EPAS on 172 Cup

[Chri5]

Very tempted to get this done to mine (I still have play in steering so I assume the rack is the problem, I've changed everything else!) Plus I like the idea of it being variable.

I assume with the engine out the rack is easy to remove from the engine bay? The engine will be coming out anyway to do the dephaser, belts and a few other jobs, amongst tidying the bay so it'd be a good time to do this

I'd better make a shopping list. Its crazy the difference in price of a new DCi rack compared to a 1*2 rack too!!

Cup_Phil, how are you finding the setup a few weeks down the line, any problems at all?

 

[Cup_Phil]

Absolutely fine.
Done a load of short runs to work in traffic, a 2hr session at cadwell, an hour at virtually top speed, loads of varied driving
I haven't noticed any numbness or anything negative at all, it's precise and lovely. I love being able to set the assistance to what you want for the conditions and it's much easier on track to feel where the tyres have broken away.

Still glad I did it regardless of the opinions/arguments it's dragged out lol

 

[GrahamS]

Here's my review then. Not too detailed as I'm on lunch.

All is well. There are 3 main settings I use mine on; full assistance, just over half a turn and about 1/8 from off.

Setting 1 - very good for parking or when you want a really chilled and light steering drive. It's not very suitable for speeds above 50 as it just becomes to light.

Setting 2 - This is the one I nearly always use (if you've bought the kitd it's in line with the knook on the dial which stops it rotating) Great setting for driving any any speeds below about 90, again it gets light above this. Most of my driving is on A roads and this feels around factory assistance at normal cruising speed.

Setting 3 - Only used for track. I don't turn it off completely as I feel it's just too heavy on some of the slow bends at brands. Being 1/8th from being off it's only very slightly assisted but enough.

Feel - There is no difference in feel as it's still a physical connection. The only difference is how light it feels. I was surprised at how much speed affects the weight of the steering. I am in no doubt that a completely manual rack with no assistance would be horrible.

Power - never been on a dyno but the car certainly revs a little free'r. Combine with my a/c delete and lightened flywheel there is a big difference over standard.

Maintenance - Having taken my belt off after 2k there are no signs of adverse wear and reliability has been good apart from a hiccup where a splice connector worked it's self loose (30 second fix). I do keep having a problem where there is a knock when I am dry steering but haven't had time to look into this properly. Also the boot does work loose sometimes which makes a dying horse noise (imaginary noise)

Strength - 2 x 20 minute sessions on track and no problems at all.

For me the main benefit of this is the sub £10 aux belt change I now have and the loss of the PAS gear in the engine bay. No possibility of leaks is very appealing and the extra room for oil cooler piping is worth having.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Agreed fully - I had a few hickups at cadwell were it went a bit "funny" on me - but I think that was loose wiring. Since it's all bedded in it's brilliant

I drive at 3/4 on the motorway, full when parking and turn it down to just below half on track. Loads better "feel" through the steering IMO and being able to take the aux belt off in 2 minutes flat and swap it for a brand new one for a tenner is epic.
I think it'll cut my cambelt costs in half too as there's virtually no labour to get to the belts

 

[BIGASH]

I keep praising this setup done 3 days worth of track work with mine now and really love it! As long as it stays reliable I couldn't imagine why anyone wouldn't do this to their track clio

 

[Shaunkealaher]

I have the 1.2 epas rack already on my car and i have put the 172 engine and loom in to it what wiring harness would i need to get the epas working with the clio sport loom ?

 

[NorthloopCup]

I have the 1.2 epas rack already on my car and i have put the 172 engine and loom in to it what wiring harness would i need to get the epas working with the clio sport loom ?

Put this number in eBay mate >180984984338

​thats what you need to get it working.

 

[_WILL_]

Is anyone else having random "lack of assistance" moments? I keep getting it. Never when driving only when parking low engine revs situations. I have a new ( recon ) cup alternator. I am wondering if it is not quite giving the system what it needs?

Phil - which bit of wiring do you think caused your issues at Cadwell? Before I go looking.

The think I am really liking about mine is the improvement to turn in the solid mounted rack seems to give. If I went back to PAS on my car or bought another 1*2 I would mount the rack solid or very close to straight away.

 

[GrahamS]

Phil - which bit of wiring do you think caused your issues at Cadwell? Before I go looking.

Hi Will - the problem I had was the 12v ignition wire I had spliced on wasn't getting a great connection. I had it once or twice. If you make sure that's a really good connection there should be no problems with it being intermittent. Also check the earth is tip top.

 

[Cup_Phil]

^^ Ditto.

Turned into a bend at cadwell and there was for maybe 1 second no assistance - scared the s**t out of me. But I took the 12v ignition wire and actually soldered it into one of the big wires off the back of the ignition barrel and seems fine now. Just check the power wires and make sure all the joints are really good and soldered

 

[_WILL_]

Hi Will - the problem I had was the 12v ignition wire I had spliced on wasn't getting a great connection. I had it once or twice. If you make sure that's a really good connection there should be no problems with it being intermittent. Also check the earth is tip top.

^^ Ditto.

Turned into a bend at cadwell and there was for maybe 1 second no assistance - scared the s**t out of me. But I took the 12v ignition wire and actually soldered it into one of the big wires off the back of the ignition barrel and seems fine now. Just check the power wires and make sure all the joints are really good and soldered

Thanks, I will have a look soon.

 

[Chri5]

Does anyone have a definitive answer as to whether any steering column ecu will work with my column? From the same model Clio obviously....the place where a bought it from on eBay said they'd supply it but it didn't come with it.

So I got on the phone trying to explain that the grey box under the dash IS the column ecu and I need it. But it wasn't in the car anymore So they will send another one...plus I know there is one in my local scrappy if it'll work.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I find it VERY hard to believe that the ecu is coded to the columns - VERY hard.

It has it's own power supply and relay, the only links to the column are for the angle sensors and torque sensors. With the ebay control box you're faking half the inputs anyway. And the output is just a big power feed to a motor.

It would make it very difficult to replace the motor/column if it had to be coded to the ecu.

 

[_WILL_]

I can't see why it would be. Just seems like a lot of extra hassle for renault?

 

[Chri5]

That's what I thought....and the end of the day its just a motor so I can't see how it can be coded to an Ecu. Like you say Phil, most of the signals are faked too. I'll try this other Ecu and report back when I get round to it

 

[Chip-mk1]

Motor wont be coded, or at least it isnt on other cars where I have replaced one, and unless it has a canbus connection (which im sure it doesnt) it cant be coded anyway, it wont be sending a code down a high ampage power wire.

 

[Kelv]

with mine ive only fitted a DCi rack direct to the subframe, fitted brand new Trophy steering arms and track rod ends.
no electronic steering module for assistance, just direct from the rack.

although it feels heavier at very slow speeds, its certainly not anything to struggle with just shuffling it in/out of the unit and on to the trailer.

even testing it around our lcoal few roads, good few twisty lanes and a few roundabouts, it felt perfect and no struggle to operate in the slightest.
im yet to use it on track but the time is due soon, so ill see how it feel in anger.
Geo is all set and ready to go, now just need the track time.

Chip, i know your view about being able to dial in oposite lock in a rush if needed, so ill see if i become caught out or how things fair.

so far, it feels the same as the old nova days, or atleast how i recall them being.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Kelv how many turns lock to lock is the DCi rack?


On my corsa I hated the standard loads of turns manual rack so replaced it with a less turns quicker rack and fitted EPAS to keep it driveable at low speeds.

 

[Kelv]

i shall have to check and report back on that one, i havent checked, but i would like to think it should be the same as Phil's as it was the same part number from the same place that my rack was ordered from.

 

[Cup_Phil]

If it's the same part number as mine then it's exactly the same as a cup/trophy

The 1.2 16v rack is much slower.
This was where I got stuck everyone said the DCi rack was slower and that's crap it's exactly the same turn-to-turn.

I'm suprised you found it ok. I fitted the DCi rack and left my cup column in - so effectively had no PAS. Pushing the car in and out of the garage it was virtually impossible to turn the steering wheel.

My favourite part of the EPAS is that it's on with ignition so you can wheel it around pits/garages without having the engine running and turn the wheel with one finger lol

 

[Kelv]

pushing it, i agree it is a bugger to move the steering and you do need to be sat in the car for better ease.
but any powered motion made it easy enough for me, and im far from a big muscular fellow, even the misses sat in it and drove it out and up on to the trailer and didnt say a word about it being too heavy even for her.

 

[Chip-mk1]

My favourite part of the EPAS is that it's on with ignition so you can wheel it around pits/garages without having the engine running and turn the wheel with one finger lol

Yeah I found that useful on my corsa as well when I fitted EPAS to it, if I didnt want to start the engine to move it, I could much more easily manouvre it from one garage over to the other etc

 

[Tony Hunter]

Same here, makes life soooo much easier.

 

[Chri5]

Finally got round to making a start on the EPAS conversion today. I've got the column fitted and all the wiring done

Not done the rack yet, but will do it this week. Driving with full assistance AND the hydraulic rack still plumbed in is a bit strange, the steering is ridiculously light lol. So I've got it turned off in the mean time

 

[Chri5]

Another thing I forgot to ask.....Will the old PAS rack come out without dropping the subframe? I'm sure I read somewhere, someone had done it this way. I understand it will be a PITA, but if bending and/or cutting the old pipes, will it physically fit through the gap?

 

[MG cup]

^^^ yes it will, you will have to get real choppy with the pipes/heat shields and it would be easier to drop the rear of the beam IME.

 

[Chri5]

Ok cool

Only reason I ask is I dont currently have a trolley jack, only the little scissor one and some stands but it doesnt really get high enough to get under the car properly to undo the rack bolts :/ I have some ramps but then obviously cant drop the frame.

Guess I could get on the ramps, undo rack, roll back down, get car on stands, drop frame, remove rack. Then do the same to put it back together

 

[Cup_Phil]

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/..._productId_899721_langId_-1_categoryId_255207

Or

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/..._productId_898893_langId_-1_categoryId_255207

You seriously don't want to be doing stuff like this without proper axel stands and a decent trolley jack..

You'll need to chop all the PAS pipes and undo the rack bolts which are difficult to get too, and then with the wheels off try to wiggle it out the side of the wheel arch

 

[_WILL_]

I agree with Phil. Get it up on Axle stands and its easy enough to do without dropping the frame. But you need it pretty high on the stands and to do that I would advise a trolley Jack. I also had it on 4 stands, 2 at the back to aid the access.

I have this Jack

​Its one of the best tools I ever bought.

 

[Chri5]

You'd think I'd have my own trolley jack but my one broke and after that I just used the one the ex had lol....haven't got round to getting another one yet but I will

I know how much of a pain the access is too, did the rack bushes not so long ago! Thanks for the advice regarding what space I've got to work with

Where is that jack from Will? Looks nice and low....and probably expensive

 

[_WILL_]

You'd think I'd have my own trolley jack but my one broke and after that I just used the one the ex had lol....haven't got round to getting another one yet but I will

I know how much of a pain the access is too, did the rack bushes not so long ago! Thanks for the advice regarding what space I've got to work with

Where is that jack from Will? Looks nice and low....and probably expensive

I got it from Cosco a few years ago. Think it was £70. Only real issue I have is its really heavy. But it will lift 3000kg apparently and it has a pretty long "reach" under the car.

It's great if it just lives at one location but I really dread having to take it anywhere or lift it. If I needed it to be portable I would go for something smaller Tbh.

 

[Chri5]

All done!!

Been doing the rack today Plenty of faffing about and a few choice words I'll admit

Just been for a quick shake-down and it feels SO much tighter than it was (its not just a placebo effect), and responsive, how it should be!! Obviously I havent the alignment done yet, so that should improve it.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Nice work! I honestly think this is one of the best mods I've ever done

 

[sonny172cup]

Think I need to get on this EPAS bandwagon

 

[Fred@BTM]

Sorry guys but after driving BIGASH's car with the EPAS i think you're all mad, its horrible! Leave the hydraulic PAS on (or do electrohyraulic ie Saxo PAS)

 

[Chip-mk1]

All done!!

Been doing the rack today Plenty of faffing about and a few choice words I'll admit

Just been for a quick shake-down and it feels SO much tighter than it was (its not just a placebo effect), and responsive, how it should be!! Obviously I havent the alignment done yet, so that should improve it.

I fail to see how electric or hydraulic makes a difference to how "tight" it feels?

 

[Cup_Phil]

Sorry guys but after driving BIGASH's car with the EPAS i think you're all mad, its horrible! Leave the hydraulic PAS on (or do electrohyraulic ie Saxo PAS)

What is it you don't like?

I found the hydraulic pas way too light on track. The epas turned down to about 1/4 feels epic.

 

[MicKPM]

That is one good thing about the eBay box as it allows an individual "feel" to be achieved but I've gone the Saxo route myself.

 

[Fred@BTM]

there's no feel, it doesn't load up the harder you push, its like plying the playstation

 

[_WILL_]

Sorry guys but after driving BIGASH's car with the EPAS i think you're all mad, its horrible! Leave the hydraulic PAS on (or do electrohyraulic ie Saxo PAS)

i would never have done it to mine if my PAS system had been working well, but it wasn't. I needed, at the very least, new rack and new pump, so then may as well do hoses. All in I couldn't afford all new stuff. However I did the ePas conversion, including and brand new rack for £120 ish. It was a no brainer for me.

i don't think it's terrible, maybe 70% of the hPas system. Mine isn't working right at the moment so at the moment it's about 40% of the good hPas!!!!!

I fail to see how electric or hydraulic makes a difference to how "tight" it feels?

For me it was a lot tighter, my rack was shagged!

what I think a lot of people like about it and what makes people think it is tighter, is the solid mounting of the dci rack. It's the best thing about it for me. If I went back to a hPas system and rack I would defiantly mount it solidly, it's great. Maybe try the updated bushes that are about at the moment and if they aren't enough story and fabricate something up.