cliosport......i could really do with a bit of help on handling :(

[Ex-User (72296)]

Did it have this issue before you had all the parts replaced?

Surely if you didnt have the issue before.. they have either fitted the parts wrong or used second hand (fucked) parts?

 

[...]

Right missed this thread as i was away on holiday , a few questions i want answered that might help ....


you describe the car as floaty when on a motorway drive , now this to me means its moving left and right whilst driving straight ? is that correct?

the road itself can have a large effect on this if you run alot of toe or camber , however looking at your settings this is not the case .

The next thing and this is the most common reason on fwd cars for a feeling of floating or the front wandering and thats the bottom wishbone inner bushes , the way you can confirm it (and tugging them does not always work ) is see if when you press and release the accelerator the car seems to change direction (eg puls one way slightly on throttle and then the other or straight as you lift off )

nothing in your print out is flagging up to me a car that will feel odd , your camber is out to a point you won't feel it the left to right is half a degree ish out .... nothing on the road .

if its floaty something has play in it , the settings are not your problem ......

easiest way to sort the wishbones is fit a new set they aren't hugely pricey , and its an easier job to do than fitting new bushes .


​let us know how you get on .



edit

also i have looked and looked again , and i can't see any massive rear camber difference? between before and after ? the toe yes , but looking at how far that to me looks like something odd with the equipment or how it went on the car ......

​the figures in the final sheet all look perfectly reasonable

I can't see the alignment place have any reason to refund? and they sound like they have been more than helpful , none of this is down to them , something is worn

whats the age/mileage on the car

 

[jinjur]

Morning guys, thanks for all of your input.....

​Forgot to upload yesterdays results which for all intents and purposes, tally up with the previous one. The front tow was out again though and it hasn't been hit or touched since :S

Swede:
Bottom arms are original items, ball joints are both Lemforder brand and both were replaced.
Not sure how to check the sub-frame exactly but a visual inspection highlighted no obvious bends or damage, same for the wishbones, i cant see anything wrong.

Davvy:
I don't know bud. I wouldn't generally climb to the speeds that it really becomes an issue at very often. Not too many derelict, unused airport runways this neck of the woods. *ahem*
i do know, that I have been at "speed" in the car before this on the old suspension and I do recall feeling nothing but safe. Right now, i don't have ANY confidence going over 60 never mind further.
​I fitted the parts myself mucker and everything was new. I am no mechanic, but I am savvy enough. I have checked my work twice now and i don't see anything wrong.

Harv:
Hope you enjoyed your holiday bud.
Yes mate, when i get to speed in the car, it almost feels like I am having to correct the wheel all of the time and not one correction does the job. It never settles if you know what I mean. I know these cars are lively, but I have never been in one that looked or felt so unsettled.
With regards to your check for wishbone play, I will try that on the way home mate. i do think it does that ever so slightly though.
yeah, I said rear camber but I meant rear toe and the guys did tell me that there must have been a problem with one of the readings, possibly one of the gauges or sensors wasn't mounted right. Last 2 results tally up with that.
I don't want a refund from the guys, they have been too cool and very helpful. They are just as keen to help out as you could want to be honest and i am convinced that they have done their job perfectly. i will do nothing but praise them tbh.
I will see if i can afford the wishbones and try and get them swapped. Failing that, I am lost.

Once again, thanks for all of your excellent input guys.

Regards
Andy

 

[...]

Morning guys, thanks for all of your input.....

​Forgot to upload yesterdays results which for all intents and purposes, tally up with the previous one. The front tow was out again though and it hasn't been hit or touched since :S

Swede:
Bottom arms are original items, ball joints are both Lemforder brand and both were replaced.
Not sure how to check the sub-frame exactly but a visual inspection highlighted no obvious bends or damage, same for the wishbones, i cant see anything wrong.

Davvy:
I don't know bud. I wouldn't generally climb to the speeds that it really becomes an issue at very often. Not too many derelict, unused airport runways this neck of the woods. *ahem*
i do know, that I have been at "speed" in the car before this on the old suspension and I do recall feeling nothing but safe. Right now, i don't have ANY confidence going over 60 never mind further.
​I fitted the parts myself mucker and everything was new. I am no mechanic, but I am savvy enough. I have checked my work twice now and i don't see anything wrong.

Harv:
Hope you enjoyed your holiday bud.
Yes mate, when i get to speed in the car, it almost feels like I am having to correct the wheel all of the time and not one correction does the job. It never settles if you know what I mean. I know these cars are lively, but I have never been in one that looked or felt so unsettled.
With regards to your check for wishbone play, I will try that on the way home mate. i do think it does that ever so slightly though.
yeah, I said rear camber but I meant rear toe and the guys did tell me that there must have been a problem with one of the readings, possibly one of the gauges or sensors wasn't mounted right. Last 2 results tally up with that.
I don't want a refund from the guys, they have been too cool and very helpful. They are just as keen to help out as you could want to be honest and i am convinced that they have done their job perfectly. i will do nothing but praise them tbh.
I will see if i can afford the wishbones and try and get them swapped. Failing that, I am lost.

Once again, thanks for all of your excellent input guys.

Regards
Andy

Andy the fact that they checked it and the toe is out points me to wishbone bushes .... what were the toe figues ? Has it moved the same amount either side ? ... it could be the rack but I think its more likely inner wishbone bushes ...
Thinking about it it wont have moved the same each side ... can I hazzard a guess its the nearside that's out or changed most ?

 

[Sir_Dave]

Another thing to check would be the actual shocks. From memory, on Ollie's brothers PH1 172, Ktec fitted PH2 dampers in error.

The camber was all over the place until we fitted the correct Ph1 dampers to the car.

 

[jinjur]

Another thing to check would be the actual shocks. From memory, on Ollie's brothers PH1 172, Ktec fitted PH2 dampers in error.

The camber was all over the place until we fitted the correct Ph1 dampers to the car.

Thread bump time.

OK, never got this sorted. Haven't been well again

However, lovely missus treated me to some lush pilot sports that I don't want to chew and the steering is still bonkers over certain speeds.

Just to clarify and I know this is down to me not sorting it, the car destroyed a front set of brand new conti sport 3 since my last post in April.

Can't have this.

Bottom arms ordered today.

With regards to the shocks, these are PH 2 items ordered in Renault with a chassis number. If I post that number up can someone verify they are correct for me? I am assuming they aren't sided....was that a mistake?

I have also just noticed one of the kyb rear shocks has dumped all of its oil never stops ffs

New genuine items will be ordered as soon as I can afford them.

So, if I do the bottom arms up front that will be everything apart from the rack bushes replaced.

Regards
Andy

 

[Dan@SJM]

The rear shock leaking will make the handling horrendous. I drove one a few weeks ago that tried to kill me at 70mph with a lane change.

 

[jinjur]

Hear what you are saying Dan mate, I'll dig into the coffers and see if I can get those now too.

Could a dead rear shock attribute to chewed insides of front tyres too if is that strictly down to geometry issues/wear of bushes/bent lower arms?

 

[MG cup]

No offense but someone who knows what they're doing needs to look at it tbh, that can only be caused by crazy camber (very unlikely) or the tracking moving around because of a worn bush, that latter will be totally obvious when driving it. Steering wheel will be off centre on the straight ahead or having to saw at the wheel during acceleration and braking.

Front shocks are sided mate, you would be best ordering a full new set of cup shocks from Adam @ Wolverhampton or even the front two, makes sense to have a little upgrade for the price of buttons between them and normal ones. You'll get a set of 4 cup shocks delivered for £180.

 

[jinjur]

No offense but someone who knows what they're doing needs to look at it tbh, that can only be caused by crazy camber (very unlikely) or the tracking moving around because of a worn bush, that latter will be totally obvious when driving it. Steering wheel will be off centre on the straight ahead or having to saw at the wheel during acceleration and braking.

Front shocks are sided mate, you would be best ordering a full new set of cup shocks from Adam @ Wolverhampton or even the front two, makes sense to have a little upgrade for the price of buttons between them and normal ones. You'll get a set of 4 cup shocks delivered for £180.

No offense taken bud, but if I am being honest.....I trust my work more than most garages in northern Ireland.....I worked in a garage myself for 6 years.

Don't want to stick cup shocks in as its not a cup nor does it have cup springs etc.

The 2 fronts are only 4 months old from Renault and when you say they are sided, that worries me as Renault gave me 2 the same, part number 8200681106

Can anyone confirm if the front shocks are definitely sided and if the above part is then wrong for both sides of a phase 2 172, non cup?

Regards
Andy

 

[MG cup]

I'm pretty sure they are sided on the fronts, maybe not though.

I thought you were away to order new shocks but I mis read, you already have the shocks, your just needing conformation if their sided.

 

[jinjur]

No bud, not according to Adam's list below

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?699553-Prices-on-fast-moving-items!

Had me doubting myself there buddy

 

[MG cup]

There you go then, had a doubt myself tbh, I could recall there being abs loom clips on them which would mean they're sided but obviously not.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Cup shocks with non cup springs will be fine. I fit cup shocks and wishbones as part of my suspension refresh package.

 

[KevF182]

A refreshed front end and still it chewed up the front tyres?... its clearly not aligned right. If it were mine I'd re-check the tracking (toe) on different equipment before doing anything else.

The rear shock wont help handling but wouldn't be the cause of wear on the front tyre. What was the wear like?

 

[jinjur]

A refreshed front end and still it chewed up the front tyres?... its clearly not aligned right. If it were mine I'd re-check the tracking (toe) on different equipment before doing anything else.

The rear shock wont help handling but wouldn't be the cause of wear on the front tyre. What was the wear like?

Yeah bud, i know....not great. All of my alignment attempts are earlier in this thread.

Unfortunately, not many 4 wheel Corghi type alignment chaps here but these guys are usually good.

Wish i had taken a photo of the tyres, didn't i am afraid. Wear was the inside edge of both. Middle and outside had around 4mm left, real waste.

A



Yeah Yeah

 

[KevF182]

Not criticising you at all mate.... I've read it all, and remember it from earlier in the year too. You've had it tough by the sounds of it, all that effort and still not right etc...

But like I say, the numerous alignments have not been productive, the last one I can see you've put up is March (you've had it done since but you only mention that toe needed altering slightly again). This either means something is worn, or their equipment is not reliable. It doesn't need to be a four wheel lazer place to check toe, surely somewhere else can check toe?

edit: since the wear heavy only on the inside edges of both it's probably got far too much toe-out. That might also be giving it too much neg camber (adjusting one effects other to a small degree, as I'm sure you will know). Can't work out why that would be, but I'd bet its toeing out loads. despite the previous print-outs

 

[KevF182]

One more thing... did you make sure you got the right lower baljoints when you did them? two sizes are available, I'm pretty sure 12mm ones you need. Sorry If I'm clutching a t straws, just trying to think of anything and everything I can!

 

[MG cup]

Good shout that, another possibility if its the smaller bolt type thats been fitted by mistake.

 

[jinjur]

One more thing... did you make sure you got the right lower baljoints when you did them? two sizes are available, I'm pretty sure 12mm ones you need. Sorry If I'm clutching a t straws, just trying to think of anything and everything I can!

And i very much appreciate that bud because my head is melted

Good point gents.......as far as i recall, it was the exact same bottom joint i ordered before from ECP (i keep all the receipts and just bring them with me for repeats)

Ill check that this week

Appreciate the hard work guys

A

 

[jinjur]

Good shout that, another possibility if its the smaller bolt type thats been fitted by mistake.

Ok.....can you just clarify for me which bolt is the one who's size differs?

is it the one that goes up into the hub or is it the bolt size of the 2 that fasten the arm to the joint?

A

 

[Renault Wolverhampton]

iirc its the ones that join them to the arm

 

[MG cup]

^^ ball joint bolts, not the hub pinch bolt.

 

[Renault Wolverhampton]

yeah my wording sucks!

 

[jinjur]

cheers chaps......this could very well be a candidate but either way, new front arms will go in with the joints already on and if that doesnt fix it.....i will be utterly lost

oh, and just splashed out for new rear shocks too so that will be everything replaced

 

[MG cup]

yeah my wording sucks!

Wasnt at you Adam

 

[Chip-mk1]

cheers chaps......this could very well be a candidate but either way, new front arms will go in with the joints already on and if that doesnt fix it.....i will be utterly lost

oh, and just splashed out for new rear shocks too so that will be everything replaced

Rear shocks on these cars have a BIG influence, I cant name another car where they matter so much TBH!

 

[Martin_172]

Rear shocks on these cars have a BIG influence, I cant name another car where they matter so much TBH!

have to agree there I nearly sold my first 172 as I just didn't get on with it at all and didn't see what the big deal was with them, I had no confidence in it at speed limits never mind faster and then it failed its first mot on a leaking rear shock! the new pair transformed it into the car the magazines were ranting about!

 

[jinjur]

have to agree there I nearly sold my first 172 as I just didn't get on with it at all and didn't see what the big deal was with them, I had no confidence in it at speed limits never mind faster and then it failed its first mot on a leaking rear shock! the new pair transformed it into the car the magazines were ranting about!

I have high hopes for the outcome here bud

I miss the way the car used to be.......i used to go out JUST for a run down country roads

Right now, I am cautious driving down the motorway

 

[Dan@SJM]

Change the rear shocks. 100%.

 

[jinjur]

Brill.....i know it wont fix the scrubbing of the tyres but looking forward to improved handling.

Its a nice wee job too

 

[snowey172]

I know it's a different car but my old Octavia vrs was the same as yours changed nearly every bush at the front end get it tracked felt great for 10 miles or so then awful again wandering on the motorway eating tyres a this point I hadn't changed the lower wishbone bush as to the eye and with a bar it felt ok but got it on a shaker plate and you could see the extent of the wear so ordered next bushes and when I went to fit them the old ones basically fell out they was that worn new bushes tracked up again and good as new

 

[jinjur]

I know it's a different car but my old Octavia vrs was the same as yours changed nearly every bush at the front end get it tracked felt great for 10 miles or so then awful again wandering on the motorway eating tyres a this point I hadn't changed the lower wishbone bush as to the eye and with a bar it felt ok but got it on a shaker plate and you could see the extent of the wear so ordered next bushes and when I went to fit them the old ones basically fell out they was that worn new bushes tracked up again and good as new

I am almost fully aroused at the prospects of the above conversations

 

[jinjur]

More castor versions or no?

I'll never be near a track and just want it factory fresh

 

[Chip-mk1]

More castor versions or no?

I'll never be near a track and just want it factory fresh

Yes go for more caster versions, even on the road there is no disadvantage other than a tiny bit more load on the power steering pump during manouvring.

 

[jinjur]

Right, really not the outcome i was hoping for

Bottom arms replaced with genuine Renault items......(R8200257956 & R8200257957) and were the same ones as originally fitted to car. Makes sense being a late 03.

I also replaced both rear shocks for brand new Renault items (8200662257).

Had to drive it for a day like that as work was a bit intense and noted the steering was terrible.....steering wheel was about 10 degrees out driving straight down the motorway and the car was pulling like a lunatic over differing surfaces. Kinda expected that with the work i had just carried out.

So popped down to my local ATS today (different place from the previous alignments) and they dropped it on the machine and said the alignment was perfect. I queried this and they did it again right in front of me, showing me the details of each setting. This was just the "hang laser over the tyre" method as i couldn't get up to the Corghi machine.

So now, according to these guys, the car is aligned.

Every single thing I thought could be responsible for the grim handling has been replaced and now i am just baffled......and broke

Lets summarize:

Replaced:

Bottom wishbones (Genuine Renault)
All 4 shocks (Genuine Renault)
Inner tie rods (First Line FTR5277)
TRE's (Lemforder)
Top mounts/bearings (KYB SM1514)


Help?



Jinj

 

[MG cup]

Take it to someone that knows what they're doing as I said about 3 pages ago iirc, I don't want to hear I do to have time/money, I can do my own work etc lol. You'll be 44 before its fixed if you keep on the way you are and amassed half the tinterwebs memory with your problem.

 

[jinjur]

Brilliant.

Thanks

 

[KevF182]

How frustrating! You've got your new tyres on, right? (brand new michelins, If I recall rightly).

I guess the toe can't be miles out if ATS have said its straight, but it will be worthwhile aligning it properly again. The steering wheel is not straight so having it done properly will sort that at the very least.

Is the main problem that it wore out the old fronts and that the car wanders and feels very unstable at modest speeds? At what point did the car go from being great to drive to having this issue? Am I right in reading that it was when the front end parts were re-freshed so lots of work was done in one go?

 

[Dan@SJM]

If the steering wheel wasn't straight and you were going in a straight line, it's not fine.