Lumpy idle / tick over on 182

[R3k1355]

He even checked with his boss - must have been special, was wearing a RenaultSport coat :wink: and he was the one that definitively said "not for the general public"

Ok. finally found a dealer out in the countryside here that would sell me the tools.

Perhaps just general tossbags then?

As if they'd tell you "not for the general public" - get over yourself you total knob!

 

[jinjur]

Seems that way friend.
The country boys were a different thing completely, couldn't be more helpful.

 

[jinjur]

Hype.

Now......first thick question. I ordered it. I don't know why.
But can someone tell me what the extra cog (0000150901) is for? Bear in mind, I wont be taking the belt of or messing with the tension.

 

[jinjur]

More questions...........

1.) Given that I suspect that the horse shoe is not going to go in once the crank is locked at tdc. Will the pulley locking tool be sufficient to hold everything while i loosen the intake pulley?
2.) Do i need to make any consideration for the position of the innards of the dephaser when I am bringing the intake cam into line? Or is that tough enough to not move while i do this?

I am sure there will be many MANY more before I even open the bonnet

J

 

[jinjur]

Ok.....I see from the top end manual that the extra cog looks to clear the lip of the exhaust pulley. ok on that.

Question.
1.) The manual references tool MOT1509. I have seemingly bought tool MOT1801. Have a been a stupid boy?

J

 

[jinjur]

Pinging @Davyboy888 @bloke @fleabay and @Turbo steve

Hoping to get guidance before apocalypse weekend here :|

Admins, would I be better spinning this into a separate thread? I thought seeing as it seems super identical to Davy's it might be prudent to keep my waffle in here

J

 

[jinjur]

So yeah...................ummm...................
Locked with the proper Renault pin......slowly from juuuuuust before tdc until the green/line was in line with the line on the bell housing.


And went to slip the horse shoe effortlessly in and

So......

blx

 

[bloke]

could be the angle but that's past tdc on the mark.

 

[jinjur]

TDC is the line with the "0" at it is it not?

 

[jinjur]

Sorry @bloke........I should have given it a wee clean first. I havent moved it btw.

 

[bloke]

yup, but that looks like it's gone past the mark though.

 

[bloke]

ah, yeah, was just the angle of the pic.

 

[jinjur]

No bud.....I had made a line in the dirt by mistake trying to clean the MAIN line with a screwdriver.

DOH!

So.....deffo at tdc then. Horse shoe - no chance.

Stripping time. Going to just try for the inlet?

 

[bloke]

just crack them both off, may well find it's tensioned wrong as well :wink:

if you wanted i suppose you could try just doing the inlet though.

 

[jinjur]

just crack them both off, may well find it's tensioned wrong as well :wink:

if you wanted i suppose you could try just doing the inlet though.

Stumped last night as my 14mm hex was missing ffs. New one bought and ready to go today.

Managed to get the butchered aux tensioner bolt replaced though so at least I got that done.

Getting the feeling that the exhaust cam is out a fraction too. Will see once I get the inlet freed up.

In terms of what i can get away with without pulling the aux belt and crank pulleys off.... if I have to loosen the exhaust pulley.....will the belt lose its tension?

In my head....the belt as a whole is under tension...even with the pulleys loosened.....is that correct?

Also...the guide mentions "horsing" the pulley tool gears up.....how horsed up is horsed?

Finally.....can someone let me know the torques for the pulley bolts and dephaser seal for reassembly? The manual references DaNM........is that different to NM?

Sorry, brain farting here.

J

 

[bloke]

belt keeps it's tension. you've got to drop the top alternator mount to get the belt cover off but can leave rest of aux belt in place.

not sure about horsing? don't think i've ever read the guide? will have a mooch at it...

 

[bloke]

autocorrect horsed instead of tourqued?

 

[jinjur]

autocorrect horsed instead of tourqued?

Lol.
No bud.....some member did a word document and mentioned "horsing" the pulley locking bolts up really tight.....just trying to work out if there is an official figure
J

 

[Ol’ Tarby]

Lol.
No bud.....some member did a word document and mentioned "horsing" the pulley locking bolts up really tight.....just trying to work out if there is an official figure
J

I think horsing may be the equivalent of FT....

 

[jinjur]

I think horsing may be the equivalent of FT....

Lol.....one unit of FT

Rodger that!

 

[jinjur]

Right. That was awful. Anyway.......got it timed and checked many times. Struggled to get the elusive horse shoe slipping in....seem to be some rough edges on the cams where the tool goes. Looked like it should go in but it rarely did......even when everything was locked up.

Anyway.......it goes in with a bit of a heave.

Started and ran seemingly smoother.....but perhaps I wanted it to. Not sure. Doubting myself a bit.

Waiting for it to cool and gonna check timing again and to get a pic (forgot)

Down side is my MAP reading which is still aroind 500.

J

 

[jinjur]

Hmm. It actually looks spot on. Only a minor jiggle to do this

 

[bloke]

as long as you don't have to heave the horseshoe to get it in will be fine.

 

[flebay]

Down side is my MAP reading which is still aroind 500.

The Renault manual states Idle manifold pressure - 320 to 500 mbars

 

[jinjur]

After timing and 2 rotations of the crank with all the tools removed, I re-locked at tdc

Will this do?

 

[jinjur]

And if this means my timing is good, I still have a MAP value of ~500.
I appreciate that the manual states up to 500 @fleabay but I have seen an awful lot of members sitting at 360 etc.
Is this perhaps wear and tear of the MAP sensor, injectors etc?
J

 

[bloke]

spot on, you are now officially a specialist :wink:

 

[R3k1355]

So the horse shoe slips in fine and it's locked with the proper locking pin?

Have you replaced the map sensor and injectors?

 

[jinjur]

spot on, you are now officially a specialist :wink:

LOL! It literally took me the whole weekend bud......I had it timed up (or so i thought) about 8 times, no joke.........even had it back together and running and split it all apart again. Hell of a job to be honest. But......at least I have had a punt at "THE JOB I NEVER WANTED TO DO" and seem to have come out unscathed. :smiley:

I can see that unless you were absolutely on point with it every time, it would be hard to charge an amount in labour that wouldn't shaft you.

I can also see why some general mechanics will get it close, but not right. I doubt many would have went as far as I did to have it as close to perfect as I did.

So the horse shoe slips in fine and it's locked with the proper locking pin?
Have you replaced the map sensor and injectors?

yeha.....pin in (proper tdc) and horse shoe literally slips in and slides about.

Haven't touched the map sensor or injectors buddy....spent that budget on the Renault timing tools *sigh* but worth it IMO. Still noticed a slight hesitation on pick up today but I am still scared to gun it. even though I used Fred(tm) torque figures on the dephaser bolt :smiley:

I guess they are the next port of call depending on cost etc. Any thoughts on which one to pick first?

J

 

[bloke]

do it a few times and it becomes easier, load more times and it becomes even quicker to do.

 

[R3k1355]

I guess they are the next port of call depending on cost etc. Any thoughts on which one to pick first?

If you don't like the readings from your map sensor I'd do that first, but a new set of injectors does make a significant difference to knackered old ones.

Bite the bullet and stick both on a credit card, do em together and enjoy the improvement

 

[jinjur]

do it a few times and it becomes easier, load more times and it becomes even quicker to do.

Fk sake man..........I never want to do that again lol but I do agree, after a few times I knew the steps and was getting better.

If you don't like the readings from your map sensor I'd do that first, but a new set of injectors does make a significant difference to knackered old ones.

Bite the bullet and stick both on a credit card, do em together and enjoy the improvement :smiley:

If I had room on my cards.....I would probably do just that fella. Have to be a bit measured these days

J

 

[Davyboy888]

@jinjur So sorry for not dipping in here... notifications are no longer coming through on eMail to me and I was really busy with work. You seem to have done everything right and if your MAP reading is 400-500, you're fine. The F4R is a lumpy motor but there's certainly a difference between 'timing out' lumpiness and 'normal' lumpiness. It's a truly awful job to do and thinking back on it, if I were to do it again, I'd drop the motor and replace the clutch also. A huge well done though and welcome to 'the club' !

 

[jinjur]

Hey bud, no bother at all....fully understand.
Happy enough now, still the odd wee hesitation and misfire etc so I know there is more to do but at least I know that the big job is done.
Cheers for letting me piggy back your thread buddy
J

 

[Davyboy888]

In terms of MAP sensors etc... I've swapped the MAP sensor a few times and it's not made any difference. You can pick them up second hand on eBay for about a tenner, so it's a cheap thing to try out and 'eliminate from your inquiries' if you're minded to do so. It's probably not worth it though.
From my own experience the injectors either work or they don't... and if they don't the ECU tends to switch them off and you'll know all about it. I wouldn't recommend replacing them 'to see if things improve' as it's just too expensive. An alternative may be to try a bottle of fuel injector cleaner in the tank, it's not that expensive. I've bought a bottle of it but haven't yet tried it out, so if you wanna wait until I do so I can give you the verdict. I think my Clio is probably as good as I'm gonna get it right now though.

 

[Vaughan]

My 172 has exactly the same idle problem, belts were changed 12 months ago by a "specialist" (was first thing I had done to it, cost me almost 2x the purchase price of the car). I have since changed plugs, injectors, leads, coil pack, crank sensor, speedo sensor, cleaned throttle body. Still idling rough and hesitating on acceleration.
It seems to me that if the timing is out, the horseshoe won't fit correctly when the crank is locked at TDC. (If it did fit, the timing wouldn't be out.) I'm guessing the process needs to be:

1) lock crank at TDC
2) loosen cam pulleys
3) align the cams and insert the horseshoe
4) tighten the pulleys

Thanks.

 

[Davyboy888]

Ya it sounds like you've the same problem as the rest of us ! Your procedure's more or less right. Do check the position in the window on the bell housing though and make sure you use the Renault tool to lock the pulleys and NOTHING ELSE !

Given that so many people are suffering from this having had it done by specialists, I wonder is there something else awry. I did mine myself, so I've no-one to blame other than myself. I put mine down to the fact I was unable to get the pulleys fully locked because I was using an aftermarket pulley holder rather than the Renault OEM kit... and I do remember the belt 'buckling up' as I tightened the pulley. Could that the at the root of all of these ? I wonder are these 'specialists' using dodgy holders ? Or is that the belts stretch after a while and the timing [being so sensitive] just goes off ?

 

[Vaughan]

Funny thing is, apart from the hesitation off idle, the car is averaging about 7 litres per 100 km fuel consumption (ie, really good) and drivers very nicely. On track this car hits ~150 km/h at the end of the straight at Queensland Raceway, compared to ~160 in my other 172.

I suspect that most F4Rs are driving around with badly set timing.

One thing, in post #142 the horseshoe fits in the slots nicely but it hasn't been bolted into the head: the horseshoe has a bolt hole and the head has a thread to accept it. Maybe it needs to be bolted down tight too to prevent movement.

I'm doing my own belts next time, I don't think I could do a worse job TBH. I just changed the rhs drive shaft myself and am doing the front strut top mounts this week. Very satisfying and quite easy to work on.

I dunno what Clio RS are worth in the UK but here in Australia you can pick up a nice 172 with 140,000 km on the odo for about AUD$5,000 -- add a couple of thousand dollars more for 182s. To put this into perspective the going rate for a timing belt change at a non-dealer is about $1,200.

 

[R3k1355]

Ratty 172's are in the AUD$1000-AUD$1600 region, 182's in similar condition are not far off that.

Good condition cars have a broader price range with a decent 182 around AUD$4000-$5000

 

[Davyboy888]

@Vaughan In post 142 he's just slotting it in to show us that it went easy. You're right, it would be bolted in when you're doing the job.
In terms of car performance, mine drove absolutely fine with the timing out. It pulled fine through the rev range and topped out nicely too. All the perceptible problems were at idle.