cup v 172.. weight loss and performance.

[Captain Slarty]

Ok, just calculated some figures for the clio cup 172.. in relation to the normal top of the range 172.

by loosing apx 190 lbs of weight, the difference is equivelent to 8.39 horsepower at the wheels, thats it.. thats all she wrote.

so the choice is 8.39 at the wheels (.33 less time over standning quarter) or

all the toys..

for a mere 8.39 bhp differenc ein performance terms, I will keep me climate controlled air conditioning, leather, windscreen with heat reflection, sound deadening, spare wheel - yes. a real allow wheel that can be used to replace a damaged one -

etc etc..

Just pondering..

Joe

 

[ChavyBoy]

OK 8.39bhp at the wheels, what in terms of power at the crank ?

 

[Anders]

I agree with ya Captain. I wasnt that impressed with Cup at all, yep its lighter and a tiny bit quicker (didnt really notice much). I reckon most will buy the 172 for the additional bits, but if you are buying the Cup for a trackday toy then I would spend the cash on something else!

 

[Captain Slarty]

Hi Chavvy..

11 at the flywheel..

in other words, to make the 172 perform the same as a cup, with al the extra comforts, you would need to add about 11bhp at the flywheel.

there would be no difference in performance then.

the suspension mods at the front may be worthwhile. The castor angle has been increase slightly (Probably accounting for the 3mm drop - and accomplished by locating the lower strut mount several mm towards the rear of the car, the track increase is caused by the negative camber..

probably redrilling 2 holes at each side can make those changes, will measure parts from a cup and let ya know.. (Otherwise stad 172 suspension with 2 holes in slightly different places lol..)

to put things into perspective, you can lose that much power by having your tyre pressures too low.

and, the handling charactersitics can be equalled by drilling 4 holes and devoting a few hours of your time (nothing tricky)

Joe.

 

[Captain Slarty]

Anders, yes Sir, I agree too.

for a track day car,, you could buy one hell of a lot of car for 12k !.. and the cup wouldnt be on the top of my list

I really do think its a marketting exercise..

Joe

 

[ChavyBoy]

So for arguments sake a decent cold air induction feed and a decent back box and a remapped ecu would hopefully give you the little extra bhp ?

 

[Captain Slarty]

dont think you would need that..

the exhaust is pretty good to startwith.. I wouldnt bother chipping a normally asperated car either ..

Nick Hills induction kit is one of the few that actually works, so when he sorts out the top end fuelling (and thats already being prepared, then you should get good results... but again.. you would only ever see those sort of figures in action at a track. not on the road.

 

[Pugboy]

youre all in denial! air con shmair con!, shmalcantara! these cars are for (less well off) drivers not quims... you all secretly want a cup but have to make do with your common version.

pugboy aka fun in a c-cup

 

[Captain Slarty]

LOL Pugboy

why on earth would guys with a 172 want a cup .. maybe the other way around me thinks...

everytime a knowledgable driver sees a cup.. they will say..

"oh look, its one of them new cup clios.. the ones for the guys who cant afford the real thing"

and all owners will be damned, hell will spit fire, the ground will open up...

hmmmmmmmm, business idea.. aftermarket fitting of leather and aircon LMAO !!

Joe

 

[telford_mike]

One of the Renault guys that I was chatting to at the Palmersport event told me that the rationale behind the Cup was to give Renault a better chance of competing in the market space occupied by the Peugeot 206 GTI. Which is fair enough, particularly when you consider the French market.

 

[Pugboy]

...well mr captain dumpvalve (ive seen you at the drivethru with your mates in their rsts!) youre having to turbocharge your common 172 to avoid serious embarrassment from the lower (although not much) and wider and meaner looking, and not red! real drivers clio......

 

[ChavyBoy]

Oh dear you didnt want to p1ss him off.

Let hell have no fury...

 

[Pillesnoppen]

At the end of the day the Cup is cheaper than the standard issue. I dont think anyone reasonably intelligent is under the assumpton that a Cup is going to be apprecaibly faster than the normal 172, I certainly am not, but a couple of grand extra for air con etc was not an option to me and my wife, when we sold the Caterham for 13 grand. So we are spending that same amount on something with a roof.

It was the same story with the 306 Rallye. Bought one cheap, and it had a sh*te equipment list compared to the model every other plonker bought, but it was great fun.

Now the argument about buying a USED 172 starts, or that you can get an IMPORT for less than 13 grand, but that really is irrelevant. My last two cars were imports, and when it came to resale, I lost what I had originally saved, not to mention that most buyers wont touch a used import for religious reasons or something, even if it is identical to the "official" ones.

So we ordered a Cup, under no false illusions, simply because we both like the 172 and simply because we enjoyed the Rallye despite its equipment shortcomings, and simply because it was cheaper.

I think a lot of people who have ordered a Cup have done so for those same reasons.

And for the same reason some families buy a Mondeo LX rather than a Ghia X because they do not feel like spending the extra money on extra bits...

 

[Rich-D]

Pugboy -

Do you know how old the captain is?!

Not your typical Clio 172 driver thats for sure...

(not that your old or owt Joe! )

- - - - - -

As for the Cup vs the 172, I would prefer a Cup due to its "claimed" handling benefits and not the fact that it weighs a bit less and may be a bit quicker. Meant to have better brakes and stuff too, plus I heard a rumour that the gearing was shorter. These are all things that will make for a different driving experience.

I also LOVE the colour and the wheels.

 

[BenR]

pugboy...you talkin bout a willy then?!

 

[BRUN]

CS.....i would bother chipping it

but only if its a Hill Power one, my car felt a LOT better after the chip, i didnt think i would notice it, but i did

 

[Scudetto]

Captain S,

Whats your thoughts on the standard 172 steering? I just feel it lets the car down a bit - the turn in isnt crisp and at times, on tight low speed bends, the cars feels clumsy and very heavy at the front (not surprising I guess). The weighting is good, but thats all I can think of that I like about it - the only feedback it gives is torque steer or tramlining. I love my 172, but I wish wish wish, theyd given it quicker and crisper steering.

In your opinion, could it be made better or am I stuck with it? (the cars on Contis if that makes a difference).

cheers,

g

g

 

[Eddd]

At least we can be thankful that Renault is charging less for the Cup and Ragnottti. If they were Porsche they would charge more for stripping the car out!

 

[Captain Slarty]

LOL Pugboy

Yep, bloody thing is so embarassing.. need more power Egor... keep getting blown off by Craggy on a 0-100 run lol..


As for resale price of imports (They ARE official UK spec.. and ALL clios are imported ).. interesting, but I dont think it holds up.. there is NOTHING on my logbook that shows the car as an import... zilch.. so, no price difference at resale.. My car is a UK sourced and supplied car via holland, others are via....err.. well.. France..

the import or not argument is Sir, I believe, overstated , overrated and propogated by renault dealers to aid sales.. same as tales of differing spec if imported.. and the warranty details which the friendly reno dealers misguide customers with.

If someone buys a CUP because of financial reasons or really really doesnt want the luxuries and creature comforts, the kewl.. more power to yer elbow..

but to buy one for performance reasons over the 172 would be misguided.

(All my humble opinion of course )



Joe.

 

[Captain Slarty]

Rich, Hiya M8..

as for changes on the cup suspension..
I think you will find the following.

revised bottom ball joint mounting.. this will increase camber and castor angles giving a slightly wider track and lowering the car by a few mm (Due to KPI angle increase only)

the front springs are slightly more progressive - ie.. not really different

Engine.. same

Box and ratios.. same

so, its a clio 172 with goodies removed and a revised bottom ball joint that you could alter yourself for pennies.

Joe..

 

[Eddd]

Joe,

You are right about the negligible performance gains through the reduction in weight and in all probablity the suapension changes would be unnotticed by most and easy to replicate if need be. However, on a circuit, with acceleration positive, negative and lateral, the weight savings can lead to measurable gains. And a car even slightly lighter does feel a bit better when pushed to the limits.

And it is cheaper!

 

[Captain Slarty]

Agreed Eddd.

On a circuit (not track day, but proper racing) every little helps. and yes, that extra virtual power - or more correctly increase in power to weight ration would be benficial.

Just not really on a road car...

Joe