Engine ticking - new belt kits, cams & lifters

[Mase]

Hi all - I realise this type of thing has been discussed many times but thought mine slightly unusual.

My engine ticks on drivers side. Noise is clear ticking which is audible both from the top of the car and from underneath.

I just replace cams / lifters / all belts and associated pulleys in the kits. Engine still makes good power. No stalling, no flat spots etc.

The noise is not present when starting engine from cold. It get progressively louder as oil heats up and engine is to operating temp.

I have digital gauges (PLX) streaming live data from my RSTuner. One gauge set to display Average Knock level from the knock sensor is now displaying 100-130 on ave at idle which is set to about 1050. Normal is about 10-30 depending on various parameters. I get no substantial knock corrections even punting very hard.

When the cars revs pass approx 2200 the ave knock signal drops to normal levels and the noise ceases to present.

I am nearly 100% it is not an exhaust leak brought about by jacking engine up / down during belt change process.

I am thinking:

1. I have a dud lifter or two even though brand new...
2. My dephaser pulley chose this time to die just to freak me out.
3. The mechanic should have put the followers back in the order they came out.

Of note - the mechanic did not reinstall the cam followers in the same locations they were removed from as he said it did not matter. I turned the engine over with no injectors connected to prime up the new lifters.

I am in Australia so off to bed now so feel free anyone to post up your thoughts based on experience. I'll check in the morning.

Thanks for your help fellas

Mase

 

[Sargara]

If it gets louder as the oil gets warmer (thinner) then its the dephaser pully. Its a belt off job that you probably should have done while you just had the belts off. Its easily overlooked and short of destroying itself the increased noise is all that will happen.

 

[Mase]

Thanks for the post - How confident are you of this diagnosis It's the "no noise when oil cold' symptom isn't it?

Would removing then refitting the dephaser cause it to fail?

I have tested the dephaser solenoid with the RSTuner and it actuates fine.

As the belts have only just been tensioned (2 days) would you see it an issue to continue re-using them if I slacken them to replace the pulley in 10 days or so?

Cheers

 

[Sargara]

Well im not a mechanic im just going from experience as i have the same issue and this is what i was told by Fred@BTM who diagnosed mine. The problem sounds identical to yours because its fine for the first 10mins then its almost like a switch is flicked and the noise starts (once its warm). We tried a couple of things to avoid having to remove the belts such as doing an engine flush, running slightly thicker oil etc but none of them worked.

So i have chosen to live with it as i dont find it particular noisey, just sounds abit tappety on the top end when in low revs (<2k) but then gets silenced by the other engine noise.

 

[Mase]

Thanks Sargara - appreciated. Anyone else experience this issue / have any comments?

 

[sideways danny]

i'm confident it will be the pulley. the fact it's noisy staright after a belt change suggests it maybe wasn't slackened off from the cam and cleaned out thoroughly

 

[Mase]

Hi sideways danny - it was fully removed from the cam as we fitted new cams at the time. The mechanic just put it down on the bench and replaced it after the new cams were in. Not sure if this any relevance?

 

[Soot1e]

Could this be something as simple as the wrong oil being used, Hopefully you are using the correct grade, 5w 30 or 40 fully synthetic. Another possibility is nothing to do withe cams/lifters, could the carbon canister/valve ticking, the black box under the offside headlight but the valve is just pushed into the carbon canister and can be seen inside the engine bay, it has a 2 wire plug fitted on top.

 

[sideways danny]

Hi sideways danny - it was fully removed from the cam as we fitted new cams at the time. The mechanic just put it down on the bench and replaced it after the new cams were in. Not sure if this any relevance?

my prefered method is to leave the pulley in the part washer with a flow of de-greaser for as long as possible (normally ends up being 10-15 minutes) then rinse out with lots of brake cleaner. the inside of the pulley and the end of the cam (basically the parts that touch) have to be completely dry and oil free before re-assembly

if it wasn't washed out, IMO, that's why it's rattling now

 

[Mase]

Thanks guys - oil 5w-40 Elf synth. I will check the carbon canister but I do doubt it as the noise is way louder than the valve actuating. Will check tho thanks.

No it wasn't washed out danny...now just confirming the noise is a 'tick' and not a 'rattle'. Definate tick at about 2-3 ticks / sec on idle of ~ 1050

Thanks

 

[Mase]

Danny - if the cam dephaser wasn't positioned correctly on refitting could this cause an issue too? What is the correct position for this pulley - I understand there is a marking on it that positions it neither advanced or retarded?

 

[sideways danny]

there's no marking's on the pulley, they dont work in that way.

 

[Fastchip]

1. I have a dud lifter or two even though brand new...

Because you exchanged them all, and its a ticking sound instead of a rattly-ish sound.

 

[Mase]

It is a distinct metalic 'ticking' noise. I searched all day and found many F4R clios on Youtube vids. But as in most things youtubish the comment were inane so wasn't a great help. One vid sounded exactly like mine and was commented as being a dephaser but no posting as to the resolution. I have found numerous comments on a UK Renault site to ticking noises resolved via the dephaser. One guy even replaced the entire head before replacing the dephaser which finally resolved the issue.

I am 100% the mech didn't clean up the ends of the cams or the bores on the cam pulleys before reassembly. Very confusing.

This youtube sounds just like mine but a little worse than mine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkH_l469azE&feature=related

 

[Mase]

Made a simple video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPpo7meBP1s camera picks up all hi frequency sound very well.

When engine cold the noise doesn't exist. When hot sounds like this. I will make a 'engine cold' video tomorrow morning.

 

[barker22]

Made a simple video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPpo7meBP1s camera picks up all hi frequency sound very well.

When engine cold the noise doesn't exist. When hot sounds like this. I will make a 'engine cold' video tomorrow morning.

does the noise go away when you rev the engine past around 1500 - 1800 rpm. if so its even more likely that it is the dephaser

 

[Mase]

I'll double check the absence of the noise when the engine is rev'd above dephaser actuating rpm and get back.

Here is the engine from cold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1CKFOZNya0&feature=channel sounds pretty much as it has done for yrs although engine noise amplified by the cameras leaning towards high freq sound.

Here is engine when hot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPpo7meBP1s&feature=channel sounds pretty noisey!

Of note the average knock signal when starting from cold is normal at ~20. As the engine heats up it climbs to well over 100 at idle. When the car is driven and revs are up over 2000 the knock signal drops to normal levels around 60 indicating the noise has reduced.

I'll do some more testing on if the noise is not audible at higer revs.

 

[maupineda]

Jaime, so the knock correction is due to the noise the sensor picks up and the ECU reads as knock happening. For the look of the things I also say is the dephaser but you will able to confirm by checking if the noise goes when reving the engine but if it was a lifter it would sound all the time and from cold and hot IMO.

 

[Mase]

Here is another video: cold start showing the ave knock signal and sound from outside the car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya0Lh_ZtDjo

Here is another video 15 min later after driving about and then up a hill. Ave Knock is now pegging the gauge around 150 at idle. Noise outside the car greatly increased:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqsXt9IIRs4

The the above video I raised revs up to 2600 and the noise is clearly present right through. The Ave Knock signal drops however after about 2200 rpm. So I guess this rules out the dephaser???

Of note when driving I can clearly see that below 2200 rpm ave knock increases to 120-130ish on light throttle or overrun / above 2200 it drops quicky to abour 60-80 depening on if I am on throttle (light) or off thottle respectively.

Does this help anyone with their diagnosis?

Thanks everyone for your time and thoughts.

 

[Mase]

Hi Mauricio Listen to the last video above when engine hot. I run it through the revs to abour 2600 and the noise tends to follow.

I have just finished listening to the top of the engine through a small 25 mm dia pipe. It is definately noiser close to the dephaser. It is however very 'ticky' when I insert the pipe into the oil filler however this could just be transmitted noise allong the cam from either the dephaser / or along the inlet.

Me...I am guessing the ticking is due to one or two cam followers as the mechanic did not refit them in the locations they came from and thus if they were 'locally' worn as car has done 100 thou kilometers or 60 odd thou miles then one could expect noise. Still not 100% tho.

It sort of sounds like one from the exhaust cam followers is now on the front cam and vice versa so I have two noisey cam followers and associated hydraulic lifters.

Again anyone feel free to correct me please.

 

[Mase]

Der - just realised I have been using confusing terms

1. Been confusing cam follower with valve rocker
2. Hydraulic lifter with cam follower

Just looked at diagolys...going back to correct last few posts

Bummer - can't edit them.

OK - where I said lifter / hydraulic lifter I meant what Renault call a 'cam follower'
where I said cam follower I meant what Renault call a 'valve rocker'

So in short my mechanic did not refit the valve rockers in the same locations they came from and thus they are all over the shop now.

Should this be an issue?

 

[Fred@BTM]

no

 

[Mase]

Great that has cleared that up. Thanks Fred appreciated. Can you advise what you think from listening to videos referring to the fact that when cold the engine seems fine.

 

[Fred@BTM]

have you tried the italian tune up yet?

its sounds oil related therefore dephaser pulley, i disagree with Danny, no amount of flushing out a knackered pulley is going to fix it, once its making a noise thats that!

 

[Fred@BTM]

just watched the videos, i'd say dephaser on that one

 

[Mase]

Thanks Fred - seems I have 3 for the dephaser and 2 for knackered lifter or two. I'll run it for a week or so and see if it becomes clearer which it is. Might as well replace both liters and the dephaser to be sure.

Yep tried a Italian run or two. Also using a lifter freeing up fluid just hoping for a miracle.

Can has been maintained very well. Correct oils and change intervals.

 

[Fred@BTM]

its more common for dephasers to go, i have 12 knackerd ones in the workshop and that's only from the past 2 months LOL

 

[172Ben]

Defo dephaser, sounds the same as mine. Although im convinced i have a noise coming from the injectors and a leaking exhaust to manifold gasket as well.

 

[sideways danny]

as discussed in another thread (may have been in a members only area) never ever seen a lifter fail, and only ones i've heard of being diagnosed as failed have turned out to be the dephaser afterall. F4R Lifters DONT fail

 

[Mase]

Thanks fellas. Just strange that it was fine..did the cam fitting and the very next start it was noisey? BTW the cams are performance cams and have a little extra lift.

Is it normal when listening to the cam cover area through a pipe to hear slight tinking internally. I thought there was meant to be zero clearance between parts?

Cheers

 

[sideways danny]

oh, hang on a second......are they billet cams or are they re-grinds?

 

[mx1_champ]

out of interest howmuch is it for a new dephaser ?

 

[sideways danny]

around £140

 

[mx1_champ]

eeeekk s**t think i may need one also but the bloke didnt specify which pulley was making the noise

 

[Fred@BTM]

around £140

the price has gone up they're now £166.73inc vat

 

[Mase]

oh, hang on a second......are they billet cams or are they re-grinds?

They are billet cams

 

[Fred@BTM]

which ones?

 

[Mase]

Engine Dynamics Mk2 - I'm off to work now. Will check thread later.

 

[Mase]

Engine Dynamics Mk2 - I'm off to work now. Will check thread later.

Here's the spec's on the cams:

Inlet duration: 286
Exhaust duraton: 280
Inlet valve lift: 11.25mm
Exhaust valve lift: 10.85mm
Full lift inlet ATDC: 124
Full lift exhaust BTDC 110

Adding in materials info - "Our cams are constructed from a forged steel blank and hardened to 52 - 56 HRC, in respect to weight they are the same as C&B."

 

[Mase]

Danny / Fred - any comments? Thanks