K4M Rally Build

[Pauleds]

Rallying is categorised by CC, not power.
I know of 1400cc cars running 180+bhp which can easily beat the higher classed cars.
Geternally rallying is classed as.....
Up to 1000cc
Up to 1400cc
Up to 1600cc
Up to 2000cc
Over 2000cc
Forced induction runs a 1.7 multiplier

So buy running his current engine he's up to 1600cc, which is a competitive class, but generally less of a budget of the up to 2000cc class which has stuff with mega power escorts etc.

 

[Tomo3292]

So after being to the JAFFA a stages at Pembrey Circuit at the weekend, I seen the 1600cc class and it was fairly strong, in particular a B16B Civic which has 185bhp straight out of the crate, without any mods what so ever.

If this is a route I want to go down then I'm going to have to think about a few ideas, I would ideal need the same sort o power. Or be at least a bit more realistic what I want and not spend as much and enjoy just being out there on the stages.

Spoke to a guy who builds Mk2 Escorts and he rekons, 180-190bhp is achievable for around about 2500-3000 quid.

A fully steel bottom end, with a lot of head work done, some wild cams and some bodies. This is without the remap costed.

Or the second option is just to get around about 150bhp and just enjoy the whole experience.

Having though about this much in depth I think I just need to think with head and not the heart and see what results come with around the 150bhp engine and just enjoy the experience, after all if you have a properly set up car and can pedal it well plus it's reliable I recon I'll be onto a winner!

 

[Tomo3292]

So on I cracked again with the whole stripping process, tonight was mainly a clean up of the bay again, along with removing that sticky tar like substance and prep ready for painting.

White spirit really does work a treat in order of cleaning it up nicely!

As you can see I have already started to give the bay in certain areas a coat of smooth white!

Had a bargain of spray gun 50 quid, so I thought about the idea and began to make a start.

It's not 100% by any means but good enough for what I will need it for!
Underneath the arches I am going to paint it white with stone chip gravel protect paint!

And below you can see the progress made after the primer phase and 1 coat of white smooth paint!

Pretty happy with how it looks so far!

Next I moved into the rear part of the cars loom, while the paint started to dry, by removing all the rear loom and ancillaries that I wouldn't require. Rear wiper, rear heated windscreen, rear central locking.

Once I get the front painted to a stage that I'm happy with I can start ordering some coilovers suspension bracketry, and bushes.

 

[Tomo3292]

Any engine builder s on here I can have a chat with??

 

[Twingo 1??]

I think you making the correct decision about the engine as I personally would spend the money on suspension and brakes first and have a year in a less powered car and do some learning . There has been some quite cheep 133 engines on eBay as that would be a better starting point than your engine as you have the cams with them and the internals are better . Only thing I am struggling with is a diff for the 133 box also the 133 box has good ratios especially when the car is on 15"

 

[Tomo3292]

I think you making the correct decision about the engine as I personally would spend the money on suspension and brakes first and have a year in a less powered car and do some learning . There has been some quite cheep 133 engines on eBay as that would be a better starting point than your engine as you have the cams with them and the internals are better . Only thing I am struggling with is a diff for the 133 box also the 133 box has good ratios especially when the car is on 15"

Hi mate cheers for the Reply.
Glad someone thinks so haha!
I get where the boys are coming from to stick a 172 in it, but that's further down the line.

I'm probably gonna get the 750mc cage and that sorted 1st then buy the 133 engine.

I've got a few questions for yourself. CAMs I'm looking at getting the Cat Cams for the 133 engine. What cams are you running with yours.

Manifold?? Which one is best suited??

Gearbox, I was gonna use the K4M clio one, what's the difference between both any ideas?

Cheers once again

 

[Twingo 1??]

Hi mate cheers for the Reply.
Glad someone thinks so haha!
I get where the boys are coming from to stick a 172 in it, but that's further down the line.

I'm probably gonna get the 750mc cage and that sorted 1st then buy the 133 engine.

I've got a few questions for yourself. CAMs I'm looking at getting the Cat Cams for the 133 engine. What cams are you running with yours.

Manifold?? Which one is best suited??

Gearbox, I was gonna use the K4M clio one, what's the difference between both any ideas?

Cheers once again

The 133 motor is a cracker ! I basically have the k-tec 163 kit but I only payed ¼ of the price its all getting fitted at the end of January with the cambelt ect . I rally a 1700 puma in the 2000 class and although its down on power it will out brake and handle most . If you look on the 133 forum for project ltd you will see what I did to the puma . I don't know what the difference is between the boxes but on my 133 on 15" its tops out about 110 .

 

[Tomo3292]

Quite a bit more done today. Trial fitted the Mark Fish Cage 6 point with cross door bars and harness bars it's a thing of beauty!

As I bought it 2nd hand any ideas where I can get the Feet plates!
Tried Mark fish on Facebook but unable to send messages for some reason.

Also managed to remove the accelerator pedal, brake pedal, and clutch pedal assembly. Flipped it over and seen the state of the brake servor.

Looks like someone has tied topping it up and spilt it all over the place!
So the plan is to strip it back, primer it and spray it black again.

The extent of the task can be seen below!

Also managed to give the bay another coat of smooth white and underneath the scuttle panel, to tidy everything up a bit. Personally think it looks OK overall not brilliant finish but not too bad in a budget.

Gonna give it 3 coats of clear lacquer to protect it a bit when I'm finally happy with it all. Here's a few pics of the progress below.

While I'm waiting for the paint to stand. Tomorrow the plan is to remove all the sticky stuff from the floor inside the car. Can't believe how much that stuff weighs.

Also looking at stripping the rear of the car, to inspect all areas before rebuilding the rear beam and freshening things up!:

 

[Tomo3292]

Finally finished one or two things that I'm happy with and put back in the car, Not much but it's a start on putting it back together.

1stly gave the wiper arms a run down. Bit of primer and sprayed them Matt black, looks a bit better than the old rusty ones.

Next I gave the washer bottle a good old clean with some oven cleaner and replaced the washer pump. Looks much cleaner now.

Originally I was going to build the front end 1st, but stumbled across the 750MC cage for a good little price, which changed things a bit.

So now I have decided to get the car up on all 4s and strip, inspect, clean, replace what's needed. You can see below how rough looking the rear is:

This going to be painted with the good old Schultz gun and Anti Stone Chip white paint, the same treatment as the front arches will get.

The front is going to be an all white theme, with the underneath sealed in black. I'm pretty much happy with the engine bay now, a few coats of clear lacquer and I'll be there.

I have removed the sunroof as you can't compete with one in and have ordered a 600x900x1.5mm alluminium plate with some watertight rivets to replace this big gaping hole as you can see below.

I plan to spray the sheet metal 1stly in primer then in high gloss white, and place a roof scoop on top for ventilation.

Until the next time!!!!

 

[Tomo3292]

Got a fair bit achieved again tonight, progress is progress as they say.

Decided to get all the mud and durt off the underside of the car before sealing it.

One thing lead to another and I found myself fully removing the rear beam and fuel tank, and cleaning inspecting the lot. Just waiting for the White anti stone chip paint now for the arches.

After that decided to have a look at what state the beam was in and I was surprisingly impressed.

A lot of crap on there so decided to remove it with a wire brush, and most of it was intacted. Still contemplating on sending it for blasting and powder coating along with the front subframe. Just the added costs could be spent on a decent set of coilovers.

And to my surprise after doing that lot 7 dustpans of crap later. Could of sold it to the local gardeners round the corner!

Last thing before the end of tonight's session was to remove the OEM bushes. These again will be replaced by all new Strongflex Black series next month!

End of PLAY tonight!

 

[Tomo3292]

Right Gents decided to listen to a few members on here and decided to go down the 172 route as my K4M doesn't run VVT and not too sure how I would get around it on the twingo 133 engine.

The plan is to purchase a full interior and engine loom, UCH, Clocks, ECU key and engine.

I'm pretty decent with wiring diagrams and have a background in electronics so I'm hoping this will work out over the next few months.

Ideally before the end of next year I will be also going down the ITB route aswell.

Advice most welcome

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Well done Tomo, think this is a good move, should open up a lot of tuning potential for you

 

[Tomo3292]

Well done Tomo, think this is a good move, should open up a lot of tuning potential for you :smile:

Cheers mate, but more power but more headaches to get it all up and running.

I just need to clarify as long as I have a 172 interior loom, engine loom, UCH, clocks, ECU and Key in theory I should be onto a winner.

The only doubt I have is does the ECU need some sort of unlocking ??

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Yeah my knowledge isn't good enough to help you there. The best bet is probably to buy an accident damaged 172/182 and then you know you have everything you need, but I'm sure you won't struggle for advice to get it up and running

 

[Tomo3292]

Bit of an update it's been a while:

Jobs I have recently done.
Replaced bushes with Strongflex black series
Replaces all suspnsion with coilovers
Started making up new brake lines (replacing ABS)
Installed hydraulic handbrake(later found master cylinder thread was fooked)
Refreshed rear beam.
Got all arche refreshed in white to match engine bay.
And finally got myself a 59k 172 engine.

 

[Tomo3292]

Forgot to mention also installed top PMS top mounts and strut brace.

Decided to spray the inside of scuttle panel Black and then freshen up things there too!

Next up looking forward to finishing off the suspension before the engine build begins.

I'm thinking of going down a ported matched inlet along with enlarged throttle body as upose to a JMS Manifold.

 

[Tomo3292]

So having been away from the garage for a few months because of a shoulder reconstruction. I thought I'd best get back to it afte seeing @Pauleds progress on his rally car. I'd be happy if mine turned out like that in the next few months.
Engine below purchased on 54k with recent dephaser and belt being done. Gonna look for a inlet which has ports matched, maybe a larger throttle body and a 182 manifold.

Also on the look out for a decent gearbox, and new clutch kit. Any recommendations??

 

[mikekean]

Instead of riveting a plate over the sunroof which is a bit 80's throw it together rally style have you considered making an aluminium panel the exact dimensions of the glass to fit the sunroof mechanism? That way you have a functional sunroof to let warm air out and wont need to paint your roof etc after.

 

[Tomo3292]

So aint really done an update for a while as funds were a bit low due to moving house.

On the plus side i have a new garage to play with.

Anyhow back to the car. Decided to go with a standard 172 set up at the moment. And look at improvements in the near future.

Pretty happy that the engine is back together with the jc5 129 gearbox supplied from a member on here.

Its had a new valeo clutch and sporting some ARP bolts alonv with a full cup alternator setup. And a new water pump.

 

[Tomo3292]

Also rebuilt the whole front suspension which now has proflex black series all round. New coilovers. New pms top mounts and bearings. Pms strut brace. New hubs. New track rod ends. New anti roll bar yellow series bushes and a refreshed anti roll bar. Also installed some new front vented and grooved EBC discs and pads, and fave the calipers a lick of paint too.

Was umming and arring to use matt lewis racing braided hoses...so went and installed them too.

The arch area was ground down Given a coat of anto stome chip paint and sprayed white. Was pretty happy with the end results.

 

[Tomo3292]

Not too shabby for my 1st ever project.

Next its looking at purchasing a engine crane unless somebody in south wales hires them. And attempt to get the engine back in.

 

[Tomo3292]

Can't believe I ain't touched the car for over two months.

However managed to purchase an engine crane which made life a he'll of a lot easier.
After an hour or.two of messing around it was in its new home.

Hopefully next weekend I can have a good tidy up get the loom sorted and get everything plugged up.

Just waiting for the new radiator, oil cooler, expansion tank and drivers side driveshaft. Then it's a case of finishing the Inside off

 

[dynodan]

Will be interested to see how this turns out - I have a client who wants to get his son into rallying and I've always thought a little Clio would be a good shout

 

[Tomo3292]

Unfortunately due to being away from home so much and a lack of funds at the moment. I have concentrated much of my time and budget into the geometry of the suspension set-up.
Rallying is a lot about reliability and having the correct setup / tyres. I mean there's technically 172bhp available straight away so that alone stands me in good stead. The plan is to enjoy its 1st season in rallying and then get a hold of a second engine and do something like the following:

Arp bolts
Head work - porting / polishing
high profile cams
new gaskets
new water pump
new de phaser
new timing belt kit
Jenvey ITB's

but for now just going try and finish it as soon as possible around work commitments and enjoy getting used to rallying.
Ive seen some awesome builds on here, and seeing as this is my 1st car project, It can only get better from here with solid foundations.

 

[dynodan]

I spoke with Pure Motorsport earlier in the week, worth dropping them a call before you spend out on any engine bits tbh.

 

[Tomo3292]

I spoke with Pure Motorsport earlier in the week, worth dropping them a call before you spend out on any engine bits tbh.

I have beriefly looked at their website, and got a few things off there already like the spherical top mounts and strut brace which are quality products.

 

[Tomo3292]

Thought I would fit the loom tonight but that almost went up in smoke. So it's back to the drawing board on the wiring side of life.

Thinking of sourcing a new engine loom and interior loom and starting again to be honest.

Found multiple problems in the loom once I investigated

this one being the worst.
So the plan now is to get the car as mechanically sound as I want too with the right bits and leave the wiring to last!

 

[Tomo3292]

Jesus it's been way to long.... So an update is needed. Basically had a pi g hard think about what I want to do with the rebuild. The plan of attack is to use it at my local track Llandow as work commitments have been far to much these last 2 years.

So here goes anyway.
Engine has been pulled out stripped down and the rebuild has started.

The spec will be:
Standard bottom end
New main bearings
New big end bearings
New sump
New oil pump
New water pump
New thermostat
Full new gasket set
Samsco hoses
Cylinder head ported and polished
Matched inlets
197 cams possibly
New dephaser
New belt kit
172 exhaust system.

Most of it will be pretty standard apart from cylinder head as I'm after cheap reliability without going to mad.

Parts laid out prior to inspection.


Sump was thoroughly cleaned and washed in the parts washer before being given a nice fresh coat of VHT Silver.


Before and after pic of de gunk and VHT Silver.


Crank was sent off to a friend for measuring and the results were good enough to crack on. It will be highly polished before bearings go onto it.

Block given a little clean and de rusting before a fresh coat of red engine lacquer.


Oil pump stripped and cleaning. For small parts of silicone no doubt from the sealant.

Cylinder head stripped down cleaned and Inspected.

 

[Tomo3292]

Next up was stripping down the cylinder head 1st removed the cams cover and tappets springs valves.


Next up was removing the oil stem seals these proved to be a little tricky but got there eventually.

Then I set about starting to clean the cylinder head ports and Chambers.
Before

After

And lastly a bit more cleaning.


Left it at that tonight.

 

[Twingo 1??]

Looks good! Do you have a first rally in mind?

 

[Tomo3292]

Looke

Looks good! Do you have a first rally in mind?

Looked into it pal. Blue book and spoke to a few mates. Not worth it for me. So it's going to be a dedicated track day car now.

 

[Twingo 1??]

Looke

Looked into it pal. Blue book and spoke to a few mates. Not worth it for me. So it's going to be a dedicated track day car now.

That's a shame! Why have you decided against it being a rally car and doing some rallying?

 

[Tomo3292]

In other news.... The funds I saved up for the engine mods and gripper duff have been spunked on replacing the underfloor heating and new boiler in my house.

Managed to do all the electrical work myself but still set me back the best part of 6k.

Absolutely fuming to be honest, but at least I have hot water and central heating again. House has been so so cold these last 12 months.

 

[Tomo3292]

That's enough on the bricks and motor... Back to the car itself.

Decided to see what state the pistons were in next. And set about de coaking them.

Was greated by this...


So a full strip down... Lead to this

Conrod gudgeon pin and piston all removed for cleaning.

And the end result..... Being This. Was more than happy how they came up.


I'm now toying with the idea of getting the head ported and polished along with matched inlets and some 197 cams.

Would I see much difference in performance gents or am I better off spending my money else where.??

 

[Tomo3292]

Having worked away for quite a few months, I thought about selling up and moving into something different. That coupled with moving to a new house, didn't help things.

However I have been secretly buying parts over these last 11 months to comnence the new build

 

[Tomo3292]

Firstly I decided to strip the engine down and inspect every nut and bolt.

 

[Tomo3292]

Having done that pretty easily and with both engine and shell in a decent state I decent to source the follow g parts for the build.

New bottom end gasket set
New head gasket set
De coke and inspect pistons
Thoroughly clean block and repaint
Clean sump
New standard valves
Keyway crank sprocket
197 cams
Ported cylinder head
New cambelt set
New dephaser
New water pump
New main bearings
New arp rod bolts
New Big end bearings
New piston rings
New 75 deg thermostat

Newly refreshed jc5 129 gearbox

Pure motorsport sump
Proflex Black bushes all around

Decat 172 exhaust system

Ozf1 wheels and track tyres

 

[Tomo3292]

Having sourced the majority of the parts next I was lead to sorting out my garage. RALLY STYLE look.

 

[Tomo3292]

1st things 1st I de rusted the front calipers gdinded them back and sprayed them red. I then proceeded to replace the seals and pistons. Looking good in red.

 

[Tomo3292]

Next up was to sorted the horrid and battered Ozf1 wheels. I proceeded with sanding them back, 3 coats of primer, 3 coats of fluorescent green, 3 coats of lacquer