Engine mounts

[visceral]

how much movement should i expect when wobbling the engine on my 172?

it moves around 5mm with a rubbery squeeking sound, i am trying to get to the bottom of this accelerating in first banging i get (its quite a heavy banging as it causes the cd player to jump).

stuffed a saab 93 last night, but the experience was somewhat dulled by the above noise on launch.

paul.

 

[KDF]

dunno, but if you get the knocking fixed, let me know where and what I should have replaced.

My car also suffers from the knocking noise, although not to the extent of making the CD player jump

 

[rt172]

Every quickish car that I have owned has made the same banging noise when thrashed in the old traffic light GP. Even the bloody 206 GTi makes the banging noise you describe. My 172 did have a very loose engine that could be shaken around easily by hand, but are you sure this noise is the engine? Could it not be what Ive heard described as "axel tramp"?

Rhys

 

[Steveold]

you calling me a tramp?

 

[paddymph]

Siomn 172 had this, its the loose engine mount below the battery!

 

[visceral]

yep - bet it is paddy, it sounds though its coming from that side.

 

[KDF]

Right.. thats IT !!!

*gets real serious*



TONIGHT, car is going into my garage, and I am gonna have a look at this engine mount..

can you take the battery out without disconnecting it.. as I dont know the radio code for the stereo..

Oh ye, it deffinatly sounds asthough it is comming from the battery side of the car.

Does it just need tightend or replaced ?

 

[paul172 .]

Rhys172 is right, its called AXLE TRAMP all the 172s suffer from it mostly in the wet, its because the car cannot get no traction its got nothing 2 do with the engine mounts. test drive around 200 172s aweek for renault import centre and it happens to all of them.

 

[KDF]

okay in that case, could you explain fully in lamens terms (or as close as you can get) what "axle tramp" is.

My car only bangs under wheelspin, if It gets the grip it doesnt bang.

A conversation with Renualt and myself...

ME: Hi
RENAULT: Hello sir.
ME: My car makes a banging noise when the front wheels spin
RENAULT: dont spin the front wheels.. next...

 

[paul172 .]

Its somthink u cannot fix all 172s do it when the car wheel spins. Just try not to floor it to much in 1st, Mine does it all the time in the wet if i floor it

 

[VR6man]

it depends....

i had a knocking noise under acceleration which WAS a loose engine mount...

under the battery.. and no, i dont think it would be easy to do it without taking the battery out...

THAT noise has now gone... i do get something which sounds a bit like "axle tramp" now though.....

but the other noise was different.. more of a resonant note..... (its the downpipe hitting something because of the engine movement)

 

[KDF]

Regardless,

I think I will have a look at this engine mount. It really cant do any harm, I took it to renault and they said there was nothing wrong, so if I find a loose engine mount and fix the problem I will go mental on them.

So just to re-itterate .. what is axel tramp ?

 

[visceral]

Right, did abit of research on "Axle tramp"

<A name=axle_tramp>Axle Tramp
A form of http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/glossary/glossary_u_z.xml#wheel_hopU color=#800080wheel hop/U that occurs on cars with live axles, caused by the axle repeatedly rotating slightly with the wheels and then springing back.

<A name=wheel_hop>Wheel hop
An undesirable suspension characteristic in which a wheel (or several) moves up and down so violently that it actually leaves the ground. Wheel hop can be caused by many problems, including excessive unsprung weight, insufficient shock damping, or poor torsional axle control.

courtesy of - http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/glossary/glossary_j_k_l.xml#lhttp://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/glossary/glossary_j_k_l.xml#l

this might explain the cd jarring banging i experienced - incidently all have been in the wet, when the front lets go.

Im gonna go drill some holes in my alloys and fit cut slicks - ill get that unsprung weight down

 

[Eddd]

My take on axle tramp is that the suspension just cant handle the resonance or whatever of the tyre when it is struggling to find traction. Things start bouncing and the tyre gets traction for a moment and then loses it and with all the compliance in the rubber bits, the springs and the normal suspension travel, things just get a bit out of hand. You certainly know it when it happens.

 

[Eddd]

I wouldnt limit axle tramp strictly to live axle cars. Same thing more or less happens on the front drivers as well, except the bit that is rocking back and forth is the engine/transaxle.

 

[KDF]

Still gonna check engine mount, but what are the chances of uprated suspension (lowered/stiffend) sorting it out ?

oh and cheers for finding out what it meant for me

 

[visceral]

so it sounds like a suspension modification is the only real cure then, either that or stay inside when it rains!

ur right Eddd about knowing it when it happens, it sounds like a 1000cc twin with no exhaust!

 

[Simon]

I had the same problem as VR6man and Simon172 and thanks to their advice told the local Renault Dealer what to do and they fixed it. had the problem for nearly a year and a half and now its gone. The only time I get axle tramp which is a slight different noise is if I try and floor it in a low gear and it is wet or icy on the road.

 

[paddymph]

simon-u saying it was engine mounts then?

 

[visceral]

Aghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is this noise?

The noise is a REALLY heavy banging under acceleration, so far it has only happened in the wet (only having had the car since mid Dec, never drove it in the dry!!)

It knocks the CD player for 6 its that heavy! It does only seem to happen when the wheels begin to lose traction, maybe a second or so into a fast start not str8 away.

 

[paddymph]

Im 90% sure its engine mounts as mine does it and i spoke to Simon172 about it and he said it was DEFFO this, this is what Simon172 posted check this out:

if they dont fix your knocking under wheelspin - tell them its the engine mount underneath the battery that is the wrong bolt or loose. When they did that on mine it seemed to fix it. Alternatively get your garage to ring SMC Renault Woking on 01483 720322 as theyve fixed a few 172s with the knocking under acceleration - it seems the other garages dont have a clue on how to fix this.

 

[VR6man]

well i would RULE OUT the engine mount first !!!

at the end of the day, if its that then it needs doing anyway and if its not then you can sleep soundly in your bed at night safe in the knowledge that your 172 is one of the few that hasnt got a loose mounting on the passenger side !!

 

[VR6man]

and yes i rang a few renault garages about the noise and they all made very french "dont know what you are on about" noises and shrugged their shoulders

then again my local renault dealer was a rover dealer / garage until suddenly one day the signs got changed on the front of the building and hey presto they became renault experts !!

 

[visceral]

Cheers Guys,

First line of attack will be a visit to Renault Manchester, they still owe me a handbook (apparently they have had to order me one!!!!!). I will book in next week and let u know the outcome. I hope it is the mount, rather than a suspension issue.

ta for that telephone number Paddy, I might give them a ring ahead of my visit, so I sound all clued up and intelligunt.

ps - any one had any trouble with the alarm keyfobs? both mine seem to have a fault, I end up stood like a right prick pressing the buttons like mad trying to get in, the red led on the keyfob dont light up all the time.

 

[Jonathan]

I like to think that I give my 172 a fair bit of stick and get the most out of it. Ive never heard banging on mine and always thought of it as a problem as some people have reported.

However when I went out for a test drive in a Civic Type R I experienced axle tramp first hand like you wouldnt believe. The salesman was driving, he stopped dead in the road as it was empty behind us. The road was wet. He dialed up 7K+ of revs and dumped the clutch big time BANG BANG BANG...X10 (and we went no where) I thought the car was going to snap it two. As a demo of the car it was embarresing and awful but full marks for a demo of axle tramp.

I think its all down to how hard you launch. I know it was a different car but I can honestly say I would never launch my car like that. Also my fronts have lasted 16K, a lot of those miles just driving hard for the fun of it. I have read of some people getting 6k or less ! Obviously driving your car hard is all relative !

 

[visceral]

Jonathan,

My starts, which induced the afore mentioned noise, were not of the 7K variety.

My Car has currently done around 450miles - I drive it hardish (when warmed up) but carefully - I get these noises when performing progressively fast starts, not rev n dumps - The noise happens on the move, not sat in a cloud of smoke going nowhere.

I think there must be something wrong with a mount, if it were an inherent fault everyone would have heard about it.

 

[Jonathan]

Sorry! Reaing it again I can see how you took my post as a dig, no offence meant !

I wasnt trying to say you abuse your car that badly but just wondering if it can be explained by different peoples driving styles. The above was a worst case, literally non stop banging, no smoke as it was soaking wet.

Obviously your the best persion to judge the problem and I would definitely get it checked out ! Hope you get it sorted.

 

[visceral]

Jonathan - no offence taken at all m8 -

i just wanna get it sorted out, I welcome all opinions cos frankly I aint got a bleedin clue - but I am sure there are plently of people on here who have.

 

[KDF]

Okay then maybe my problem is different from everyone elses,

My car ONLY starts banging when the wheels start spinnin.. If for example I floor it in first on a dry day on the greenways (which is like that anti-skid stuff) it will go right up to 7K without making the noise, its is only when the wheels start to spin that I get the banging.

I never got a chance to check the engine mounts as the car was required for other taxiing duties.

 

[Horace]

I had the banging once in the wet. It was axle tramp. Hes my tuppence worth....

You accellerate hard in the wet, grip is an issue, the tyre may slip which causes the suspension components to go from a load bearing position to a non-load bearing position, i.e, rapid movement of components. If you dont get a banging noise at this time, then when you hit the DOHC power boost at 4K rpm (on the 172), the accelleration goes nuts, prompting a greater possibility of tyre slip. By this time the car will be moving forwards, so the axle tramp will occur at about 5 to 15 mph, dependant on slippage/revs. It sounds bloody terrible, so try not to be so keen in the wet.

 

[KDF]

thing is my wheels spin in the dry too, without dumping the clutch, once it hit the magic mark (4-5K)..

Its only really on a dry day on a anti-skid surface that I can get all/most of the power down.

My car has still got the standard contis on them, maybe change to f1s

 

[visceral]

its defo a wheelspin thing, I hope its the mounts because the cure is probably the cheapest.

I suppose the alternative is a different suspension setup - Loadsa Money!

What about Cups, are they not set up alittle differently? Do they have this problem, or is it just the lard arse 172s?