the previous piece cut out from the Renault wheel. Take the centre piece and mark the position at which it will be perfectly central. Grind away the paint and weld both sides to ensure structural rigidity.
Please note, we have made this wheel in order to reduce the overall width of the front of the car for when we put it on our trailer. As such, we won’t be subjecting the wheel to more than 5mph. Chase Racing cannot be held responsible to any damage caused to yourself or your vehicle if you attempt to re-enact any of the actions shown above.
The Chase Racing guide to developing a space saver wheel for a Renault Sport Clio:
Take one Renault steel wheel, place over rear hub and carefully cut a perfect circle. (Chase Racing cannot be held responsible for any personal injury caused from emulating what you can see in the following image)
Hopefully, if nothing has gone wrong, you should create a piece that looks a little bit like this:
Then, take one Vauxhall Vectra space saver wheel (16 inch), carefully cut out the centre to a slightly smaller diameter than that of the previous piece cut out from the Renault wheel. Take the centre piece and mark the position at which it will be perfectly central. Grind away the paint and weld both sides to ensure structural rigidity.
Please note, we have made this wheel in order to reduce the overall width of the front of the car for when we put it on our trailer. As such, we won’t be subjecting the wheel to more than 5mph. Chase Racing cannot be held responsible to any damage caused to yourself or your vehicle if you attempt to re-enact any of the actions shown above.
