EVO cooper s v's 197 test.

[Ian_182]

Just had my evo through the door with the gorgeous R8 audi on the front.
On page 119 they put the 197 against the new peugeot engined cooper S turbo with 172 bhp funilly enough

Both cars get good press but the clio gets a bit of the bad stuff due to it not being as fast as the old 182,and the chasis is not as exiting as the older model.It also looses out this way with the cooper which handles better and actually pulls away from the clio even though it has nearly 30bhp less.All down to boost and torque.
The mini is 172bhp and 192lb/ft
The clio is 197 and 159 lb/ft
Both cars cost an identical £15'995

The final qoute from evo sums it up and it seems they havent got there hands in each others pockets anymore
"These cars are far from perfect.Both have retreated a little from the purity and focus from there imediate predecessors.The pay off is more space,comfort and refinment.The tragedy, for renault, is thats its car appears to have lost far more in translation.Tragedy? Absolutely.Renault knows how to make a car that would take the cooper S to the cleaners and leave it on fast spin.It would have the word "cup" somwhere in its name.Like the bloke in the guinesss ad with the surfing horses,we wait.In the meantime,the grippier,gruntier and more entertaining cooper S deserves you attention.If only it didnt have to try so hard"

ian

 

[Peperami]

Gah i want my evo to come, its always later than everyone elses.

Im sure my postman hides it somewhere and reads it for a couple of days before delivering it to me.

 

[Munson]

The Clio is nearer to 190, probably weighs more (?) and has been designed to be slower than the Megane, so hardly surprising

 

[Ian_182]

Its 110kg more roy .1130 v's 1240kg's

ian

 

[bigpoppa81]

haha mine aint here either- i got a 'collectors edition' with the new lotus on the cover last month, did any others get this version who subscribe to it?

 

[Iain C]

Both cars cost an identical £15'995

And theres the rub
Tho i still couldnt be seen driving a mini..

 

[Peperami]

Yep yep, all the subscribers copies are collectors editions with different covers mate

 

[Munson]

So 152/ton vs. 156/ton (based on book bhp figures)

The Clio should be quicker or identical, but it's not, because its gearing sucks?

 

[Rich]

Does the Cooper still have 5 million option packs to add on top of that price?

 

[tameracingdriver]

it seems they havent got there hands in each others pockets anymore

Have you ever thought that maybe the 197 just isnt as good as its predecessor, rather than bribing going on? :S

 

[bigpoppa81]

i have a mini- its a chipped one giving out 140 bhp but its a killer on the petrol i cant believe how bad it is, i get 70 miles out of a tenner! i wanna trade back to a 172 clio like i had one before, the mini power only kicks in at 4k before that its like a tank, the cooper s is good but not worth the cost, and the fuel consumption is suppose to be worse than mine and thats a one! (im talking about old shape)

 

[Ian_182]

it seems they havent got there hands in each others pockets anymore

Have you ever thought that maybe the 197 just isnt as good as its predecessor, rather than bribing going on? :S

I totally agree but i remember previous goings on in evo where they compaired it to an M6 BMW on an A road so hence the sarcasm..

ian

 

[Ian_182]

So 152/ton vs. 156/ton (based on book bhp figures)

The Clio should be quicker or identical, but it's not, because its gearing sucks?

Also roy ,it has no turbo to pull it out of the bends. which is where the mini left the clio most convincingly apparently

ian

 

[Munson]

So 152/ton vs. 156/ton (based on book bhp figures)

The Clio should be quicker or identical, but it's not, because its gearing sucks?

Also roy ,it has no turbo to pull it out of the bends. which is where the mini left the clio most convincingly apparently

ian

That seems fair. The clio is quite heavy, so it could do with a lot more torque if it's going to keep up with a lighter, blown car out of corners and/or in-gear. Heavier cars need torque more than lighter ones, so a lighter car with more torque should smoke a heavier one with less.

I know I've been caught out in 2nd gear exits, off cam, by the old Cooper S. Although once 5k rpm arrives it's "BOOM headshot!"

 

[chris_m182]

i really shud subscribe to evo! i buy it every month anyway! how much is it to subscribe?

 

[Ian_182]

Its £21.30 for 6 months or £42.99 for the year,if you do it now you get a free AA route planner and 3 free issues.Plus when you subscribe you get a very glossy edition with special covers on the front

https://secure.widearea.co.uk/dennis/campaigns/4036/Opening.html

ian

 

[Fletcher]

i really shud subscribe to evo! i buy it every month anyway! how much is it to subscribe?

Me too.

 

[rich[182]]

It's the mid range torque and the low revs where peak torque is achieved thats gonna set the two apart, bhp is almost irrelevant imo, reckon in 3rd and 4th the 197 will get mullered, wont be long before someone remaps the new Cooper S to something like 230Ib/ft torque for less than £300 putting it into another performance league

Poor sales of the 197 say it all, people have got wise to the fact it aint all that in terms of performance

 

[John D]

f**k me you get your copy early! Or is it I that gets it late?! b*****d postman

 

[Rich]

f**k me you get your copy early! Or is it I that gets it late?! b*****d postman

Was thinking the same, it's only the 18th mine is never here till the end of the month.

 

[gazcaddy]

My missus has the 163bhp Old shape Cooper S and that feels very quick, in felt faster than the 197 I test drove anyway.

Did Evo do any performance test on the two cars? if so does anyone want to post 0-60, 0-100 etc

 

[John D]

Have you ever thought that maybe the 197 just isnt as good as its predecessor, rather than bribing going on? :S

I totally agree but i remember previous goings on in evo where they compaired it to an M6 BMW on an A road so hence the sarcasm..

ian

I think you missed the point of that article. IMO one of the best things about Evo is that they're not afraid to compare cars from different categories like that

 

[speedynz]

So 152/ton vs. 156/ton (based on book bhp figures)

The Clio should be quicker or identical, but it's not, because its gearing sucks?

The 197's gearing is already packed as tightly as Renault dared take it. It'll still hit 60mph in 2nd (for the all important single gearchange/time saving thing) but the rest of the gears are set very low and close to try and offset the torque deficit as much as possible.

The bottom line is that this car lacks grunt compared to the current crop of 'Superhatches' or indeed, to it's predecessors.

Renault should be applauded though for going the normally aspirated route as they understand that purity of power delivery counts for a lot. Unfortunately on this occasion the power/torque/weight/performance ratio hasn't quite worked out for them, and for that I'm very sorry.

I lament the day that all small hatches run forced induction motors that lack the bite and response of a good normally aspirated power plant.

 

[Munson]

I lament the day that all small hatches run forced induction motors that lack the bite and response of a good normally aspirated power plant.

The 197 doesn't have any bite. It feels gutless.

 

[tameracingdriver]

I agree speedynz, in theory, but the 197 is too heavy and refined and therefore feels very gutless. A naturally aspirated screameer really needs to be lightweight and agile feeling in order to really work, otherwise the refinement and lack of outright grunt will just make it feel boring.

Slightly OT, but i saw the new cooper S on 5th gear, does anyone else think it sounds a LOT better than the old Cooper S, much more growl to the engine now instead of that gay whine. I bet its still got a gay sounding whiney power steering though.

 

[Munson]

RE: The gearing...I still don't quite get it. With its 'low' top speed and short gearing, surely it should be able to match a CTR to 100? I guess, as you say, the bottom line is that it simply doesn't have the bottle.

 

[Munson]

I agree speedynz, in theory, but the 197 is too heavy and refined and therefore feels very gutless. A naturally aspirated screameer really needs to be lightweight and agile feeling in order to really work, otherwise the refinement and lack of outright grunt will just make it feel boring.

I have to agree with that. The 197 has reached a weight where it needs more torque. It's too heavy to get away relying on power/weight. Or it certainly feels it.

 

[tameracingdriver]

I think i've said it before (or maybe someone else said it), but i think perhaps it should have had a small turbo on it to help it at low revs, say below about 5,500 rpm where its naturally aspirated power takes over afterwards. Think that would have made it a better car.

 

[Munson]

^^yep, it needs a light pressure blower, Golf GTi stylee.

 

[Ally]

Didn't get my bloody subscriber copy either - I always seem to be a few days behind with getting mine delivered...

 

[speedynz]

RE: The gearing...I still don't quite get it. With its 'low' top speed and short gearing, surely it should be able to match a CTR to 100? I guess, as you say, the bottom line is that it simply doesn't have the bottle.

You're quite right Roy, the reality is that the figures don't add up. 194bhp in a hatch of this weight (1275kgs) vs the Civic typeR (1204kgs) shouldn't show the disparity that they do in terms of performance figures.

The Honda annhialates the 197 and it shouldn't be the case. Renault even claim more torque than Honda do (by a not insignificant 11lbft).

I detect a faint whiff of poetic licence with Renaults claims. How can you explain the disapointing figures otherwise.

As I said at the start, the figures just don't add up.

 

[Jeremy Townsend]

RE: The gearing...I still don't quite get it. With its 'low' top speed and short gearing, surely it should be able to match a CTR to 100? I guess, as you say, the bottom line is that it simply doesn't have the bottle.

You're quite right Roy, the reality is that the figures don't add up. 194bhp in a hatch of this weight (1275kgs) vs the Civic typeR (1204kgs) shouldn't show the disparity that they do in terms of performance figures.

The Honda annhialates the 197 and it shouldn't be the case. Renault even claim more torque than Honda do (by a not insignificant 11lbft).

I detect a faint whiff of poetic licence with Renaults claims. How can you explain the disapointing figures otherwise.

As I said at the start, the figures just don't add up.

The CTR is 200hp and 1204kg. The Clio is 197hp and 1240kg

 

[martynh]

Do you thihk we're going to be seeing more light pressure turbos on "sporty" petrol cars? It's probably the only why to match the "grunt" of sporty dervs?

 

[Jeremy Townsend]

My preference is normally aspirated but I can see why people like to turbo route as it's much more easily tuned

 

[tameracingdriver]

My preference is normally aspirated but I can see why people like to turbo route as it's much more easily tuned

Same here, although i am not that interested in tuning, and as i said, NA only really works well in a fairly light car, else it has to have a lot more power.

 

[jonathon555]

Having now owned a mk1 172 & a 182 with cup packs I was so much looking forward to ordering the 197. That was until i drove one, it felt pathetically slow compared to both my clios. The price is way too high for a start & the car is just gutless. I will now be looking to another manufacturer to provide my next hot hatch because the king is now dead ! The 197 Desperatley needs a turbo to bring it alive, its just too flabby to cut the mustard for me. My current 182 does a cracking job of chasing impreza wrx's about the 197 would be lucky to chase a 2.0 sport impreza. How have the Renault got it so wrong ? did they not test it against the 182 to see if it was a step in the right direction ? I can often see how well cars are selling by how many i see on transporters on motorways & how many are out on the road. So far i have only seen 1 197 on a car transporter & i have not seen any on the road.

Have Renault created a white Elephant? or is there a power upgrade to come that will resolve the problem?

Has anyone else changed their mind since test driving one ?

 

[edgerfs]

Have Renault created a white Elephant? or is there a power upgrade to come that will resolve the problem?

It needs to go on a diet!

 

[Neil G]

Sounds like a good issue

Renault should have just dropped a derivative of the Megane 225 engine in the new Clio

 

[jonathon555]

Sounds like a good issue

Renault should have just dropped a derivative of the Megane 225 engine in the new Clio

Should have done but didn't, their lack of ambition will come back to bite them !

 

[jonathon555]

Have Renault created a white Elephant? or is there a power upgrade to come that will resolve the problem?

It needs to go on a diet!

Maybe they could remove all the seats & chop the roof off. Because the basic spec is just the same as a 182 cup anyway. The car is a lard master .