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Thank you Tom.
Now here is food for thought! And this is a question before I get shot down in a hail of bullets.
Did Reno find that the 172 wasnt selling that well due to the reasonably high price, so they thought let create a cheaper cut down version (that isnt going to cost a fortune to develope), come up with a nice story about it being a racier version etc, change a couple of bits here and there.......hey presto a car that is only a bit more expensive than a 1.6 Dynamique. And it sells like hot cakes!
Is the cup a poor mans 172???
Reno didnt need the cup for Rallying, the 172 could of been used!
Just a thought!
The Jinx
Im sure just as many will fall for the 182 marketing excercise....
A classic, no, no modern car will really become a classic as we know classics. They are produced in such large numbers and they are facelifted so often that unlike say the escort which took nearly 2 decades to evolve through 2 marks, they will just linger. So many new models come out at the moment so reguarly that they are disposable.
why should the cup become one and not the MK1, or the 16V, or the new megane RS.
when i see a williams drive up the road past me or behind me, i admire it untill its passed or while its in my rear view mirror.... when a 172 cup does the same, i look and then get back too what i was originally doing, it doesnt have an overly "wow" factor too it like the williams did, i look at the cup as a cut down 172 with diffrent paint, wheels and less weight. nothing special in that too make it a classic!
The Jinx
But do young lads notice it. Future classics are often bought by the people that grew up with them. Hence mkI Golfs and 205 GTIs reaching classic status now.
The Jinx
I dont like the blue either TBH. Far too common these days (scoobys etc, PUG 180s, etc)
The Cup will be a sought after model, but I think its too early to tell if its classic material. Inevitably, its going to come up against the Williams and V6 in the desirability stakes. Mk1 172 prices are basically at the level of a mint Williams now - and some people like me decide to buy a car thats 8 years older and missing lots of toys. The Cup isnt at the £6k mark yet, so it has still to meet its No.1 competitor in the desirability stakes (i.e. Willy).
The Willy was a homologation car (as the 16V had previously been, not many know that one) for Renaults Group A rally antics. Yes, thats Group A as in against the likes of the Delta Integrale, Escort Cosworth etc. Even the 16V was 1.5 seconds per mile faster than Renaults legendary Group B Maxi 5 Turbo, despite a massive power deficit. Just shows how good the handling was. Then they exploited the class rules to up the engine to 2.0 with a parts bin special - the Willy was the homologation car. They later added a turbo and massive arches to create the Clio Maxi. These were the fastest FWD rally car ever - RIP. Now the class limit is 1600cc and Renault have the "Super 1600"... not really as good as the glory days of the early 1990s.
The Cup is a very popular car and well known - but the fuss is a little less than when the Willy came out. Ive kept all the Cup literature I can find, just as I did when the Williams was new 10 years ago. Willy praise included:
"...the most exciting FWD driving machine yet created" (Autosport)
"...addicted to Renaults 2-litre pocket rocket homologation special. Its the best FWD car Ive ever driven...the Clio Williams has no peer" (CCC)
"...the best small hot hatchback weve driven" (What Car?)
"Best Hot Hatch Ever" (Evo)
"Few 4WD supercars can compete at this level either in terms of endearment or cornering speeds" (Autosport)
The Willy was a truly groundbreaking car at the time - the one that stole the mantle from the 205 GTi. It was also relatively more expensive than either the Cup or 172 (allowing for inflation), just as the 16V was. Im not sure that any car has really moved the game on massively in the way the Willy did.
Sorry, Ill have another race with you when I have done the same mods hey Jon?Quote: Originally posted by Roamer on 16 January 2004
Hot hatches are getting more powerful, but also more heavy too.... the Williams can hold its own against cars 10 YEARS younger than itself - I know - Ive got the video to prove it - eh Yoz?
I can put my Chip (as your is with HP chip)
Exhaust etc...
and I dont think the cup will be a classic, i think it will be well respected as will a lot of cars of this era...
;-)
I always notice, williams, 16v, 172s AND Cups and always have a good look, they all stand out to me, but then Im tuned into them!!
My car ignorant friend, loves my car, it was the first time shes ever noticed that Id changed my car in 10 years (thats a lot of cars!). She sees it as a man magnet, the amount of men who strike up a conversation with us based on the 172.....but thats another thread!!!
Any Willy, 16V, 172, Cup or V6 in mint condition WILL be a classic to us on here in 20years time!!
A relative of mine has a mint classic Capri mark 1 (he used to rally them), and there were loads of them made.
FN2 Type R +MK6 Golf
I like both models to be fair but i dont think we are looking at a legend in the making.
For a start F1 was not involved in the cup like the williams so the heritage is not there for the cup.I think its quite poor that the williams is involved in this,it should be left alone to wallow in glory FROM OVER TEN YRS AGO,this is how bad its getting and the cup has not moved the game on as much as the williams did.I cant help but feel the cup was more a marketing gimmick to sell some shells coz the new model is around the corner.I am however not disssing the cup i do like it more than any ctr or other hatch at the moment,just not mine.I do like my gadgets like you dont but at least someone out there cares enough to build both.That is something knowone else does at the moment for £13,000.
EVO did a group test of all the clios in issue 50 dec 2002 and concluded that if anyone had a cup on order they should be very happy indeed after it blew the v6 into the weeds by over 2 secs a lap.
At the end though they also made this quote:
"The 172 is softer than the cup and as a result more fun.Its very easy to move both ends of the car around.I dont really like fwd,so being so easy to get the back out is a bonus.The cup is better planted,undoubtedly faster but nowhere as easy to adjust its atittude in a corner-youve really got to indulge in some pretty positive left foot breaking or crudelift-off to loosen the back.And whilst the weight saving measures do make a difference,loosing the ABS is a bad move.Although the cup is ultimately quicker,the 172 makes the most sense as an everyday car and occasional trackday tool..
Regards,ian
I dont think the cup will become a classic, look at real classics ie Lancias Escort cosworths,maybe the williams and the modern classic the subaru impreza. These are all cars with racing pedigree. the clio is used as a juniour step to touring cars or F3000.
There is nothing wrong with the cup but you ask a few people to name cars of today that will be classics they will all say the subaru impreza and the Evo becos they are the cars that win multi-branded compititions.
Nother thing you ask joe bloggs on the street to name a hot hatch an i bet 60% have never heard of the 172 nevermind the 172 cup! they will all say the Type-R.
And why should the cup be a classic and not the 172. its the same car! When i bought my last clio i had the choice of air con or not! the 1 without was no better a car just cos it didnt have aircon, still the same bloody engine in the same sized car!!
No Never! Classic status comes from such things as its heritage, exclusivity or pure driving experience.
If renault had stuck to its origional plans of a "limited" production of cups then it may have been in with a chance but with the way theyve fizzled out the 172 and basically produced a stock 172 with "cup" extras and other "cup" colours its all gone to pot! The V6 Clios will forever fall into the catagory or the old renault 5 Turbo 2s as a classic
They did a very similar thing with the williams by bringing out 3 different versions, if they stuck to the origonal williams 1 then god knows how rare and expensive they would be now!
Not that im complaning tho - i luv my williams 3 better than all!
Remapped derv Golf
Come out people................theyll all be classics when the oil runs out!
Its already over 80p a litre!!! (in the South East)
When were all driving round in electric (or even half petrol/eletric) cars in 30 years time. Well all be thinking about our fun days in our old hot hatches!
Yep I agree!....Even though there nice cars they dont have the same following. Ask anyone with a small amount of knowledge what a Williams Clio is and they know...ask about a CUP and they havent a clue!.........Plus its not a thoroughbred!
Elise/VX220/R26
I think its hard to tell weather it will be a classic. Classics can often become sought after years after release and something thats got all the makings of a classic might just fade into obscurity.
I certainly think that the 172/cup (lets face it they are the same car FFS!) are one of the most overlooked cars around. I mean a 172 BHP pucker hot hatch and its never been on top gear...WTF is that all about? I think its overshadowed by stuff like the CTR and add to that the fact that 99% of manufacturers have a hot hatch derivative(SP?) of their models these days its hard to stand out. I myself wasnt even aware of the 172 existance when I was looking to buy a new car. It was only by looking down the performance figures in the back of a magazine that I chose it. I guess its just not the sort of car you see on the road and think "whoa I WANT one of those" My fav thing about the 172 is that its so discrete. When all the current max power.fast and furious trend blows over maybe the 172 will emerge as as classic because of its subtlety.
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