Jam-Sport wilwood kit

[Ph1 Tom]

Is the Jam-Sport 295mm kit worth the outlay? More for track days rather than the road as the car will have full interior etc so a bit concerned about fade on the standard setup after a while.

Also what discs will replace the ones in the kit? Are they custom or perhaps 5 stud discs redrilled?

As for the pads I know the dynalite ones are modified to suit the midilites.

 

[Budgie]

Total overkill.

Decent fluid, discs and pads on a 1*2 are all you'll ever need.

 

[BrianB]

I'm sure the pad area is actually smaller than standard 1*2 pads

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Yes. But the total area over which pressure is applied by the 4 pistons is greater and more even, also there is no flex like with a standard calliper.

I know that they will be better than standard, no doubting that. But I've had cars before where people have said "just uprated pads and discs will do" and they haven't done, not even with HC discs and DS3000 pads and high temp fluid.

My main concern is sourcing discs for the kit. I don't want to be paying a fortune for discs each time.

 

[Adamm.]

If you want to do it mate then do it.

Only a small majority have bothered and even most of the serious track cars haven't got them so I wouldn't say its necessary.

 

[Fletcher]

Yes. But the total area over which pressure is applied by the 4 pistons is greater and more even, also there is no flex like with a standard calliper.

I know that they will be better than standard, no doubting that. But I've had cars before where people have said "just uprated pads and discs will do" and they haven't done, not even with HC discs and DS3000 pads and high temp fluid.

My main concern is sourcing discs for the kit. I don't want to be paying a fortune for discs each time.

I have a set of Compbrake 4 pots on my 172. Had them fitted now since 2008 and they have been great, very good stopping power and pedal feel and much lighter than standard cailpers. I am currently running DS3000 pads.

They're better than the willwood midlite kit IMO as they have separate bells and rotors. But IIRC you can run standard discs with the willwood kit.

 

[Clart]

I had the wilwood kit with bells and rotors on the trophy. They are seriously epic stopping power and going back to standard felt like the car wasn't gonna stop. As said, they are however complete overkill for 99% of drivers. I'd try something like brembo hc, ds2500s, braided lines and some decent fluid before you shell out for some 4 pots.

 

[Bluebeard]

Even Cup race cars didn't need them, that answers your question.

If you want to buy them then buy them, it's down to you as its your money.

If I had an endless budget I'd certainly have them on mine!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes. But the total area over which pressure is applied by the 4 pistons is greater and more even, also there is no flex like with a standard calliper.

You MUST be having a laugh? Wilwoods are famous for being the least rigid 4 pot calipers out there.

Dont get me wrong I have used them before myself and would again potentially as they are light and they work ok, but to say there is no flex is like saying the best thing about a 172 is how suitable it is for towing.

Their biggest advantage of the standard caliper is weight saving really TBH. You wont notice a significant performance increase with them IME.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Even Cup race cars didn't need them, that answers your question.

Cup racers arent a great example as they are low on power and able to corner at relatively huge speeds, so dont actually need to shed much speed as often as the average trackday car does.

 

[Clart]

Their biggest advantage of the standard caliper is weight saving really TBH. You wont notice a significant performance increase with them IME.

I certainly did!

 

[Chip-mk1]

I certainly did!

Compared to the same grade disks and pads on standard calipers, or are you comparing uprated pads in the willwood with standard pads?

IF you noiced a big difference then I'd wager you had a fault with the standard setup somewhere as in good working order it performs very much the same as the willwood, and why wouldnt it given that the standard piston is wide enough to provide relatively even pad pressure in the first place and they are almost the same size pad and are acting with the same amount of pressure, the brake pad doesnt actually care much if its a trendy 4 pot caliper or a single piston caliper pushing it unless the standard piston is too small and in the case of the clio one it just isnt in the first place.
The main advantage of multi piston calipers is allowing you to run a different shape pad so that its longer and thinner and hence you can use a large diameter ally bell which is good for dissipating heat and good for ligthness, the moment you stick a set of wilwoods on with the standard disks, you are not seeing these advantages, its just a placebo effect when people think they are better, Ive actually measured them with same make pads on other cars compared to a single piston caliper similar to the clio one and the actual braking force applied is no better, the only advantage is in weight saving and slightly better heat dissipation but when do you last overheat the fluid on the standard clio setup when using decent fluid anyway?

 

[Clart]

Who said anything about standard discs?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Who said anything about standard discs?

The kit in question is just standard type disks (ie single piece steel disk) of 295mm diameter, as opposed to a proper bells and rotors setup, if you are talking about something different then it might be worth mentioning what as its not much use people being given your opinion if they dont actually know what the opinion is of, lol

 

[Advikaz]

I wouldn't bother. There are better kits out there if you're wanting to throw money at it & IMO Wilwoods aren't all that great.

If you're looking for more stopping power get a good set of pads & discs combo with fluid & hoses & maybe some ducting. If you're struggling with them I'd sooner look at your driving style than the car tbh.

 

[Munson]

Generally when people uprate their brakes, the biggest difference they notice is from the pad compound.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Generally when people uprate their brakes, the biggest difference they notice is from the pad compound.

Agreed, especially in the case of the clio if trying to retain 15" wheels, as the difference in anything else like disk or pad size is going to be negligible and the standard calipers are actually pretty reasonable for a one pot design in the first place with pretty good piston size providing a fairly even clamping force to start with.

 

[Clart]

The kit in question is just standard type disks (ie single piece steel disk) of 295mm diameter, as opposed to a proper bells and rotors setup, if you are talking about something different then it might be worth mentioning what as its not much use people being given your opinion if they dont actually know what the opinion is of, lol

I had the wilwood kit with bells and rotors on the trophy. They are seriously epic stopping power and going back to standard felt like the car wasn't gonna stop. As said, they are however complete overkill for 99% of drivers. I'd try something like brembo hc, ds2500s, braided lines and some decent fluid before you shell out for some 4 pots.

perhaps i should make it clearer...

 

[Chip-mk1]

perhaps i should make it clearer...

Apologies, didnt realise you had posted earlier in the thread as well.
Although you still didnt mention what size the disks were and thats pretty important to stopping power as it effects the amount of leverage they have so I still stand by the fact that your comment is of pretty limited use as we still dont know in any detail what you are actually talking about liking in the first place, what size disks were they?
And likewise you didnt comment on what pad compound on wilwood you were comparing to what pad compound on the standard, thats another massive factor.

 

[Fletcher]

TBH If I had another Clio I don't think I would bother with 4 pots. On the track I am not that heavy on the brakes, my 172 is very light and the standard calipers with goodridge hoses, and a decent pad/ discs stop the car well enough IMO.

 

[...]

that and i would be changing fluid on a track car (trackday) annually and using a very good fluid .....


in a no abs car i would be looking at something like castrol srf , the difference that makes to not fading is truly amazing .

 

[Munson]

I boiled SRF at Rockingham.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I boiled SRF at Rockingham.

Then you need to learn to go round corners more quickly so you dont keep slowing down so much, lol

 

[Munson]

Lol probably. TBF I bled some through, and removed the fogs and liners. It was ok after that.

 

[...]

Then you need to learn to go round corners more quickly so you dont keep slowing down so much, lol

or when was it last changed , as this most likely is another case of using a race bred product not within spec , SRF is highly hydroscopic ,soaks up water like a sponge , we changed it every 6 months , and always after a nice damp winter.

SRF thats soaked up water will boil after 2 laps if its bad enough ....... not the fault of the fluid as the spec sheets with it tell you what to expect ..... when its right nothing touches it .

 

[Munson]

This was brand new fluid. I just don't brake until I can see the whites of their eyes lol.

Oh and I was using CL pads, so there was very little chance of pad fade occurring before the fluid gave up. The point of the story being that at some point, something will give. Eventually you have to actively cool the brakes.

 

[...]

you do have to cool them yes , totally agree , however you also need to make sure everything else is spot on first

i am going to shortly sort all the brakes on out 172 , and i'll start from scratch checking everything , as they aren't great at the moment , but i bet the standard setup with decent pads and fluid will be more than capable , i wouldn't say i brake late , just when i need to ,.

 

[Clart]

Apologies, didnt realise you had posted earlier in the thread as well.
Although you still didnt mention what size the disks were and thats pretty important to stopping power as it effects the amount of leverage they have so I still stand by the fact that your comment is of pretty limited use as we still dont know in any detail what you are actually talking about liking in the first place, what size disks were they?
And likewise you didnt comment on what pad compound on wilwood you were comparing to what pad compound on the standard, thats another massive factor.

http://www.jam-sport.co.uk/home/ren...ot-brake-kit-with-seperate-bell-ap-rotor.html

This is the kit i had.

 

[Chip-mk1]

http://www.jam-sport.co.uk/home/ren...ot-brake-kit-with-seperate-bell-ap-rotor.html

This is the kit i had.

Ive driven on that kit, and so long as the standard calipers are free and working properly Ive not really been able to tell any difference on the same spec of pads with both kits.

I would say if you noticed a big difference it was because there was a problem with your previous setup (glazed disks, not as compound pads, sticky caliper etc), although if you were actually fading the original setup (cant see why you would if you can drive and had decent pads and fluid etc) then the ally bells might help on the cooling front I guess.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Ahhhhh my favourite "attracts stupid responses" topic on CS - do you need better brakes?

I had the wilwood kit with bells and rotors on the trophy. They are seriously epic stopping power and going back to standard felt like the car wasn't gonna stop. As said, they are however complete overkill for 99% of drivers. I'd try something like brembo hc, ds2500s, braided lines and some decent fluid before you shell out for some 4 pots.

I've got Clart's old kit - it's astounding. The car will stop on a dot. I had DS2500's, brembo HC's, braided lines and cooling from front bumper - completely cooked that setup in 2hours at Donington. I love my wilwoods.

Their biggest advantage of the standard caliper is weight saving really TBH. You wont notice a significant performance increase with them IME.

Don't understand that comment - as they weigh significantly less than standard calipers.

Cup racers arent a great example as they are low on power and able to corner at relatively huge speeds, so dont actually need to shed much speed as often as the average trackday car does.

Yep - I hate it when people say "cup racers dont need them" or "burpspeed dont need them" - those cars handle phenomenly and don't really hugely rely on brakes.

Ive driven on that kit, and so long as the standard calipers are free and working properly Ive not really been able to tell any difference on the same spec of pads with both kits.

I would say if you noticed a big difference it was because there was a problem with your previous setup (glazed disks, not as compound pads, sticky caliper etc), although if you were actually fading the original setup (cant see why you would if you can drive and had decent pads and fluid etc) then the ally bells might help on the cooling front I guess.

Sorry but couldn't disagree more than this. Fitting Clart's wilwood 4pot kit with jamsport bells and ap 295mm rotors is night and day over the standard calipers with ds2500's and brembo hc discs. Easily double the stopping force, a better pedal feel, and they are noticeably lighter which has reduced the unsprung mass at the front and makes the car feel nicer to drive with a more responsive turn in

Cost me £600 - that's the same as a set of tyres. Why people think a set of R888's is essential but standard calipers are fine is beyond me.
Though yes the price new - £1200 is rediculous lol

 

[Cup_Phil]

Oh yeah and I run racing blue fluid - no ABS, the wheels were so hot the paint was nearly falling off at Donington and the fluid boiled

Can rag the wilwoods all day long and they still stop brilliantly.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Their biggest advantage over the standard caliper is weight saving really TBH. You wont notice a significant performance increase with them IME.

Don't understand that comment - as they weigh significantly less than standard calipers.

Sorry mate, was just a typo, I was saying their biggest advantage as calipers over the standard calipers is their being lighter.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Fitting Clart's wilwood 4pot kit with jamsport bells and ap 295mm rotors is night and day over the standard calipers with ds2500's and brembo hc discs. Easily double the stopping force

The only way you have twice the stopping force now is if you had a problem before, its essentially the same pad, on the size size disk, where do you think this extra 100% braking force is actually coming from?
Plus some of the gains you are talking about are from the bells being better at dissipating and conducting heat not the calipers.

 

[Sir_Dave]

I had DS2500's, brembo HC's, braided lines and cooling from front bumper - completely cooked that setup in 2hours at Donington.

And yet ive done the same track, with the same brake setup, in a lard ar5e Trophy and had no issues with fade at all day. In fact, i spent so much time on track that i cooked the power steering pump & alternator, but not the brakes lol. Have you done the same trackday with the Willwoods yet out of interest Phil?

As has been touched upon already, braking is very much a personal thing, & usually goes hand in hand with the level of track experience and prowess a driver has. Personally, instead of spending £600 on even 2nd hand Willwoods, i would spend £200 on a trackday, £200 on tuition for said trackday and £200 on some RC5+ and decent brake fluid. The latter will make for a far quicker car than spaffy brakes. Imho of course.

 

[Christopher.]

I had a set on my RB, total overkill but f**k me there good !

 

[Cup_Phil]

Discs are 12mm bigger than standard

100% is probably an exaggeration but they offer a significant increase in stopping power - and there was nothing wrong with my standard brakes, they lasted me well for a year of track abuse but the heat meant after a 30-40minute session they were dead

4pots are worth it IMO purely because of the reduction in weight and the much better brake pedal feel (more gradual application means it's easier to find the absolute maximum braking force without locking up)
But it's all relative - I thought £1k on coilovers was good value for money, £600 for a roll cage, £500 for an exhaust system lol... if you're building a budget track car then they are definitely not the first thing to upgrade

 

[Cup_Phil]

And yet ive done the same track, with the same brake setup, in a lard ar5e Trophy and had no issues with fade at all day. In fact, i spent so much time on track that i cooked the power steering pump & alternator, but not the brakes lol. Have you done the same trackday with the Willwoods yet out of interest Phil?

Not yet but I have ermmm been out on some ermmm private tracks and given them absolute hell lol - they are much better at getting rid of the heat, you can tell just by the lack of smoke pooring off the alloys I used to get.
Also comparing a car with different suspension, different tyres, 30bhp less and a different driver is hardly definitive is it? I was ragging the living s**t out of the car - most people don't

 

[Chip-mk1]

100% is probably an exaggeration

Lol, yeah "problably"

4pots are worth it IMO purely because of the reduction in weight and the much better brake pedal feel (more gradual application means it's easier to find the absolute maximum braking force without locking up)
But it's all relative - I thought £1k on coilovers was good value for money, £600 for a roll cage, £500 for an exhaust system lol... if you're building a budget track car then they are definitely not the first thing to upgrade

My biggest issue with those kits is that you are spending so much money just to end up with some quite poor quality calipers anyway, why not pay a bit more once you are that far in and get something decent instead?

Personally ive used willwoods before (last time was on my cams and itb trackday corsa that I only got rid of less than a year ago) but only as a cheap way to get less unsprung weight when bought secondhand for a few hundred quid, once you are into paying for seperate disks and bells and custom brackets etc it seems a bit of a poor choice of caliper to go with it.

 

[Cup_Phil]

If bought new I agree as £1200 is insane, but for £600 it's not bad value for money
And yes there are a lot of scare stories about wilwoods flexing and bending etc.. but at the end of the day its a 1ton french hatch back - it doesn't take much stopping lol
I could have gone down the route of spending double and getting the TDF kit like James... but lol

 

[Cup_Phil]

Also - are you permanently connected to the internet? You always seem to be online when I am - and I'm a web developer LOL