Longer lower balljoint...

[KevF182]

... anyone tried this?

I have pondered this for a while now, with the aim of extend track without using spacers. Should offer up other geometry benefits to go with it as well from my understanding. Anyone whos tracked 205 gti's past or present probably knows the benefits of the 309 wishbones and thats the effect I'm thinking could be possible by welding an extended plate onto the outer balljoint arm and re-drilling the holes to re-mount it further out, say...20mm.

Can it be done? I know chip's played around with the drillings on the arms themselves to get more castor and northloops developed a very trick balljoint correction kit for lowered cars (so clearly knows his onions when it comes to clio geo) but I'm not needing that level of sophisitication. I just think extending the balljoint out is a sounder way to increas track a wee bit and could give more steering feel through increased kingpin inclination.

Incidentally, does the clio have negative scrub radius or positive? Any figure for this?

Any ideas suspension experts?

 

[NorthloopCup]

In short mate - no it can't be done. You'd have to completely redesign the bottom ball joint and rest assured that would cost £££'s. The only possible option you've got is searching through a host of parts books from a factors and look to see if there's anything that's similar (possibly mk2 golf off the top of my head). It would need to keep the original pin diameter or be slightly larger (could be opened out in the hub but no more than 18-19mm) and offer a maximum track width increase of 10mm. Keep in mind though you may need to fit a spacer behind the cv joint (5mm no more) so as not to cause a premature failure of the driveshaft joints.

Would it it be worth it? Imo no it wouldn't as your not correcting the fundamental geometry, ie: roll centres and bump steer.

The clios run negative scrub as well and they've drive like a pile of s**t when spaced out to positive. All imo of course! I had 20mm hubcentrics on my cup and hated the way it drove. Looked the part but didn't deliver. Myself and James BIGASH *might* be doing some roll centre correctors that extend the ball joint down and retain the oe joint, but it would depend on interest levels tbh, and more importantly, if we can be arsed! Lol!

The best option for you mate would be to run some of the 10mm spacers that dan @M.A.D sells if you want to increase track width without upsetting the scrub geo.
Hope that helps.

 

[p@blo]

The clios run negative scrub as well and they've drive like a pile of s**t when spaced out to positive. All imo of course! I had 20mm hubcentrics on my cup and hated the way it drove.

Never really understood the fascination with fitting massive spacers.

Looked the part but didn't deliver

Because ricecar?

:lolup:

 

[Chip-mk1]

Northloop, not sure why you make it sound so hard to do what he wants, whats to stop him just lengthening the wishbone?
Seems a simple enough task to me for any half decent fabricator.

One thing to be aware of though Kev, if going as far as 20mm a side, is the shafts will end up too short no doubt.

 

[bozothenutter]

Myself and James BIGASH *might* be doing some roll centre correctors that extend the ball joint down and retain the oe joint, but it would depend on interest levels tbh, and more importantly, if we can be arsed! Lol!

As sortof a halfwayhouse to you trick uprights?
Would depend on price naturally....but interested.

 

[MG cup]

Its pretty easy to do simply if you use your head. You can extend track and adjust roll centres very simply with a bit of thick plate and some holes drilled in.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Its pretty easy to do simply if you use your head. You can extend track and adjust roll centres very simply with a bit of thick plate and some holes.

http://www.deemark.jp/images/golf5gtidetuning/IMG_8106.JPG

That hasnt altered the roll centre though, as they've just changed the distance from the pivot point to the arm, not the pivot point to the hub.
And as its only the two pivot points that matter, theyve made no actual difference to the geometry.

Schoolboy error if they were attempting to correct the roll centre!

 

[MG cup]

I fail to see how that hasn't changed the roll centre and the track width?

its changed the wishbone angle and how far out the wheel sits without using a hub spacer!!

 

[Chip-mk1]

I fail to see how that hasn't changed the roll centre and the track width?

its changed the wishbone angle and how far out the wheel sits without using a hub spacer!!

It hasnt changed the actual wishbone angle at all mate.
Its changed the angle the metal of the old wishbone sat at, but the point between the two pivots (which is ALL that matters when measuring wishbone angle) is still the same.

Go and do the maths


(it has spaced it out though, but I didnt argue against that point)

 

[Chip-mk1]

As Ive always had you down as one of the few people on here who isnt actually dead from the neckup, Im going to try and have faith in my original analysis of you and help you out with this complex technical drawing that I have created for you, showing the pivot points on two arms, one with a spaced upwards balljoint and one standard.
(length difference removed for the purpose of this discussion, the length will actually have a tiny effect on angle, but thats nothing to do with the thick spacer like you think it is)

 

[Chip-mk1]

And just to really help, imagine this one too:

Also with identical geometry between the inner and outer pivot points.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Flol@ bent to f**k.

 

[MG cup]

I do see what your saying but it is still an improvement over standard. That spacer will give static camber and track width which you agree with but it will also make the strut go positive camber in compression before it goes negative due to the wishbone arc.

A ball joint extender with the ball joint in the original mounting place is the easiest solution to do correction cheaply and keep everything oem but you could knock them pictured spacers above in your shed which makes them very easy for some improvement.

Edit: and to answer the op, my pictures are the easiest way to make longer ball joints while also going someway towards correcting the roll centre and poor wishbone angle when lowered.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I do see what your saying but it is still an improvement over standard. That spacer will give static camber and track width which you agree with but it will also make the strut go positive camber in compression before it goes negative due to the wishbone arc.

Its ONLY the length distance that helps, the spacing down will NOT change when it goes postive camber in compression, just because the metal part of the wishbone now doesnt point up as soon does NOT change the fact that the height of the inner and outer joints (ALL that matters) doesnt change by the addition of the vertical spacing.

You need to think harder mate, you are letting the angle the wishbone appears to be sat at to distract you from the actual angle between the two pivots!

A ball joint extender with the ball joint in the original mounting place is the easiest solution to do correction cheaply and keep everything oem but you could knock them pictured spacers above in your shed which makes them very easy for some improvement.

They will NOT help by being thick mate, spacing it out on a flat spacer would be exactly the same, they are just heavier!

Edit: and to answer the op, my pictures are the easiest way to make longer ball joints while also going someway towards correcting the roll centre and poor wishbone angle when lowered.

I cant believe a bright guy like you isnt understanding this even with my help, I can only apologise if Im not explaining it well enough.

But just try it with a practical experiment if you cant just reason it with logic like I can, get two bits of metal, one bent and one straight, with the same length between the ends and then move then in an arc, and you will see the ends move exactly the same.

Sadly mspaint wont let me rotate 10 degree or I would show you, lol.

 

[p@blo]

Surely you must see it Morgan?

 

[MG cup]

Aye I see what your saying, draw a line through the two pivot points and the wishbone angle is irrelevant, the wishbone could be 'v' 'w' or any conceivable shape and it would still make no difference. My theory wasn't quite correct in that sense but it still lengthens the wishbone essentially as per OP.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ps

look at the green arm I drew. What's its wishbone angle? I made I bent to take away the temptation you have to just look at the big flat bit when deciding on angle.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ignore that. Hadnt seen your reply. Glad you got there in the end with why it won't change roll centre.

 

[MG cup]

This will though and keep everything oem. So easy to make too with some round bar.

 

[Chip-mk1]

This will though and keep everything oem. So easy to make too with some round bar.

View attachment 106155

yes that's perfect. I'd have those quite happily
in fact for what I want for the mrs car it would be better than the way James/mark has done it in many ways.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Never really understood the fascination with fitting massive spacers.



Because ricecar?

:lolup:

I only fitted them because the front wheels just look lost in the wheel arches when they're lowered! Drove it maybe 100 miles and tried different geo settings to try and overcome the change from neg to pos scrub, but all to no avail. Removed and sold on! Oh definitely because ricecar mate! Flol!

Northloop, not sure why you make it sound so hard to do what he wants, whats to stop him just lengthening the wishbone?
Seems a simple enough task to me for any half decent fabricator.

Yep your correct he could get a fab shop to lengthen the wishbone no problem at all. The point I was trying to make was there's no real gain as your not correcting the roll centres or bump steer so why bother? If you take into account the cost to modify the original wishbone vs banging a set of 10mm spacers on it, it's not cost effective either. I wouldn't want to extend standard driveshafts over 10mm either tbh. Abs sensor positioning is also something that needs careful consideration too as the exciter teeth would be nowhere near the sensor ( unless it's a cup or pure track/race car that is )
But that's why I put imo as that's exactly what it was/is - in my opinion.

As sortof a halfwayhouse to you trick uprights?
Would depend on price naturally....but interested.

Yes mate that's it. Need to test it to be sure it can cope, but as per my original post - need to be bothered/interested enough to make a start on them.

 

[NorthloopCup]

yes that's perfect. I'd have those quite happily
in fact for what I want for the mrs car it would be better than the way James/mark has done it in many ways.

That's what I've already got chip, but it's more a case of if they will still elongate the bottom ball joint hole. I've had quite a few sets of hubs delivered to me already that show signs of that happening even from the standard joint!

That kit we've done is obviously more radical to overcome any issues.

 

[p@blo]

This will though and keep everything oem. So easy to make too with some round bar.

View attachment 106155

What are these off Morgan - did you fab them up?

 

[Chip-mk1]

What are these off Morgan - did you fab them up?

They are quite popular with the VW boys.

 

[MG cup]

That's what I've already got chip, but it's more a case of if they will still elongate the bottom ball joint hole. I've had quite a few sets of hubs delivered to me already that show signs of that happening even from the standard joint!

That kit we've done is obviously more radical to overcome any issues.

All you need to do is flatten the hub/extender meeting face when using my pictured extenders. Exactly what you have done with the fat pin in your kit

The VW boys still weld the pins to the hub as they get ovaling of the hub using your theory which I have said to you before.

What are these off Morgan - did you fab them up?

No that's just a generic image I found but that is the simplest type you could make in terms of machining time.

VW, Jap and 4x4 lads have been using this type for years.

 

[Chip-mk1]

All you need to do is flatten the hub/extender meeting face when using my pictured extenders. Exactly what you have done with the fat pin in your kit

There is a lot more to it than that actually in terms of how they locate, a lot of thought has gone into that kit

It is all stuff that could be done on one of these types too though of course.

The VW boys still weld the pins to the hub as they get ovaling of the hub using your theory which I have said to you before.

That seems a good option if they are fairly cheap anyway (which there is no reason they shouldnt be even in a decent grade), I'd be inclined to do it that way TBH

 

[NorthloopCup]

All you need to do is flatten the hub/extender meeting face when using my pictured extenders. Exactly what you have done with the fat pin in your kit

If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it mate.

 

[KevF182]

Thanks for all the opinions chaps, appreciated. Thanks for clarifying that clios have negative scrub, I'd hoped/assumed they do, as most FWD do, and that confirms why I want to try moving the ball joint out a bit. The issue of driveshafts is one I thought would be pointed out. The 205 owners typically use 309 shafts to match the 309 lower arms when they do this, some never bothered and reported failures/knocks but others got away with it on the 205 shafts. I'd imaging there is a limit but I don't know how much you could move the clio hub out without the shaft being long enough. It's probably the biggest reason I can see for not doing it, but it might not be an issue at all???

Northloop - I know why correcting the roll centre is desirable, but that's not what I'm wanting to do here. Its clearly not easy to move the outer pivot point lower down and that's why the kit/mods required to do it are not commonplace on clios.

What I'm interested in is extending the pivot outwards a wee bit, which moves the whole hub out. I dissagree that increasing track width in this way is comparable to using spacers though. As has been pointed out, the way spacers move scrub radius in the positive direction is exactly why I have never used them. That's I'm wanting to extend the outer balljoint instead. Doing this keeps the scrub radius pretty much the same. Infact, if you correct camber back to a similar value after (at the strut bolts) it should actually create marginally more negative scrub, which I also consider desirable (If this assumption isn't right, please do correct me).

I guess I need to have a go. The probelm is I don't weld myself so would have to work with someone else to try and achieve what I wanted. So, Chip - do you think it's easier to lengthen the lower arm rather than the balljoint part???

 

[Chip-mk1]

I guess I need to have a go. The probelm is I don't weld myself so would have to work with someone else to try and achieve what I wanted. So, Chip - do you think it's easier to lengthen the lower arm rather than the balljoint part???

Yes, and more importantly its far easier to get a replacement part in future if the balljoint fails.

One what I have done it before in the past myself, is just to get a thick bit of mild steel (10mm or so) and drill 4 holes in it, two in the original place, and two in the new place, and then just bolt it onto the wishbone as an adaptor.

Trouble is, doing 10mm like that is quite hard, as the bolt hole size is M12 IIRC!

You could do 15mm though, but that might be chancing your luck on the shafts!

 

[KevF182]

Great advice, as always. I'ts something I'll look at over the winter. I'm intreaged.

It was pointed out somewhere above that the abs pickup might be a problem. I can't see why this would be??? Could someone add any more on that?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Not a great picture but if you look at the balljoint on the wishbone on this setup I did on the rear of my nova, you can see it spaced out with a plate like I mentioned:

(not the rose jointed but in the foreground of the picture, the slightly out of focus balljoint in the background)

 

[MG cup]

Great advice, as always. I'ts something I'll look at over the winter. I'm intreaged.

It was pointed out somewhere above that the abs pickup might be a problem. I can't see why this would be??? Could someone add any more on that?

The cv joint has to be hard against the hub or no more away than the thickness of the exciter ring or the sensor simply won't have anything to read.

Look into 172 cup shafts if you want to start playing, they are longer than yours.

 

[Chip-mk1]

The cv joint has to be hard against the hub or no more away than the thickness of the exciter ring or the sensor simply won't have anything to read.

Look into 172 cup shafts if you want to start playing, they are longer than yours.

Or just fit a cup subframe and shafts instead and it will get wider anyway with none of this drama?

LOL

 

[KevF182]

The cv joint has to be hard against the hub or no more away than the thickness of the exciter ring or the sensor simply won't have anything to read.

Look into 172 cup shafts if you want to start playing, they are longer than yours.

Yes, the out joint has to be against the bearing. I've no plans to space it out in any way, I hoped the shaft has enough movement within itself, if I'm making any sense?

 

[MG cup]

Yeah you might get away with 10mm a side on a lowered car. The shaft yoke is the word your looking for!

 

[Fraser.J.]

I fitted a cup subframe, but I still run ph1 shafts as its low

 

[Ph1 Tom]

I fitted a cup subframe, but I still run ph1 shafts as its low

This is what I intend to do. However it seems quite a challenge to get a cheap cup subframe.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

That's what I've already got chip, but it's more a case of if they will still elongate the bottom ball joint hole. I've had quite a few sets of hubs delivered to me already that show signs of that happening even from the standard joint!

That kit we've done is obviously more radical to overcome any issues.

Interested to see pics of the ovaling if you've got any?!

 

[NorthloopCup]

Interested to see pics of the ovaling if you've got any?!

Sorry mate don't have any to hand. It burrs the edge and creates a ridge. Very obvious once you see it.

 

[Chip-mk1]

This is what I intend to do. However it seems quite a challenge to get a cheap cup subframe.

piece of cake to modify the standard subframe. Just weld the hole up and red or weld on new tabs with the hole further out if you run out of material.