Lumpy idle / tick over on 182

[Davyboy888]

Are Clio 182's generally lumpy when idling ? I've done a load of work on mine, I think it was lumpy on tick over before I started the work but can't remember. It idles at around 860-900 rpm. It's absolutely fine all the way through the rev range, pulls really well and the [new] dephaser is doing its thing. There are no error codes being reported. As an aside I replaced the MAP sensor as it didn't seem to be reporting a pressure alteration... but the new [Renault] one is now. It drops to around 500mB on idle.

 

[Coops Mk1]

I believe on standard out the factory map yes they do idle a little lumpy

 

[Davyboy888]

Thanks for that Coops. I'll try and post a video link to mine a little later to see what you [and others] think. It just seems to idle a lot lumpier than any other road car I've had... more like a racing car than a road car.

 

[Davyboy888]

Here's a vid of it today. Tell me what you think. The exhaust sounds a lot quieter on the vid than it does in the flesh.

 

[Bear Head]

That does sound quite lumpy. Does it settle down at all when it's warm? I wouldn't be too worried though, just seems maybe 10% lumpier than usual lol

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

 

[Davyboy888]

Thanks for this. Unfortunately it doesn't settle down when warm. It's like that whether cold or warm. Any idea what might be causing it ? I've had it on a live diag and most things look normal... and as I said, it drives absolutely fine.

 

[Nitro182]

Run some decent high octane fuel through it , I. E shell nitro stuff .

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[Davyboy888]

Thanks for that advice Nitro... will fill the tank with it and see how it goes. A friend suggested I try some STP petrol injection cleaner too... what do you think ?

I guess if neither of those two work, I probably need to think about new injectors ? I replaced one of the injectors that was faulty, but that had issued an error code. Would injectors [not issuing fault codes] exhibit this type of effect on tick over ?

Again, really appreciate everyone's help/advice here.

 

[MRBILLYUK]

They are quite lumpy on idle , but that sounds lumpier than normal . Once fully warmed up it should idle around 700 +/- 50 rpm, thats according to Autodata and thats about right for mine . Maybe some sort of air leak ? I'm no expert though .

 

[Davyboy888]

It's idling higher than that but on the Modis scanner, when the engine is off, it says that the target idle is 869rpm (!) An air leak could be a problem... wondering where to start with that one though.

 

[bloke]

that's running like a bag of crap to say the least. they should have a nice smooth idle.

 

[James]

Check the brake servo vacuum pipe mate. It's one weak area for a leak you can rule out.

 

[Davyboy888]

I haven't been able to check the integrity of the pipe by sight all the way to the servo because it seems to go down back of a heat shield or something. However I pulled the pipe off the end of the throttle body and the revs increased a fair bit. It probably indicates that the pipe's OK. I pulled the other small rubber pipe off the end of the throttle body and that led to a small increase in revs, so that's probably OK too.

 

[MRBILLYUK]

When you say you've done alot of work on yours , what work exactly ? Have you had the inlet manifold off / changed the spark plugs ? They can leak from the little donut seal underneath. Usually when you see somebody who has a leak the revs will be alot higher than what you're experiencing.

 

[Davyboy888]

I've replaced the cambelt, dephaser pulley, dephaser solenoid seal, water pump, auxiliary belt and spark plugs. Yes the inlet manifold has been off.

I found two links on youTube that seem to be exhibiting very similar symptoms to mine. One's a 172 and the other's a Megane R26. The Megan owner seemed to think it was injectors.
The problem is that it's not throwing any error codes from the injectors or elsewhere. Is it possible for the injectors to have a problem and not issue an error code ?

 

[MRBILLYUK]

Lots and lots of threads on injectors lately . I guess all the 1*2's are coming to that age / mileage were they are starting to fail . You usually get the engine management light on if it's an injector fault . You used NGK PFR6E-10 spark plugs ? 1*2's don't seem to like other makes .

 

[Davyboy888]

I used Denso PK20PR11 plugs. I had an injector fail before I started all my work. It did throw a fault code. The car was running on three cylinders as a result, probably because the ECU shut off the injector. A prior owner also had an injector replaced in the past. I was just wondering whether the injectors exhibit problems like I'm experiencing [i.e. dirtiness etc...] before they throw fault codes and shut down ?

 

[bloke]

start from scratch on it, check plugs and leads etc. plug caps can split up and arc out.

then quick compresssion test and chuck it back together. check resistance on the injectors. clean throttle body (fiver says it's minging)

run it and check live data from cold start, chances are lambda is shagged as well from how it sounds, you may well need to scope it to double check it's switching ok though.

 

[Davyboy888]

Thanks for everything here Bloke
- Throttle body is clean. That was the first thing I suspected a few days ago.
- Will look at the plugs/leads again... it does pull really well without any misfires when it's not idling though which may mean the electrical end of things is OK.
- I'll check the resistance on the injectors
- I did a live data test from cold a couple of days ago and couldn't see anything out of the ordinary on it.
- The Lamda sensor was changed a couple of years ago by the previous owner - have the receipt - I suppose it could have failed again. I'll have to see if my friend's Modis can scope this.

Again, really appreciate your help here.

 

[bloke]

what leads are on it?

 

[Davyboy888]

I think they're the original leads, they are grouped together and have that sort of meshing around them just before they meet the plug caps.

 

[bloke]

squeeze the end of the plug caps and see what they do, don't be surprised if they split and fall apart.

also before you take the upper inlet off check none of them are trapped under it.

 

[Davyboy888]

Good points... I'll give that a go after the GP and report back.

 

[Davyboy888]

Just took the inlet manifold off and the leads and plug caps all look fine [see photo]

I'm just wondering about that seal on the underside of the manifold [see photos]. I took it out and it looks OK... it's flattened a bit but still proud off the aluminium. Not sure if that and/or the manifold gasket should have been replaced when I did the work. I feel I'm clutching at straws here though. I would have thought I could hear air whistling or hissing from these places if they were leaking.
As an aside I did the screwdriver test on the injectors and all four of them are clicking. It means they're opening and closing but of course there could be dirt/debris etc... reducing their effectiveness that I wouldn't know about.
This is frustrating

 

[bloke]

had the plugs out?

 

[Davyboy888]

Ya the plugs were replaced [see above]. Or do you mean did I take them out again this afternoon ?

 

[bloke]

sorry missed the bit about the plugs been changed.

 

[LukeSi]

Clios are very funny about what plugs you use. Could be worth getting some OEM NGKs to see if it makes a difference.

 

[N4TH4N]

Had the exact same issue. New leads and was fine. Go to a scrappy as i did and replace them. For £5 worth a shot.

 

[Davyboy888]

That's interesting Nathan... and did it rev and pull OK ? In other words it was just problematic when idling ?

@LukeSi It had a set of Bosch double platinums in it before I did the big overhaul...and it was fine with them. I suppose I could try putting them back in to see if it makes a difference.

Again guys, really appreciate all your help here... I've spent a lot on overhauling it and it's frustrating to have it like this afterwards

 

[N4TH4N]

That's interesting Nathan... and did it rev and pull OK ? In other words it was just problematic when idling ?

@LukeSi It had a set of Bosch double platinums in it before I did the big overhaul...and it was fine with them. I suppose I could try putting them back in to see if it makes a difference.

Again guys, really appreciate all your help here... I've spent a lot on overhauling it and it's frustrating to have it like this afterwards

No in all honesty but sounded like that

 

[Davyboy888]

An interesting article here from another site. This guy seems to point the finger at timing. It's something that's crossed my mind too, since I've just done the timing belt. However, in my defence, the cam timing tool slotted into its groves at the end of the camshafts, albeit with a little encouragement, with the crank pegged. Has anyone on here experienced these symptoms after having done the timing belt AND been able to rectify it by reviewing/resetting the timing ? If needs be I'll rip the thing apart again and attempt to set the timing from scratch, but I'm scratching my head as to what I would do differently from before ?

"One of the most common reasons for a clio 172/182 to idle poorly is the cam timing is slightly out.
It is a speed vs density fueling algorithm on these cars not a mass air flow based one like on most modern cars so is a relatively unusual problem and fairly unique to have that in combination with also having fully floating cam pulleys on the same engine like on these cars so most mechanics wont have a clue about it.
So if you have something that makes a significant change to volumetric efficiency at idle like incorrect cam timing it means that the engine displaces a different amount of fuel per rotation of the engine than the data in the ECU has been programmed to expect.
As a consequence it delivers an incorrect fuel mixture and makes the car run lumpy.

When the car warms up the ECU then starts to reference the lambda sensor and switches over from the open loop fueling tables to the closed loop strategy and corrects itself in real time to compensate for the differences between VE and what it is programmed for on its open loop tables.

But people STILL insist on using shitty backstreet garages who dont understand the very specific requirements of these engines cause its a few quid cheaper than a specialist and then they wonder why they get problems!

Wear and tear can have a similar effect or can exaggerate the effect if its combined with slightly off cam timing.

If the problem is just down to wear and tear where the Ve drops as the rings get worn and dont seal as well and valve seal being imperfect compounds the problem then a remap (please not by some cheap and cheerful “chip tuner” with a slave unit who will make it worse as they wont understand the effect of adaptions on long term fuel trims etc, go to a proper renaultsprot specialist mapper) can often provide a suitable workaround for the problem, if all else fails then a slight increase in idle speed (like the RS Tuner remap introduces) is another way to solve it."





Having done a bit of [soul] searching this morning, I also found this note on another site. They seem to be highlighting issues with the dephaser solenoid. It's also timing related.
"The solenoid valve is closed at rest. It authorises the passage of oil to control the phase shifter in line with the operation of the engine: - if the engine speed is between 1,800 and 6,500 rpm, - if the throttle potentiometer is not at no-load NOTE: if the solenoid valve is jammed in the open position this will result in an unstable idle and the pressure in the manifold at idle will be too high. This affects the mechanical timing of your inlet valves and the other mechanical components: pistons/exhaust valves. The result will affect the volumetric efficiency of the engine, hence a change to the fuel and ignition maps. The solenoid only opens or closes as detailed above and it is not continuously variable."

 

[bloke]

are you 100% sure the crank pin was in the timing slot? it's easy to miss that and get it in the balance drilling.

 

[Davyboy888]

I know exactly what you mean about that other slot. I spent quite a while fiddling with that to be as sure as I could be that I had the crankpin in the slot and not one of the balance drillings. I had a screwdriver down the plughole to monitor TDC while I was doing it.
I'm getting that sickly feeling that I'm gonna have to go through the pain of opening it up again and go back over the timing procedure. The thing that's perplexing me about a possible timing problem is that it runs fine all the way through the rev range. It's just idling that's an issue. I kinda thought if it was out on timing there'd be problems elsewhere as well as on idle.

 

[bloke]

they can be funny to say the least, this one ran fine and pulled well...

did you check on the flywheel to see if that was lined up? screwdriver gives you a rough idea on tdc but the drilling must only be a degree or two out.

 

[Davyboy888]

Could you get the tool into the groves there ? Mine was a little closer than that but I had still to jiggle and force the tool to lodge it in the grooves. The reason I wasn't too perturbed about doing that was because I had to do that initially before I removed the original belt.

Regarding the flywheel, I'm not sure what you mean there. I didn't do anything at all there in terms of finding TDC. Is there something I ought to have done ?
In terms of the timing, is there any way of checking this via a live data run ? I don't think the engine has a cam position sensor, so I'm guessing it's only possible to do by physically checking everything again.

 

[bloke]

horse shoe was miles off to say the least.

you can check map at idle (not sure on the exact figure you should see though sorry) there s a window on the bellhousing and four timing marks and a mark on the flywheel, line it up with the '0' and double check the horseshoe fits in the cams properly.

 

[Davyboy888]

It looks like I'm going to have to pull it apart and check the timing again I didn't realise there was a window on the bellhousing and timing marks there. I had been using that Renault manual PDF 3286a and there was no mention of it there. So there are four numbered timing marks on the block and I line the grove on the flywheel up with mark number '0' ?
When you say check map at idle, you mean the manifold air pressure ? Mine is reading around 500mB or so at idle but hopefully I can find out what the precise figure needs to be.

Again, mega thanks for all your help here... really appreciate it.

 

[oreA]

In view of all the threads on here suggesting that only oem NGK plugs should be used, is it not worth considering changing to these first?

I'm not posting through any kind of personal experience btw, it's just I read the forums a lot and this subject keeps cropping up time and time again.

 

[bloke]

In view of all the threads on here suggesting that only oem NGK plugs should be used, is it not worth considering changing to these first?

I'm not posting through any kind of personal experience btw, it's just I read the forums a lot and this subject keeps cropping up time and time again.

they run fine on the correct bosch/denso plugs as well. for some reason though some places list the super 4 bosch plug for them and they don't run right with them in.