Icemans Britcar Endurance project 182

[Tony Hunter]

I think you will have to stand back and have a good look and think about what you really want to do and spend.24 hrs is a long time,we didn't do that over a whole season's racing.I'm not knocking what you are doing and good luck with the project,you have got alot of work ahead of you.

 

[Sir_Dave]

Nice sounding project, will definately keep an eye on it!!

BTW, your engine budget is 3 times my car budget lol ...

 

[adamlstr]

Entry fees are about £2k if you sign up around Autosport time, or they were for 2010.

2010 was a blinding race to be part of, and just finishing feels amazing.

This looks to be a cracking project, what's with the Avantime (?) wheels though?

 

[Greeny.]

Wish I had the cash to do something simular, great project and I look forward to looking back through this thread

 

[richy22]

This link is me in Robot wars with our second robot Executioner As I said I like building things damned speed controller blew or we would have won that heat. That machine had a fully tuned stihl chainsaw motor powering a 35kg verticle disc It was hmmm dangerous. This is our spinner test ha ha

Huh..I work with the guys who did Chaos 2 from Robot wars..

http://robotwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos_2

 

[Icarus]

Hello Iceman,

You absolutely need to talk to us about this project. We have taken class wins with Renault Sport projects in both Britcar 24hr (2008) and Dubai 24hr (2009), designed and developed a number of 6/12/24hr and 1000KM endurance race cars and carry stock and spares of most bits that you'll need if you are serious about running this car competitively in MSA British Endurance (which is Britcars current name).

We have a number of engine options available including a 280bhp S2000 legal engine package (but this is £17K + options) and have worked with both Sadev and XTrac transmission solutions on Mk2 and Mk3 Clio platforms with paddle actuated shift from Shiftec and Geartronics.

Our workshop number is 01480 861902

Regards
Matt

Tour-De-Force/Track-Group

 

[Englebert]

With respect, i think it is very naiive to start with a road car when you could just buy an ex Clio Cup car and save a huge amount of money.

I've certainly learnt the hard way!

 

[Gray]

With respect, i think it is very naiive to start with a road car when you could just buy an ex Clio Cup car and save a huge amount of money.

I've certainly learnt the hard way!

This.

IMO you are far better off buying a cup racer and modifying that to your requirements... It will literally save you thousands of £££ and a hell of alot of time!

The cup racers run alot better parts the the road car and most "after market parts" already.. suspension, engine mounts, PROPER cage etc. etc.

 

[adamlstr]

With respect, i think it is very naiive to start with a road car when you could just buy an ex Clio Cup car and save a huge amount of money.

I'd wager that 90% of tin top race cars in the UK start with a road car.

I don't think it's naivety here, Mark has stated he likes to build his own stuff, props to him for it.

Judging by the location, the Aston, etc. I'd say that the extra investment needed to start from scratch isn't much of an issue here, as when Mark is finished he'll have something the means much more to him - especially when rolling over the finish line in October time.

 

[Englebert]

If the guy has money to throw about, then why not buy a Mosler...

I'm telling you, it is no fun spending 10s of thousands of pounds on a car that ends up uncompetitive. It being 'your' car makes no difference, losing sucks ass.

Just buy this...
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listing/34798/2006_Renault_Clio_182_Cup_Race_Car.html

Britcar is a competitive series. There are very few 'homebrew' cars, it is mainly current or past one make series stuff. An ex-Cup car will also make it far easier for regulations.

Otherwise, get realistic and join a race series that doesn't require such expensive modifications. There are plenty out there.

 

[Icarus]

If you are going to build a proper endurance racer then a Clio-Cup car doesn't really help that much. Okay you don't have to dip the shell but being a Cup car it will have damage already and probably require a new one regardless. The last Mk2 we did was an ex CC car and realisticaly all the customer got out of using a CC car was a gearbox and a cage a bit cheaper! LHD is nice from a weighting point of view but some guys just don't get feel comfortable with LHD which means you're starting with a road car regardless.

Englebert what's happening with regards your Lotus at the moment? Have you sold it yet? If not want us to have a look and see what we can recommend with regards reliability upgrades as I remember this being a complete pain for you! Did you see our Elise R at the brands 1000KM? We did very well with that one!

 

[Englebert]

It will never be sold dude, it owes us about £150k! The engine is ok now mate, touch wood! What sort of stuff do you? Think i recall your Elise doing well yeah...but bear in mind ours is 260bhp+ when allowed to rev so on the limit. With a lower limit it did the Britcar 6hr with no issues. The major problems are with the Quaife which i am relieved has now been replaced by a Hewland EGT as fitted to the NSX. The Hewland is not only much better, but slightly lighter, so the Elise should be a monster!

Will be doing Lotus only stuff with the Elise though. Next year back in Britcar with the NSX. It will run underpowered in Class 1 whilst an engine with ITBs is being designed.

 

[Icarus]

We do everything from engine design and development for motorsport and low volume OEM to an A service on an Elise! Our primary focus is motorsport development specificaly whole car build and support as we have the ability to undertake 85% of the design, development and build process in house as well as the kit and contacts to run a logistics and PR operation. This has spilled over into developing an array of tuner market products for various UK/European countries and we recently joined forces with HKS to offer the same to those who tune JDM but want products/components with their own brands.

Have you thought about seeing what Judd will do you on a K2000 engine as these were mostly reliable when I had experience of them (albeit not in endurance, Team Atomic Kitten baby ). Failing that keep the rev limit down!

I still like playing with Clios and Elises though Especialy when we get to make proper race cars out of them.

You'll have to pop and see our workshops as we've got some lovely kit these days:

Engine Dyno:

Chassis Dyno:

Chassis Setup Rig:

Service Centre:

Can't wait to see your NSX out again, the NSX is one of personal favourites and in all likelyhood will be what I swap my current Cerbera for later this year. If I don't see you before I'll see you at Britcar, think it's Aston and Lotus for us this year.

 

[Tom@JMS]

Now now Matt, there is a slight possibility that the above has no relevance whatsoever to the project thread ^

 

[Tunst]

i want to come work for you matt..

 

[Jonny1*2]

Nice set up matt :approve:

 

[Gally]

All got a bit willy waving in here didn't it.

Anyway good luck whatever you do mate and thanks for bringing the thread here, there is a lot of knowledge in a small place.

 

[Silent_Scone]

justified willy waving though Whatever that is on the Dyno it looks savage

 

[Icarus]

I know Englebert loves a bit of workshop bling so that was mostly for him!

It's an old BRM F1 on the chassis dyno 1.5L V8, 11K RPM rev limit.

Track-Group is coming on nicely though.

 

[Englebert]

That is awesome!

Back OT. Fair enough if you think the costs of using a road car is less than someone may think, i still think once you add up all the little things, you soon find costs you might not think of. For example, sometimes with a race car you may get 4 sets of wheels chucked in. I know the OP is going to do a lot himself, but there is labour costs to consider on top of parts. There is also availability and timescales for obtaining parts...

Have you raced before Iceman?

 

[todd100]

off subject but why are the cc's LHD?

 

[Icarus]

off subject but why are the cc's LHD?

For the same reason proper Hondas had engines that ran backwards. The driver is situated on the gearbox side (i.e. lighter side) which helps balance the weight of the engine and as such gives you corner weights closer to ideal.......... in the case of the CC's there's also the fairly large aspect that they race throughout Europe and only the UK is RHD

 

[IcemanUK]

Hello Iceman,

You absolutely need to talk to us about this project. We have taken class wins with Renault Sport projects in both Britcar 24hr (2008) and Dubai 24hr (2009), designed and developed a number of 6/12/24hr and 1000KM endurance race cars and carry stock and spares of most bits that you'll need if you are serious about running this car competitively in MSA British Endurance (which is Britcars current name).

We have a number of engine options available including a 280bhp S2000 legal engine package (but this is £17K + options) and have worked with both Sadev and XTrac transmission solutions on Mk2 and Mk3 Clio platforms with paddle actuated shift from Shiftec and Geartronics.

Our workshop number is 01480 861902

Regards
Matt

Tour-De-Force/Track-Group

Will give you a call Matt. You're helping Nick with his CLio already

WAY too late to be thinking about other cars now as mine is now fully stripped with engine out and I have an Oreca cage in the garage already bought. For britcar you can only use another engine from the renault range (what is the S2000 from a Honda?) If it's normally aspirated then it has to stay that way.

 

[Icarus]

Will give you a call Matt. You're helping Nick with his CLio already

WAY too late to be thinking about other cars now as mine is now fully stripped with engine out and I have an Oreca cage in the garage already bought. For britcar you can only use another engine from the renault range (what is the S2000 from a Honda?) If it's normally aspirated then it has to stay that way.

We are indeed and Nicks Clio is a peach! Really nice bit of kit and very quick.

S2000 relates to the Super 2000 rules specified by (amongst a few other things) BTCC, WTCC and quite a bit of Euro Rally. It's a set of rules that dictate certain dimensions and materials which can be used in the engines construction. We have an S2000 (spec) F4R 830 which could be used as essentially an off the shelf engine package with warranty but it's quite pricey, a lot of which is making the power with the restrictive S2000 regs.

A 230bhp endurance (i.e. 24hr) engine is a much better prospect in terms of money/life/results (more suitable fuel burn rate). 250bhp is do-able without too much bother but that extra 20bhp costs a lot of wedge as the head and valvetrain work is costly.

Best Regards
Matt

 

[LIL B]

Honda H22 -> 2L, Reversed head for ITB and larger Mani +20k = 350hp - and you've won.

Matt, what can be done with the Clio engine to make over 250bhp? (NA)

 

[Sanders]

Sounds like a nice project, id love to do something like this if i had the money and knowledge

 

[IcemanUK]

Update

Hi Guys

Here is today's update. Been busy this morning with Chris as next week I go back to Switzerland so progress (and updates) will be much slower after that Anyway here goes.

Chris helped me today so here he is. Top bloke who also has a Clio.



Getting there with the stripping, dash out next.



Rear stripped, Must take my grinder to all those brackets next.



Roof bogeys



Engine out now



And on the floor



Oreca Cage



Plastic crap and seats.



More crap and carpet




So quite a lot done today. I have taken a perfectly good road car and reduced it to scrap value in less than 24 hours, mmm nice.

Next on the list is dash out and interior clean out ready for cage to go in. Going to take the sub frame and assorted engine bits to the powder coaters tomorrow and generally clean everything up.

Questions:

1. Can I run a brake bias valve with ABS? If so the double connector lever one I guess from demon tweeks?

2. Would you take that big panel off the roof? If so how as it looks like it's been welded (glued on)

3. Do I need to change the rear calipers for racing or just the fronts?

4. Stick with 16 inch wheels?

5. I want to put plastic windows in all round. Do I just remove the electric motors and glass in the doors? Will the frame stay up if I do that?

6. What current series can this race in apart from track day trophy?

Best
Mark

PPS
To all the guys saying I should have done this or should have done that. Yes you're right of course and I know. I should have done a LOT of things different in my life

This build is for my enjoyment and once it's done to give me some race experience in a series like track day trophy etc and then do Britcar if we are ready and able and then change it for a meganne trophy (bought and ready to go)

PPPS

This bit

"We are indeed and Nicks Clio is a peach! Really nice bit of kit and very quick." IS what I want mine to be like albeit with a fully forged engine and then I think much endurance fun will be had by all

 

[Icarus]

Honda H22 -> 2L, Reversed for ITB and larger Mani +15k = 300hp - and you've won.

Matt, what can be done with the Clio engine to make over 250bhp? (NA)

Bottom end geo etc. is pretty good so just requires bits light enough and stiff enough to do the revs. The cylinder head, valve gear, induction and exhaust manifold is where the big power comes from. The valve gear is what adds the largest amount of cost as the stock bits aren't any good for 9.2K RPM regardless of how stiff a spring you stick in the middle of them Getting them to rev is the key to doing it at a reasonable cost as you only need 145ftlbs ish at 9K to make 250 beans.

It gets expensive when you have a mandatory 8500RPM limit to deal with!

 

[Tom@JMS]

IIRC The stock valvetrain will only do 8.3k aprox before they experience float.

Without denying the importance of the smaller projects around, it is nice to see more projects with clout popping up, aka Burpspeed, The ph1 Meggy engine project etc - certainly makes more interesting evening reading!

 

[Conlon]

good progress fella, will be good to follow this thread!

 

[harribo66]

Sounds like a great challenge mate! Will b keeping a close eye on this! . Good look mate!

 

[Icarus]

Re: Update

Have you worked out how many spare bits you can e-bay yet?

Questions:

1. Can I run a brake bias valve with ABS? If so the double connector lever one I guess from demon tweeks

Best
Mark

PPS
To all the guys saying I should have done this or should have done that. Yes you're right of course and I know. I should have done a LOT of things different in my life

This build is for my enjoyment and once it's done to give me some race experience in a series like track day trophy etc and then do Britcar if we are ready and able and then change it for a meganne trophy (bought and ready to go)

PPPS

This bit

"We are indeed and Nicks Clio is a peach! Really nice bit of kit and very quick." IS what I want mine to be like albeit with a fully forged engine and then I think much endurance fun will be had by all

With the Clio ABS no not really - whilst the valve block is open it'll do something but once it's in anti-lock then all bets are off as it'll apply/release whatever wheel it feels needs it the most. It might work to make the car sit down a bit more under initial breaking though. Personaly I'd keep the ABS system standard to start with and see how it goes, ABS is a massive + point on an endurance car and I'd take it over adjustable brake bias (which ABS sort of is under the right conditions ).

Nick has a fantastic bit of kit now but a Mk2 with 230 beans should be able to keep it honest! Lower weight vs more developed chassis.

 

[sprintycup]

Re: Update

Hmmm I will be following this.

We are building an mx5 to enter this so hopefully see you there iceman.

Entry costs this year are

Payment before 31/3/11 - £3350+vat

Payment between 1/4/11 and 31/7/11 - £4350+vat

Payment after 31/7/11 - £5350+vat

 

[Jonny1*2]

Re: Update

Hmmm I will be following this.

We are building an mx5 to enter this so hopefully see you there iceman.

Entry costs this year are

Payment before 31/3/11 - £3350+vat

Payment between 1/4/11 and 31/7/11 - £4350+vat

Payment after 31/7/11 - £5350+vat

Jesus! I'm assuming you mean depending on when you pay, it will make a difference cost wise, and it's not all those figures added up :S? Can you win money at the end of it?

Questions:

1. Can I run a brake bias valve with ABS? If so the double connector lever one I guess from demon tweeks?

2. Would you take that big panel off the roof? If so how as it looks like it's been welded (glued on)

3. Do I need to change the rear calipers for racing or just the fronts?

4. Stick with 16 inch wheels?

5. I want to put plastic windows in all round. Do I just remove the electric motors and glass in the doors? Will the frame stay up if I do that?

6. What current series can this race in apart from track day trophy?

Nice to see you're making progress mate.

2) I wouldn't go messing with the roof. Slightest crash in clios and they like to crease :S. Keep a bit of strength up there.

4) Wheel wise, 15" is the way to go. There are spare wheels going for sale all the time on here (OZ f1s are the most used, and at £150 a set it might be worth getting a few sets. lol watch the price on f1s rocket now ). Tyre wise they are cheaper, and you'll get more flexibility from them when messing with ride height/camber etc. On that note, have you decided what suspension you'll be running?
Do you have to use slicks btw? I only ask because they're not cheap, and toyo r888's would be just as good on a long stint and probably put less strain on the engine. Plus you can run them to slicks too. Obvioulsy go for the harder compound GG IIRC.

5) Putting polycarb windows in all round would be an improvement to COG. Just remove all the motors/glass and either use a manual handle system (scrap yard ftw ), or have them fixed with slide flap thingys in (name escapes me). If you're going to mess with the windscreen too, it might be worth having a look at the options. Heated ones are probably the best if fogging up, but remember you'll need some heat in there if it's cold.

6) Jay and Tony are running in TinTop series, and there is a lad called scott who does road rallying in his. Probably a few options.

Needless to say there are a few projects to take inspiration from. Bit of light reading for you while you're eating chocolate in the tax haven they call Switzerland

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?467333-Burpspeed-Version-2-Race-Car-Build

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?325511-Bomber-s-Awesome-Ph1-Track-Slut

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?540566-JMS-182-Racecar.

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?437730-Chrispy-s-ITB-d-amp-Caged-182-Track-Car

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...ITB-2010-track-season-updates&highlight=rally

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?446218-182-Cup-Rally-Project&highlight=rally

 

[IcemanUK]

Hey thanks for all those answers, great stuff.

Ok ill leave that panel in the roof.

15s nice and as you say cheaper. Lighter wheel is better for handling too yes? Unsprung weight and all that jazz. For Britcar you have to use Dunlops so can use slicks yes, I will take a look at the regs to see what tyres are on the list from the range.

Got you on the windows and yes going for heated screen. I'm not having a heater in at all as with underwear and a good suit (and not doing a winter series) im not seeing cold as a factor. We can always fit one of those little leccy ones if it becomes and issue I guess.

Cheers
Mark

PS

Tax haven? Well yes I suppose it is compared to rip off Britain.

 

[IcemanUK]

Re: Update

Here are some pictures of Chris and Nicks clio's

Nice side view




Engine shot




Front Side with Chris car in background




Chris car




Racing




Mark.

 

[IcemanUK]

Yes we have a color theme going on here Mine will be blue and lambo orange. Nick's doing a design for me which I will post up when done.

 

[Blue Mez]

Good look with everything Mark, Wish i had money like that to spend!

 

[welshname]

you should get the interior up for sale on here. it will be gone quicker than you can be arsed to take it to a skip and will get you some money. same with anything else you are stripping out.

 

[Blue Mez]

you should get the interior up for sale on here. it will be gone quicker than you can be arsed to take it to a skip and will get you some money. same with anything else you are stripping out.

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?552529-182-Seats-for-Sale