Handling - Willy Vs 16v

[Valver'o'Death]

Right just a quick question:-

How much better is the willy than the 16v round corners and in terms of general handling? Would you notice it alot between the two cars or is it just noticible?

Cheers

 

[cliosportcraig]

Youd deffinately notice it !! you gonna retro fit it ?

 

[Valver'o'Death]

Mmmm not sure what to do!

 

[BenS_172]

Quote: Originally posted by ValveroDeath on 17 February 2004


Right just a quick question:-

How much better is the willy than the 16v round corners and in terms of general handling? Would you notice it alot between the two cars or is it just noticible?

Cheers





Its noticeably better, (its those Renault 19 components that make the difference..)

 

[riplash]

Its so cheap to do, I dont see why more valver owners havent done it

 

[Glennclio16v]

What exactly would such a retro-fit entail then?? :s

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

If you want to do it properly, youll need the double skinned sub frames of the williams.

I reckon this little known difference probably has more to do with the handling due to them being much stiffer.

 

[riplash]

Quote: Originally posted by G16NNN on 17 February 2004

What exactly would such a retro-fit entail then?? :s

Hubs, driveshafts, wishbones/ball joints and shocks/springs - You can basically find a rear ended/breaking R19 16v and pinch bits off it, maybe buy the wishbones new as theyre so cheap anyway - also I believe Williams shocks are different from R19 even though theyre the same dimensions.



Im assured by more than one "respected" Renault mechanic that the double skinned subframe doesnt make much difference at all.

 

[Daz]

I knew the Williams had 19 16v suspension, but doe sthat mean the 19 16v handles better than a Valver? Or does its extra weight/size make a difference?

 

[aaronc]

ok the williams has a slightly larger track but if you put a decent of shocks and springs set up on the 16v properly, it will easily match the handling of the williams if not better round a track.

 

[king.stromba]

Quote: Originally posted by Daz on 17 February 2004


I knew the Williams had 19 16v suspension, but doe sthat mean the 19 16v handles better than a Valver? Or does its extra weight/size make a difference?

Its not that the R19 parts are very good, just that the Williams uses them very well and is very well set up. Trust me, ive just been driven in one of the best example of a Williams left, on some of the greatest roads in Britain, flat out, wheels up, by a trained racing driver. Yes i was scared. Not so much for personal safety, but more of the large rocks and grazing sheep and ponies at the side of the road comming into contact with the flimsy bodywork of the car. And i can assure you very very very few people are qualified to state how well the Williams handles as very very very few people are actually able to drive it anywhere near its full potential. I thought i could drive it fast until this day. Im not even getting 80% out of it. When its up to speed it will grip like any supercar (not my words, but those of the driver). Its just that it takes that little bit longer to get upto those faster speeds. However, on some roads that is not so much of a problem.

If i owned a Valver, id have Willy suspension over any other mod.

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

Surely the double skinned subframe would make quite a difference. In simple engineering terms it would be much, much stiffer for a kick off?

 

[_Tom]

You say youd get willy suspension but would uprated shocks and springs from K-tec or someone like that would be better than a willys. Should i just get them?

 

[riplash]

Not speaking from my own knowledge, just what Ive been told.. all I can suggest is approach Paul Mitchell/Nick Hill/Andy GDI etc and see what they.

Apparently the places in which it is reinforced arent obviously related to handling.. perhaps more to coping with the extra torque on takeoffs - though thats a total guess.

 

[Glennclio16v]

Well surely a valver on coilovers set up well would outhandle a standard willy on a track??

 

[king.stromba]

Renault spent alot of cash on the Williams (millions / hundreds of thousands?), not on the parts, but testing them. Thet did hundreds of hours of tyre evaluation, which is one reason i can never understand someone who fits anything but the Michelin Pilots to their Williams if handling is important to them. All the damping work was done with these tyres. They tested stability, damping, springs, everything. Im sure slapping on a couple of stiffer shocks from KTec will improve things, but in the end of the day Renault did a fantastic job on the setup of the Williams. Why not benefit from their hard work and expertese by copying them? Im also not a great beleiver in uprating suspension parts on a Williams. I mean, the Williams handles very well as standard. Alot of people who claim improved performance from uprated suspension parts dont have the ability to drive the car fast enough to assess in their is an improvement anyway. Even the standard brakes are quite adequate to stop even a mildly tuned car. Its only when the Williams lump starts to put out figures above 180 that uprated brakes are really needed. IMO.

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

Tyres is a different matter fella. Tyre technology has moved on quite significantly since the Willy was developed.

Im sure Renault wouldnt have settled on the Pilots if they were developing it now. Plus, Michelin are a French company, and Renault being state owned would tend to opt for French tyres I wouldve thought.

 

[king.stromba]

Quote: Originally posted by G16NNN on 17 February 2004

Well surely a valver on coilovers set up well would outhandle a standard willy on a track??

NO, IMO.

And i agree with Riplash, the double skinned subframe, i have been told, is more to do with other factors than rigidity on cornering. But i am not a mechanic so im only stating what ive been told by experts.

 

[king.stromba]

Quote: Originally posted by mike8579 on 17 February 2004


Tyres is a different matter fella. Tyre technology has moved on quite significantly since the Willy was developed.

Im sure Renault wouldnt have settled on the Pilots if they were developing it now. Plus, Michelin are a French company, and Renault being state owned would tend to opt for French tyres I wouldve thought.





Your quite right, Renault may opt for a different tyre if the Williams was developed now. However, it wasnt. If you change the tyre, you are changing one of the most fundamental aspects of the car. All the set-up work relied on the michelins. The stability of the car in corners and braking was controlled through suspension parts that was designed around those tyres. Changing the tyres would be like changing the springs to a diffent spring. A spring is a spring, does the same job, but you cant argue that it wouldnt effect the cars handling.

Most people who change tyres do it for the reason of cost. The fact is the Michelin Pilots are expensive. Other tyres maybe 1/2 the price.

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

So back to the question at hand then. What would one need for a willy setup. Presumably not the subframes?

 

[Glennclio16v]

Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004

Changing the tyres would be like changing the springs to a diffent spring. A spring is a spring, does the same job, but you cant argue that it wouldnt effect the cars handling.

Of course but i think what hes trying to say is that tyres now are better than tyres then so surely changing the tyres will affect the cars handling POSITIVELY??

Likewise for uprating other suspension parts??

After all as much work as Renault did on the handling of the willy - as with all their cars they were limited to constraints by the fact that it was a mass produced road car!!

Whereas an individual owner would be willing to lose some of the comfort of the ride in favour of better handling performance?

 

[BenR]

Theres alot of pride in this topic! lol

 

[_Tom]

So what could i do to make mine handle more like a willy but still keep it lowered?

 

[BenR]

to change to a willy, the minimum you need are 19 16V wishbones, drive shafts and willy shocks/springs. You dont need hubs, ball joints and rod ends and all that fallafel.

 

[_Tom]

Well i know someone braking a phs1 Ren 19 16v. Will that do or is it too old as mine is an m plate?

 

[BenR]

the parts are fine to use if condition is ok

 

[_Tom]

Ill have to go make some enquiries then! Any rough ideas of a price to fit wishbones and driveshaft? Sayint that the kiddie with the r19 is a mechanic too!

 

[king.stromba]

Quote: Originally posted by G16NNN on 17 February 2004

Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004

Changing the tyres would be like changing the springs to a diffent spring. A spring is a spring, does the same job, but you cant argue that it wouldnt effect the cars handling.

Of course but i think what hes trying to say is that tyres now are better

Remember we are talking about tyre SIZE not compound. A 185,55,15 is a 185,55,15 (assuming same manufacturer). But you could get it in different compounds. Im talking about size. For example the speed rating differes amongst tyres of the same size and manufacturer, with the result that one wears faster at higher speeds. If however both tyres are new, there would be little difference between the two in terms of grip.

than tyres then so surely changing the tyres will affect the cars handling POSITIVELY??

NO. Using a different size, even if a latest tyres will affect the cars handeling NEGATIVELY

Likewise for uprating other suspension parts??

NO. The Williams already has uprated suspension in that it has been setup to run this suspension. If you claim to be better than Renault Sport at Suspension geometry setup, feel free to have a go.

After all as much work as Renault did on the handling of the willy - as with all their cars they were limited to constraints by the fact that it was a mass produced road car!!

But was designed to primarily handle well. It wasnt a compromise car as much as something like a 172.

Whereas an individual owner would be willing to lose some of the comfort of the ride in favour of better handling performance?

If you feel you can improve the Williams please feel free to try. If you do you will probably just end up destroying that Williams feel, which is in essence why it got its reputation. Read the latest Renault brochure on the 182, V6 and Cup. There is a small section on the Williams - Quote unflappable poise on cornering Best Hot Hatch Ever. And thats in a brochure trying to sell the latest cars.

 

[phil6180]

But coilovers would not be a better idea to improve handling?

 

[word_easy]

Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004

Quote: Originally posted by G16NNN on 17 February 2004

Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004

Changing the tyres would be like changing the springs to a diffent spring. A spring is a spring, does the same job, but you cant argue that it wouldnt effect the cars handling.

Of course but i think what hes trying to say is that tyres now are better

Remember we are talking about tyre SIZE not compound. A 185,55,15 is a 185,55,15 (assuming same manufacturer). But you could get it in different compounds. Im talking about size. For example the speed rating differes amongst tyres of the same size and manufacturer, with the result that one wears faster at higher speeds. If however both tyres are new, there would be little difference between the two in terms of grip.

than tyres then so surely changing the tyres will affect the cars handling POSITIVELY??

NO. Using a different size, even if a latest tyres will affect the cars handeling NEGATIVELY

Likewise for uprating other suspension parts??

NO. The Williams already has uprated suspension in that it has been setup to run this suspension. If you claim to be better than Renault Sport at Suspension geometry setup, feel free to have a go.

After all as much work as Renault did on the handling of the willy - as with all their cars they were limited to constraints by the fact that it was a mass produced road car!!

But was designed to primarily handle well. It wasnt a compromise car as much as something like a 172.

Whereas an individual owner would be willing to lose some of the comfort of the ride in favour of better handling performance?

If you feel you can improve the Williams please feel free to try. If you do you will probably just end up destroying that Williams feel, which is in essence why it got its reputation. Read the latest Renault brochure on the 182, V6 and Cup. There is a small section on the Williams - Quote unflappable poise on cornering Best Hot Hatch Ever. And thats in a brochure trying to sell the latest cars.

Why assume that newer more technically advanced tyres will have negative affects on a cars handling?

I would much prefer to have some state of the art tyres over some that were designed over 10 years ago, regardless of whether or not a car was tested on them!

 

[king.stromba]

Quote: Originally posted by word_easy on 17 February 2004

Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004

Quote: Originally posted by G16NNN on 17 February 2004

Quote: Originally posted by king.stromba on 17 February 2004

Changing the tyres would be like changing the springs to a diffent spring. A spring is a spring, does the same job, but you cant argue that it wouldnt effect the cars handling.

Of course but i think what hes trying to say is that tyres now are better

Remember we are talking about tyre SIZE not compound. A 185,55,15 is a 185,55,15 (assuming same manufacturer). But you could get it in different compounds. Im talking about size. For example the speed rating differes amongst tyres of the same size and manufacturer, with the result that one wears faster at higher speeds. If however both tyres are new, there would be little difference between the two in terms of grip.

than tyres then so surely changing the tyres will affect the cars handling POSITIVELY??

NO. Using a different size, even if a latest tyres will affect the cars handeling NEGATIVELY

Likewise for uprating other suspension parts??

NO. The Williams already has uprated suspension in that it has been setup to run this suspension. If you claim to be better than Renault Sport at Suspension geometry setup, feel free to have a go.

After all as much work as Renault did on the handling of the willy - as with all their cars they were limited to constraints by the fact that it was a mass produced road car!!

But was designed to primarily handle well. It wasnt a compromise car as much as something like a 172.

Whereas an individual owner would be willing to lose some of the comfort of the ride in favour of better handling performance?

If you feel you can improve the Williams please feel free to try. If you do you will probably just end up destroying that Williams feel, which is in essence why it got its reputation. Read the latest Renault brochure on the 182, V6 and Cup. There is a small section on the Williams - Quote unflappable poise on cornering Best Hot Hatch Ever. And thats in a brochure trying to sell the latest cars.

Why assume that newer more technically advanced tyres will have negative affects on a cars handling?

IM NOT TALKING ABOUT COMPOUND, IM TALKING ABOUT SIZE AND MANUFACTURER. Is that clear enough for you? A standard size Michelin Pilot will always work better than a different tyre on a Williams

I would much prefer to have some state of the art tyres over some that were designed over 10 years ago, regardless of whether or not a car was tested on them!

Well enjoy your trip into the scenary then, when your state of the art tyres fail to grip the road correctly and transplant you into the nearest tree.

 

[Paul Clio 16v]

Wished id have known all this a couple of months ago. I would have probably converted mine while i was swapping the engine. I didnt even occur to me that all this was possible.

 

[jimbo1]

the williams uses a different steering rack than the 16v. most likely longer track rods. u could jsut wind out the current track rods ends on the shaft out the extra mm for the proper track.

the 19 16v, williams, clio 16v hubs r the same, so itl require new wishbones, driveshafts, and shocks.

jimbo

 

[riplash]

When I had my hubs replaced on my Williams I was told they are the same as 19 16v, but not the Clio 16v.. this was by BB Performance Tuning.

 

[Daz]

Erm, think they are the same.. 16v/Williams anyway.

 

[jimbo1]

hmmmm thats weird. clio 16v cud use smaller bearings i guess

jimbo

 

[woots]

I had king strombas view that standard was best. But recently a mate bought a willy after a ride in mine. And parked up together mine was lower. So despite all my mickey taking of my boy racer friends I was actually running a modded car despite what I thought/the lad told me when he sold it. I still rate my suspension as spot on for b road grip so dont think Ill change, its down to what you want there is no spot on set up for every occasion. Tyres wise I have recently swapped 195/50 eagle f1s for 185/50 pilots and while the overall level of grip is noticably lower in the dry and excessively so in the wet the car is more fun and adjustable on the throttle.

19 16v wishbones are £30 each from andyspares and come with ball joints and bushes. The new bushes will probs do more for handling than the subframe but if you really care I got a willy subframe off infinicar for £115. Track rod ends are the same as a normal clio you need a willy rack which is $.

Personally I reckon I drive pretty quick (hence having to buy the new subframe) but am by no means a racer and am not sure Id be able to tell the difference between a valver with decent shocks and a tired old williams.

 

[aaronc]

williams/16v suspension were designed for Mr Average when they came out of the factory.

If you want better performance whack a set of decent shocks/dampers/springs, and your willy/16v suspension will handle even better.

 

[007]

The handling and ajustability are perfect on the Williams - I wouldnt touch the suspension with a barge pole.

Maybe If you can make it go quicker round a track you will certainly loose speed on the bumpy b-roads. If its that easy to make cars better they would be coming out of the factorys with better handling these days.

IMO for all the hassle and cost of trying to change a 16v to a Williams - you are aswell buying a Williams.

The 16v handles well enough anyway!

 

[king.stromba]

I dont doubt it is possible to improve the Williams handling. However, it would take a test team and race engineers to scientifically measure improvements and feedback data from a professional race driver. Slapping on some decent shocks/dampers/springs would undo all Renaults hard work. Many people assume that because a car feels stiffer at low speeds it is a better handling car. However, the sad truth is that these same people do not have the ability to drive the car at 100%, the mark at which handling problems show up. Lowering your Williams may allow you to win the mini roundabout grand prix against the other towny racers, but it doesnt do much on the corners the Williams was designed for.