group N cam timing

bloke · Jan 1, 2019

pretty much always left on.

neil a · Jan 3, 2019

Thanks Carl that's ideal

I will load up my old map for bodies and engine dynamics cams to get the car running then get it mapped from there.

Radugns · Jul 26, 2019

Hi bloke,
Are 197 injectors a must for this application? I have a new set of OE 172 injectors and want to try group N timing and mapping.
Thanks

bloke · Jul 26, 2019

Not really but seen standard injectors start to max out around 190bhp but this has been old injectors though.

1985michael182 · Jul 26, 2019

I have the meg225 injectors, are the 197's the better option?

Radugns · Jul 26, 2019

1985michael182 said:
I have the meg225 injectors, are the 197's the better option?

No

bloke · Jul 26, 2019

Better spray pattern on the 197 injectors and they don't need scaling back as much as the megane ones do.

Radugns · Jul 29, 2019

Will grp n timing affect the reliability? I want to try it on my Clio and if it will run fine keep it as a daily car.

bloke · Jul 29, 2019

no reason for it to.

New2RS · Jul 29, 2019

Would you expect upwards of 190 bhp from a group N timed standard engine?
Cheers

bloke · Jul 29, 2019

depends what it was running beforehand.

New2RS · Jul 29, 2019

Ok mate. 14yr old injectors in a low mileage engine, do I need 197 injectors to get the best from the timing/map.
Cheers

dann2707 · Jul 29, 2019

New2RS said:
Ok mate. 14yr old injectors in a low mileage engine, do I need 197 injectors to get the best from the timing/map.
Cheers

If you do get some injectors let me know as I can ultrasonically clean them to bring them up to scratch. Had some very good reviews thus far

neil a · Jul 31, 2019

My latest power run with group n timing and jenvey bodies , we ended up fitting larger injectors to be safe.

One issue I am having is poor running below 2000 rpm , no matter what fuel and timing the car hesitates . As soon as the car is over 2000 rpm it clears and pulls perfect , one theory is fuel drop out in the inlet due to low air speed. Ive ran this same set up on an old engine bar the cam timing and never had this issue, guessing with the timing change I may have valve overlap ??

bashracing · Jul 31, 2019

Whats the AFR below 2500rpm ?

neil a · Jul 31, 2019

I would need to ask the mapper but I know it would not change no matter what he did , as soon as it was over 2k it cleared we also tried it with the dephaser disconnected and at different switch points.
Not an issue on track just while moving about in the pits.

bashracing · Jul 31, 2019

I think you're bang on with the low port velocity, I'm having the same issue at the moment on the micra with some wild cams and a big port head

RSPez · Jul 31, 2019

neil a said:
My latest power run with group n timing and jenvey bodies , we ended up fitting larger injectors to be safe.

One issue I am having is poor running below 2000 rpm , no matter what fuel and timing the car hesitates . As soon as the car is over 2000 rpm it clears and pulls perfect , one theory is fuel drop out in the inlet due to low air speed. Ive ran this same set up on an old engine bar the cam timing and never had this issue, guessing with the timing change I may have valve overlap ??

View attachment 1428675

Im assuming this is wheel power,
How dose it feel to drive now? Any video’s of it on idle?

Pez

neil a · Jul 31, 2019

Yes power at the wheels

Feels good, with good pull through the rev range , different to drive as now on a seq gearbox.
I dont have any idle videos but it idles smooth at around 900 rpm.

bloke · Aug 1, 2019

What bodies you running?

neil a · Aug 2, 2019

Jenvey 48's

Had this same issue both on standard injectors and peco 480 injectos which have a narrower spray pattern.

In the past i have ran this set up of bodies,ecu,exhaust , on a standard engine , standard engine with ED cams , high comp engine with ED cams and we have never had this issue.

bozothenutter · Aug 2, 2019

neil a said:
Jenvey 48's

Had this same issue both on standard injectors and peco 480 injectos which have a narrower spray pattern.

In the past i have ran this set up of bodies,ecu,exhaust , on a standard engine , standard engine with ED cams , high comp engine with ED cams and we have never had this issue.

View attachment 1428777

where'd your gearbox mount go?

JamesBryan · Aug 2, 2019

bozothenutter said:
where'd your gearbox mount go?

On the subframe.

Sadev sequencial

Radugns · Aug 2, 2019

Bloke, since now you've done lots of group n engines and see dyno runs, whats your opinion on them compared to 197 cams? In terms of power and idle.
I am asking because I have a pair of 197 cams and I need to remove the rocker cap for reseal.
Cheers

bloke · Aug 2, 2019

Chuck the 197 cams in and set them to group n timing.

1985michael182 · Aug 2, 2019

bloke said:
Chuck the 197 cams in and set them to group n timing.

Can you do that? Same tool? As what we got from Northloop?

1985michael182 · Aug 2, 2019

I

neil a said:
Jenvey 48's

Had this same issue both on standard injectors and peco 480 injectos which have a narrower spray pattern.

In the past i have ran this set up of bodies,ecu,exhaust , on a standard engine , standard engine with ED cams , high comp engine with ED cams and we have never had this issue.

View attachment 1428777

Have same setup as you. Jenvey 48mm, group N timing, I'm on meg225 injectors, 182 manifold, gen90 ECU, with a super light flywheel and mine does not hesitate or murmer under 2k. Idles ok at 1000rpm under that it very lumpy and I got sick of people saying that doesnt sound very well, so I upped it.
I can't honestly see why yours would do it?

1985michael182 · Aug 2, 2019

Graph only starts at 2k but it pulled from idle lovely

1985michael182 · Aug 2, 2019

I think who you take it to really matters when mapping is concerned. EFI is the dogs b****cks for Renault, hands down and Chris is a very helpful guy who will explain anything you want you know.

Radugns · Aug 3, 2019

bloke said:
Chuck the 197 cams in and set them to group n timing.

For me is a little problem. I already have paid for a group n mapping at efi and for a 197 map also from efi. The 197 one is only inlet advanced. To pay another map is a little too much at this moment.

neil a · Aug 3, 2019

1985michael182 said:
I think who you take it to really matters when mapping is concerned. EFI is the dogs b****cks for Renault, hands down and Chris is a very helpful guy who will explain anything you want you know.

I fully agree with this but the guy that does my mapping has mapped the car 3 times in the past under different states of tune with no issues.
Its not really as issue as out on track never below 2000 rpm any way just in the pits it can be a bit jerky not helped by the gearbox.

1985michael182 · Aug 3, 2019

Gearbox is maybe what it is then?

bloke · Aug 3, 2019

neil a said:
Jenvey 48's

Had this same issue both on standard injectors and peco 480 injectos which have a narrower spray pattern.

In the past i have ran this set up of bodies,ecu,exhaust , on a standard engine , standard engine with ED cams , high comp engine with ED cams and we have never had this issue.

no real reason why it should be bad low down? no air leaks on the spindles? also what injectors you running?

1985michael182 said:
Can you do that? Same tool? As what we got from Northloop?

not sure exactly what mark's are done to but should be fine.

Radugns said:
For me is a little problem. I already have paid for a group n mapping at efi and for a 197 map also from efi. The 197 one is only inlet advanced. To pay another map is a little too much at this moment.

it's already been mapped?

Radugns · Aug 3, 2019

bloke said:
it's already been mapped?

Well, Chris gave me an map for group N to suit my modifications.
I bought an ecu from here that is supposed to be for 197 cams in 172 engine, 7 deg advanced.
The only thing I know for sure is that the map from Chris is genuine for group N on stock cams.
This is why I really did not know what to do, use 197 cams with inlet advanced or use the group N.
From dyno runs group N has a better torque.
But if 197 cams with group N timing works the best, I will buy another map.

Cheers

RSPez · Feb 16, 2020

Right guys. Question for you.
I can't afford to have Group N timing done when my belts are done so is it possible to have it done at a later date with out having to change the belts again?

Serious question I don't know the answer to so please be gentle with me 😳.

Thanks
Pez

Radugns · Feb 16, 2020

RSPez said:
Right guys. Question for you.
I can't afford to have Group N timing done when my belts are done so is it possible to have it done at a later date with out having to change the belts again?

Serious question I don't know the answer to so please be gentle with me 😳.

Thanks
Pez

You can, but it is not recommended. You have not to release the tensioner, just undo the pulleys bolts and re align them.

1985michael182 · Feb 16, 2020

I wont lie to you m8. It's just a case of putting in a different tool in to your cam end slots when you retime the engine.
Theres no tricks to it. The whole process of changing the belt,dephaser,water pump is exactly the same.
The extra cost comes from needing to get your engine mapped for the new timing.

1985michael182 · Feb 16, 2020

Just save some more cash and get it all done at once. Tip: if you are doing it get a 182 manifold and get your inlets ported matched and use the Jtec induction setup. You'll see over 190bhp and over 160lbs. Do it once do it right

1985michael182 · Feb 16, 2020

Ktec*

RSPez · Feb 16, 2020

1985michael182 said:
Just save some more cash and get it all done at once. Tip: if you are doing it get a 182 manifold and get your inlets ported matched and use the Jtec induction setup. You'll see over 190bhp and over 160lbs. Do it once do it right

Thanks.
Yeah I know about the inlets ect.
My car already has some kind of Fattys induction kit, exhaust and Remap by EFi.
Currently at 183 bhp and 163 Ib

IL just wait and collect all the bits I want

Thanks
Pez

group N cam timing

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