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Handling - Willy Vs 16v
- Thread starter Valver'o'Death
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- 16v
m8, u obviously do not have a clue......
no one is saying that tyres from this year are less superior than a tyre from 10 years ago.....wot is being stated (and u do not need evidence or scientific proof 4 this, just the ability 2 think logically), is that renault designed/tested/developed the williams suspension using these tyres. therefore for best results, these tyres should be used.
it doesnt mean 2 say the car will handle sh*te with anything else, just not as good. small the difference maybe, but it is still their.
The Jinx
I think they used the who paid the most method. Not coincidental that all 3 french manufacturers have used Michelins consistently for years, until very recently?
You dont know itll handle the best with the Pilots. One of the new ones may actually work even better with the Willy. Thats the point.
And this coming from the guy that thinks its ok to weld the column? Why didnt the faultless Renault engineers do that in the first place then if they got evrything so right?
Focus ST
Possible, but unlikely! I also didnt say that "not as renault intended" = "horrible", its just a lot of development time does go into this sort of thing. Like someone (maybe you) mentioned earlier in the thread, tyre choice is often a compromise between ride comfort, grip, handling etc. so its all down to personal preferance. I doubt Renault would form alliances with a particular tyre company if they thought thier car would handle terribly on them, and I dont see too many people complaining about the standard Cups handling.
Focus ST
Im not one of "you guys" as Ive only just decided to contribute to this debate!
I personally am not saying that as Renault intended = best results, (youd have to define what the best result was). All Im saying is that as Renault intended = very good in the case of the Williams.
Im sure it is possible to improve some aspects of the Williams ride/handling/grip using different tyres, coilovers etc. but it will be at the cost of some other aspect of the vehicles dynamics. As an all round package, you will really struggle to improve upon it with "slap-on" modifications (including tyres)
no, but they complain about the tyres ALOT.
Stan, why are renaults best.........simply because?
Better tell half the motorsport community this, as they try very hard to improve.
And i respect, understand what goes into developing a car, you really dont need to tell me any of that, i agree. Development programs of platforms go on for intensive months, all round the world and for millions of miles. BUT, again, its always a compramise. Even real super cars are compramises.
heres an example 4 the people who simply do not get it.........
would ur petrol engined car run on diesel??
no! why??......cos it was designed 2 run on petrol.
the way i see it, there is no argument here. there is a fact; some people that see it/understand it; and the majority that dont. NO ARGUMENT....A FACT
Replacing petrol with diesel is a bit stupid as no good for car, would it even run???
Replacing tyres is not. Would you not use optimax in your williams becaus eit was not available when it came out, hence not designed to run on it, course you wouldnt. Same with tyres. If the Eagle F1s, Bridgestone S02s etc were around 10 years ago what would Renault have used. Still the Michelin probably as manufacturers tend to stick to home country suppliers.
I understand where people say the Williams was designed with teh Michelins, but you cannot say that things will be better (or worse) with newer tyres until tried. And you cant ask someone who designed or had input into teh Williams in development about this because they did not have crystal balls and know what future tyres would be like.
Bottom line is.... try newer tyres and see for yourself. If you prefer the newer ones (or old) that is your choice and is what is best for the car in your eyes not some expert who does not drive like you do.
Get Jenson Button, Damon Hill, Colin McRae or someone like that into the car and let them impartially rate. Would rate their opinion higher on car set up as they are always trying to change things. Sure you may have to alter some things in combination with the change of tyres to get everything working to get the best out of each other, but you cannot say things cannot be bettered, otherwise there would never be any advancement and we would all be driving around in the same car.
C
chip16v
i have read nearly everyone of these posts and i have to agree on with ben r on most of them. the williams clio is a compromise just like any other road going car. how good a car handles depends on where you drive it and how you drive it. You dont see rally cars using the same tyres and suspension setup for diffrent stage condtions.
Also to the people who are attacking other forum users because they think they know it all on this particulur subject, try and remember you wasnt always so clued up and people didnt try and bewittle you then so dont do it now.
http://forum.cliosport.net/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=6&TopicID=54798&SearchPagePosition=5&search=king%2Estromba&searchMode=allwords&searchIn=Author&forum=6&searchSort=dateDESC&ReturnPage=Searchhttp://forum.cliosport.net/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=6&TopicID=54798&SearchPagePosition=5&search=king%2Estromba&searchMode=allwords&searchIn=Author&forum=6&searchSort=dateDESC&ReturnPage=Search
Focus ST
Exactly, so it would really take some degree of testing (as was carried out on the Michelins) before you really know whether youve got a system that works better/well together or not.
And "better or worse" still has to be defined, as it will be down to personal opinion, and what you actually want out of your car.
There is no doubt that you could make a Williams go faster around a track by changing the suspension/tyres, but:
1. It wont handle "like a Williams" anymore - not particularly an issue to me, but is Im sure to some die-hard Williams fanatics.
2. It will be at the expense of another aspect of the Vehicles dynamics. One of the real compromises when designing a car is between ride and handling, so making your Williams handle like a go-kart will almost certainly make it uncomfortable for road use (for which it is intended).
So, like I said, you will really struggle to improve on the complete package that makes it the superb, B-road blaster that it is. (Oh, I meant to say IMHO
)lol its only a tarted up clio! Anyway I asked for Eagle F1s in 185/55R15 but they wouldnt seal, too narrow.
stan* I take it youre doing mech eng or similar and intend to sack engineering off and move into finance or you wont be earning the mega bucks you say a clipboard will get you. No point sl*gging off grease monkeys as thats what everyone thinks a mechanical engineer is degree/chartership or not.
I often wonder why I paid an extra 3k surcharge over a valver for gold wheels, now I know so I can sprout rubbish on forums. I agree with Ben R though about tailoring to individuals taste rather than to a professionals, Im the one who drives the car not Phil Bennett/that short bloke from evo who had the aston for a bit etc.
Its the San Marino test session in February. Its very wet. The top 10 times of the day have been set on Michelins. Ferrari is down in 11th and 12th place, the first two cars on Bridgestones. Michelin is clearly the tyre to have. The bridgstones are not working in the wet, and the Bridgestone shod cars are proping up the back of the grid. They have an inferior tyre for these conditions. Ferrari work on setup all day and by the end of the day they get their cars to perform 6th and 7th fastest times. All the other places in the top ten are still Michelin shod cars. At the end of day two, its still raining the same, no difference in track conditions, Ferrari work extra hard on setup and they get their cars to 5th and 6th fastest times. All the other top 10 are still Michelin shod cars.
Now at the start of day 3, its still raining, exactly the same conditions, Michelin offer ferrari a couple of sets of Michelins, exactly the same tyre used by the other top ten cars to such good effect.
THE QUESTION IS - IF THE FERRARIS BOLT ON THESE TYRES WITHOUT CHANGING SETUP WILL THEY GO FASTER OR SLOWER
IMO they will drop way back down the grid again, probably all the way back to the back DESPITE HAVING THE BEST TYRE FOR THE CONDITIONS. The reason being that the Ferrari is set up to run BRIDGESTONES. The setup is so intrinsically linked to tyres in formula one that a car cannot swap tyres without completely revising setup. EVEN IF THOSE TYRES ARE BETTER
Formula one teams often take a whole season to get used to a new tyre manufacturer. Williams had a huge advantage over McLaren when McLaren switched to Michelins, as Williams already had a whole seasons experience with them
Now with the Clio Williams, i am not arguing that set up is AS CRITICAL as in formula one. But the same principle applies.
TO SWAP TYRES EFFECTIVELY YOU HAVE TO TEST NEW TYRES AND EVALUATE THEN NEXT TO THE ORIGINAL TYRE. Snapping on a new set and thinking its an improvement is subjective and IMO stupid, if your goal is to maintain the original handling characteristsics. These original characteristics are what makes a Williams a Williams, and what makes a Williams as fast as it is on country roads.
And to argue that road cars are a compromise and therefore improvable is a mute point. Formula one cars are compromises. All cars are compromises. As are planes, warships, space shuttles, and every other thing ever created. Even the human body is a massive compromise. Because something is a compromise doesnt mean it is easily improved. Try improving the human body. You cant, i cant, nobody can. Sometimes a compromise is unimprovable for the reason that it is THE BEST COMPROMISE of all the choices.
Im probably one of the only people who have ever met BOTH BenR and King Stromba.
I think its best to treat this thread with a pinch of salt and remember that if it were in a pub, both the beer and the laughs would be flowing by now - both great minds of Cliosport understanding that they come from very different backgrounds.
I, for one, like my Williams standard. But thats coincidence as much as anything else. Im now a purist, but thats because I modified my Valver (tastefully) and found it wasnt worth the dosh. Im in a job now where (whether its right or not) people judge me by my car as much as anything else. The big alloys and big bore exhaust days are over!
Yeah, the Michelin Pilot HXs that are fitted to my Willy may be the best - but where the hell can I get them these days???!! I need four new tyres pronto!!!
Quote: Originally posted by word_easy on 18 February 2004
LOL OH MY GOD!!! You cant seriously be trying to compare the design and set up of a F1 car to a 1993 Renault Clio!! Ferrari probably spent more money designing a wheel nut than what Renault spent on converting the Clio 16v into a Williams!
Didnt i just say i wasnt comparing the two in the post you just replied to? Did you read it? I said:
Now with the Clio Williams, i am not arguing that set up is AS CRITICAL as in formula one. But the same principle applies.
Its called an analogy. Get a dictionary and look it up.
Some men you just cant reach. No matter how slowly you talk.
LMAO at this thread !! How pathetic to fight over something so stupid !! Does it really affect your life that much that you have to argue ?
Im still waiting for someone to come up with some data that shows an alternative tyre / suspension set up is an improvement. I havent seen any in 5 pages of posts because there isnt any.
motorsport engineering Beng brings plenty of opportunity for cash if u get in2 say F1. not sayin thats wot I want 2 do, but the opportunity is there.....
oh and dont come back with "F1 is sooo hard 2 get in2", or "u and thousands of others", or wotever, cos at the end of the day..........sum1s gotta do it, and a number of previous students from my course, at my uni currently work 4 top F1 teams
King, if you could even tell me the basic differences and design principals between michelin and Bridgestone F1 tyres id be well impressed.
As for your need to come up with imperical data for alterntive setups, riiiiiiiight. Provide some data for the std setup. And what do you want, comparative lap times? BUt as you said handling isnt about pure speed, so how do you translate a feeling into data.
Stan, not stabbing, but motorsport engineering is far too generalised to get you into F1. Besides getting a high first youll of needed to drop into one area to concentrate on, and we all know that most sogught after are aerodynamicists......and they dont take motorsport eng.
And the Formula SAE......half those kids havent got a half baked idea what they are doing. The ones that make it through are ones that have a natural feel for their area. Sadly everybody is planning to get into F1 from these sorts of degrees.
This thread is pretty much dead..........
2. Those that do claim better handling, never really explain what they mean by that. Maybe these people could explain where the Williams is so bad that they want to improve it? Personally i cant see it. If i was going to improve the car i would use parts developed for the rally versions or cup racing versions of the car. Anything else i would consider inferior
king do u not read my posts??????????
some men u just cant reach no matter how slowly u speak
hehe
and i do believe that AVO shocks were used in the motorsport side of things at reno on the clios, as far as i know de-carbon were a sister co. of AVO anyway,
ok time to do my considerations. having 2 williams, a delta integrale and several years of yearly 80k plus km driving on mountain roads in any conditions and with no cops around, i feel i can say one thing or two
1) the willy is a amazingly fast car. very few people will be able to exploit the full potential on open roads. for you brit people , the famous B roads are nothing expecial. try some french or italian mountain roads where a mistake is either a rock wall, the cliff or both. said this, "handling improvement" loses a lot of meaning where most of drivers cant exploit even the stock trim handling. i surely cannot use the williams to its full potential.
2) michelin pilot is a top tire. the fact that it is old means little in the world of commercial tires. the S02 was much much better than the S03. still it was superseded.
3) the williams is a "homologation special", it was not a mass produced car. some choices, like no abs, no aibag, no aircon etc tells how much renault cared for the everyday user. it was designed to win races and renault invested a lot of money in it. dont forget homologation specials had to be produced in thousands of units, so it was to a certain extent a mass produced car, but it had to be VERY good to start with to win races. there were no group B or WRC at the time.
the williams is a top car out of the box. perhaps handling can be improved but im surely not the right person to judge that, and i suspect it would cost a lot. i have the integrale experience. lots of grale owners lower it and stiffens it and fits koni, coilovers, etc. still many pro drivers claim that the BEST setup for road use is the standard one. of course racing on a circuit with a rollcage welded in is a entirely different matter.
4) i have never seen a car that changes completely behaviour just changing tire, or tire pressure, like the williams. a wrong tire can make the williams a total dog to drive, with massive over or understeering. it is VERY and i repeat VERY sensitive to tire choice. so maybe king has a point here. remember, pilots are top tires, and if it is true that the car was set up around the tire (which from a racing point of view makes a lot of sense) it surely makes a lot of sense to fit the right tires.
5) i am to a certain extent a fan of the "standard is better". i work in big projects, and i can appreciate how good can be team work by a group of skilled professional engineers and how good can be the product of such work. can we really claim to be better than renault engineers? i doubt it very much. designing a vehicle is a lot of work and every component takes a lot of work and testing to integrate it with the rest of the components. improving the design of a large team of engineers is tough to say the least. i have no such goals. id rather learn how to drive properly that try experiments with the suspensions of my car.
6) to all the guys who fitted aftermarket suspension (or other) components and claimed an improvement. dont forget you installed NEW aftermarket components in place of most likely WORN standard components. are you really sure that fitting original components wouldnt have been even a bigger improvement?
gm
A sensible informed intelligent reply at last.
Its gone very quiet in here
yes mate i see wot ur saying.............but
when reno introduced the williams the testing crew gave their verdicts on how it handled etc, and it was, i take it, an average set up for all its test drivers, some may have wanted it a bit stiffer etc but we werent there an i dont know anyone who was so i cant say for sure
wot i can say tho is that on the old original set up it leaned quite a lot in the corners,which always un-nerves me i dont know bout anyone else, so the logical thing to do (after one of the springs broke) was to upgrade slightly to a more adjustable setup, seeing as tho i like to have more than 1 setup cos i use it for more than 1 thing,while doin this it also got rid of a lot of the lean thru the corners and felt safer at higher speeds........u know the kinda corners, the 1s you know how fast u can take while still being in control,and my favourite corner is taken a good 5-10 mph faster now than standard.i admit it has made it a little more unsettled on the really bumpy roads, but i tend not to drive a lot of them.
when i had both of my williams it was always the least standard car i drove, why? cos i prefer how it drives/handles, it suits me more than standard set up............all imo
i think to really prove 1 way or the other u need to experiment ........which is what ive done and i have benefitted from it. but again this is all down to my personal preferance.........i dunno maybe its jus me gettin more used to it or wot, but when iv found the limits a few times i want to upgrade and test again for the limits.which is why iv also altered the fantastic engine...........simply because it felt slow..................which as most ppl on this forum know, it aint slow, but felt it to me cos im used to it
surely a williams can be marginally improved for road use, at a cost, in terms of money and usability. on another note, body roll doesnt mean the car grips less. body roll can worsen the turn in, but can ultimately lead to overall better performances. remember, you will lose a lot of time when the car get unsettled by that pothole.
Quote: Originally posted by 2 live on 19 February 2004
yes mate i see wot ur saying.............but when reno introduced the williams the testing crew gave their verdicts on how it handled etc, and it was, i take it, an average set up for all its test drivers, some may have wanted it a bit stiffer etc but we werent there an i dont know anyone who was so i cant say for surewot i can say tho is that on the old original set up it leaned quite a lot in the corners,which always un-nerves me i dont know bout anyone else, so the logical thing to do (after one of the springs broke) was to upgrade slightly to a more adjustable setup, seeing as tho i like to have more than 1 setup cos i use it for more than 1 thing,while doin this it also got rid of a lot of the lean thru the corners and felt safer at higher speeds........u know the kinda corners, the 1s you know how fast u can take while still being in control,and my favourite corner is taken a good 5-10 mph faster now than standard.i admit it has made it a little more unsettled on the really bumpy roads, but i tend not to drive a lot of them.when i had both of my williams it was always the least standard car i drove, why? cos i prefer how it drives/handles, it suits me more than standard set up............all imoi think to really prove 1 way or the other u need to experiment ........which is what ive done and i have benefitted from it. but again this is all down to my personal preferance.........i dunno maybe its jus me gettin more used to it or wot, but when iv found the limits a few times i want to upgrade and test again for the limits.which is why iv also altered the fantastic engine...........simply because it felt slow..................which as most ppl on this forum know, it aint slow, but felt it to me cos im used to it
You can earn okay money there so fair dues good luck with it. Its a bit 24/7 for me dont fancy leaving work at 10pm on a friday then getting called back at 12 (plus Im not clever enough). Try and get some FEA experience as thats a pretty steady way in.
King I am glad you gave evo a near as poss to original williams to test so we get a fair review of it. I reckon it is possible for the pilots to be the best tyres for it but surely you have to accept that it might be better for some people with different tyres. For example the security of eagle f1s in the wet might be what people want? Better is a hard word to define.
http://www.imoc.co.uk/technical/article/autocar.htmhttp://www.imoc.co.uk/technical/article/autocar.htm
Is this article about the same michelin tyre, if so they state that it feels best on a subaru. I personally dont care if its the best on the Williams, that is for each owner to decide themselves. And just because Autocar say this about the tyre doesnt mean anything. Generally persons have a vested interest, magazines with advertisers etc or just very opinionated persons.
For example Jeremy Clarkson thinks he is god !!!!
Ben - Not sure if this answers your Q but found this using google:
http://www.tyreworlduk.sageweb.co.uk/catalogue/pg8.htmhttp://www.tyreworlduk.sageweb.co.uk/catalogue/pg8.htm
Not sure if your tyre is on here. Just search the net and hopefully you will find. Alternatively speak to Michelin, they might be able to help if you phone or email them.
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