Lumpy idle / tick over on 182

[jinjur]

It looks like I'm going to have to pull it apart and check the timing again 😧 I didn't realise there was a window on the bellhousing and timing marks there. I had been using that Renault manual PDF 3286a and there was no mention of it there. So there are four numbered timing marks on the block and I line the grove on the flywheel up with mark number '0' ?
When you say check map at idle, you mean the manifold air pressure ? Mine is reading around 500mB or so at idle but hopefully I can find out what the precise figure needs to be.

Again, mega thanks for all your help here... really appreciate it.

Very interested in seeing how you get on Davy........mine is idling IDENTICALLY to yours.

I think mine is belt related (changed last year) but I am unable to fix this myself unlike you. Would be keen to see if your work remedies the idle as I was about to start buying injectors etc.

Keep us posted
J

 

[Davyboy888]

Thanks for the post on here J. Don't do anything on yours until we see how I get on. If it does prove to be timing, then I'll write something up so that it can appear prominently for everyone. I'm planning on doing the work towards the end of May. The car's driveable at the moment - as I'm sure your's probably is too - but a real bone shaker when it's idling in traffic etc...
I might shoot a bit more video for the before bit in anticipation of success afterwards Wish me luck

 

[jinjur]

Thanks for the post on here J. Don't do anything on yours until we see how I get on. If it does prove to be timing, then I'll write something up so that it can appear prominently for everyone. I'm planning on doing the work towards the end of May. The car's driveable at the moment - as I'm sure your's probably is too - but a real bone shaker when it's idling in traffic etc...
I might shoot a bit more video for the before bit in anticipation of success afterwards :smile: Wish me luck :smile:

Hey bud,

Yeah.....sounds like a plan. I will hopefully grab a vid of mine tonight so we can both agree that they are the same and I will hang fire on any further work till we see how you fair.

Agreed, it drives seemingly fine although I would say that mine is a touch hesitant sometimes and I don't remember it being that way originally but I have had it a while now.

I have been stalling it quite a bit lately and its not that I am not used to the car.......it seems if I stamp the pedal real quickly, the revs drop for a second before they climb. Again, never noticed this before but could be normal and now that I am 40.......senility is kicking in.

One other observation that I have and not sure if it is either relevant or down to the replacement Ktec exhaust (warranty replacement) but I do note that the exhaust seems to be an awful lot hotter or behaving so.......after a normal drive to work and the car is turned off......the exhaust makes a HUGE racket as it is cooling. It never did that before either. Not sure if timing being out would cause hotter temperatures down the line.

Finally, I had a spare set of cam plugs lying around a while ago after the belt was done and I did pull them and try and check the timing (without the tools) visually using straight edges and drill bits and I think it was a fraction out.......not much.....but out nonetheless. I will grab more end plugs pre-emptively in case I get a chance to get the guy who did the belts to take a look before you get a chance.......it's hard to get his time.

And.....good luck

J

 

[jinjur]

Found my thread fella......will try and use some common sense and video the engine WITH THE BONNET OPEN! lol....I am a tube.

http://www.cliosport.net/threads/timing.794552/#post-11123750

You can see a few guys confirming my timing was out but tbh.....I was not well at all shortly after that and this was the least of my worries.

Might still try and pick it up with the guy that did it
J

 

[jinjur]

And here is my idle today......all warmed up.
https://goo.gl/photos/NaXvv9GudeisjwGJ7

Sitting under 1k RPM......bear in mind, this is with the fastchip remap that I think made it idle higher than this
https://goo.gl/photos/6zjQNuoPLoJhiqk48

Hopefully you can see those links
J

 

[Davyboy888]

Andrew [Jinjur ]... not sure of your name there. This is absolutely identical to my car. I looked at the ends of your camshafts and they look like they're out about the same as mine. The horseshoe will go into those groves but needs a little encouragement... which is what I gave it when I put mine back together. Clearly that was my mistake and I'm guessing that the horseshoe should be offered up and almost fall into them.

Just want to drag @bloke back into the discussion again with a few questions :
o Do you have any photos of where that window in the bell housing is ? I can't find anything in the manuals etc... about it and a friend of mine who's had Meganes to pieces is adamant it isn't there. He's never had a Clio F4R in bits though (!) so I'm guessing there are differences.
o Also, as I mentioned above, when the horseshoe is reinserted, does it need to go in without any resistance whatsoever ?
o Thinking back at what I did, I saw the belt buckle a little as I tightened the bolt on the end of dephaser pulley. It means that the cogged tool was not holding the two pulleys rigidly enough. Do you have any suggestions on what to do there ? Should I get another tool or would you recommend using an air-impact gun instead of normal tools ?
o When I've previously done a cambelts on cars, I normally turn the engine over by hand three or four times and then go back and try and get the tools etc... back in to ensure that it hasn't moved. Given the sensitivity to tolerances here, I'm concerned that a slight stretch or settling of the belt may knock this thing out a degree or so. Any advice on how best to do this ?

Again mega thanks to everyone helping here. Hopefully we'll get to a solution to this problem that lots of people seem to be experiencing.

 

[bloke]

forgot about this sorry. will try and find you a pic of the hole in the box but it's definitely there though.

neither pulley should move when you tighten them up unless the locking piece isn't fully up against the pulley, that would let the pulley move slightly.

horseshoe should go in easily but don't worry if you need to put a little bit of pressure on it to get one end in, not have to force it though.

 

[bloke]

not the best of pics but only one i had showing it. to the left of the crank sensor.

 

[Davyboy888]

That's great @bloke Thanks so much ! I think my locking tool isn't good enough. I'm just trying to face up to the fact I probably need to spend £150 on the genuine Renault tool kit Mine's a Sealy and came with just two cogs, despite the fact it says it's for the F4R. The genuine Renault one appears to have three, one extra long one with spacers. I'm guessing I need the extra long one for the 182, which is probably why my tool didn't hold the pulleys properly.

 

[flebay]

photos of where that window in the bell housing is ?

 

[Davyboy888]

@flebay That's fantastic, thanks so much. Your Flickr gallery is on all the different stages of the process is amazing too.
So is that the flywheel notch below the green paint ? Also, should that notch line up with the mark on the bell housing that has the zero on it, which seems to be second in from the left ?

Again, this is so helpful guys, really appreciate it.

 

[flebay]

@flebay That's fantastic, thanks so much. Your Flickr gallery is on all the different stages of the process is amazing too.
So is that the flywheel notch below the green paint ? Also, should that notch line up with the mark on the bell housing that has the zero on it, which seems to be second in from the left ?

Again, this is so helpful guys, really appreciate it.

The above picture with green paint mark is with the crankshaft locking pin in the tdc hole.
You can fit the pin into the balance hole but it wont go in all the way so its obvious when its it that plus the mark wont be as above.

 

[Davyboy888]

Ah OK... so with the locking pin in the correct hole on the crankshaft, the flywheel notch aligns with the second line on the bell-housing.
This is a massive help. Thanks again.

 

[jinjur]

you know.........while I am still sure (and can be seen in my pics) that my timing is a hair out............I am pretty convinced that my car is running worse by the day here.

at 96K miles......are injectors a serious consideration that I should be having?
original plug leads and coil too but once up and running over 2k the car pulls well.
Sorry to keep bumping into your thread Davy......just keen to see if we can sort this.

tbh.....i am not far getting the car on a boat and hitting the mainland to get the timing checked/sorted

J

 

[Davyboy888]

Yes. Injectors are definitely another weak point on these engines. They slowly deteriorate, then fail. When one fails, the ECU issues an error code and switches it off, placing you on three cylinders. I bought my car with a failed injector which was an easy fix. There are two crude tests to see if the injectors have problems - placing a screwdriver on the metal bit and placing your ear at the other end... you should hear a clicking noise. Second, putting an Ohm-Meter across it to measure the resistance. I can't remember what a good reading should be... but somebody will know. However I imagine either of these would issue a fault code. It's also possible that there are issues with leads and plugs but mine are well over the ton and seem to be OK.

Timing remains the number one suspect here though...

 

[bloke]

you know.........while I am still sure (and can be seen in my pics) that my timing is a hair out............I am pretty convinced that my car is running worse by the day here.

at 96K miles......are injectors a serious consideration that I should be having?
original plug leads and coil too but once up and running over 2k the car pulls well.
Sorry to keep bumping into your thread Davy......just keen to see if we can sort this.

tbh.....i am not far getting the car on a boat and hitting the mainland to get the timing checked/sorted

J

i can spit on the ferry from where i am :wink:

 

[jinjur]

*adds Stena Deals to favourites*
*waits*
*watches*

Noted @bloke

J

 

[R3k1355]

at 96K miles......are injectors a serious consideration that I should be having?

I've just done my injectors at about 90k, the idle is so much better it's very surprising.

 

[jinjur]

I've just done my injectors at about 90k, the idle is so much better it's very surprising.

if you don't mind me asking bud....how much did that run you?

J

 

[Miguel Guilherme]

your car also idles to about 1200 while it's moving?

 

[jinjur]

Hi Miguel,
Never considered that......tried it today while the car was warm and coasting...........idles at 1000

A

 

[R3k1355]

if you don't mind me asking bud....how much did that run you?

J

£130 for a set of four from Eastern Europe off eBay.

Cheaper sets were available before xmas, obviously I wasn't smart enough to jump on them then so paid more

 

[jinjur]

Thanks for that bud.

Mine is 100% getting worse lately......and I don't think its just in my head. So while the timing is definitely out a bit, I have something else at work here too

FML

 

[Turbo steve]

Renparts for injectors, i did mine last month after a problem

 

[Turbo steve]

Sorry forgot to ask, do you have access to a RS tuner box to do some data logging

 

[jinjur]

Sorry forgot to ask, do you have access to a RS tuner box to do some data logging

I do bud.....not sure if Davy does but tell me what might be of use and I can grab it tonight.

 

[Turbo steve]

I do bud.....not sure if Davy does but tell me what might be of use and I can grab it tonight.

if you do some data logging and put the file up here, people may be able to help you. I have learnt a lot by doing this and studying the files.

 

[jinjur]

lumpy ass running logs

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2HUNM5eY-_AZm56cERzSGtSMUE

 

[Turbo steve]

lumpy ass running logs

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2HUNM5eY-_AZm56cERzSGtSMUE

No file present for me to view

 

[jinjur]

FML........sorry dude

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2HUNM5eY-_AZm56cERzSGtSMUE/view?usp=sharing

 

[Turbo steve]

FML........sorry dude

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2HUNM5eY-_AZm56cERzSGtSMUE/view?usp=sharing

Dont think you have saved it correctly. When you do a log file before you save it click on "Toggle all" if you are not sure how to create the log file go on the fastchip website and read the manual.

 

[jinjur]

Hmmm.......I did toggle all but then removed some of the values that I did not think were relevant. So it has got most in it

J

 

[Turbo steve]

Hmmm.......I did toggle all but then removed some of the values that I did not think were relevant. So it has got most in it

J

Its not showing as the correct file type to be able to read it within the software

 

[jinjur]

Are you reading it from RSTuner Steve?
Its a zipped up csv and I just opened it here in work on my copy of RSTuner

 

[Turbo steve]

Are you reading it from RSTuner Steve?
Its a zipped up csv and I just opened it here in work on my copy of RSTuner

yes

 

[jinjur]

Hey Davey.......have you made any further progress with your lumpy running
I swear mine is getting worse so while my timing is deffo out, something else is at play......prob injectors based on my logs that Steve eyeballed for me
MAP reading quite high

 

[Davyboy888]

Sorry for the radio silence... I didn't know anyone had posted on the thread, thought I'd set up alerts but they never arrived

OK, I bit the bullet and bought the proper Renault timing tool kit and set about redoing the timing on Thursday and Friday. It solved the problem. It's idling a lot better and the MAP reading is now 369mB. It's a little lumpy [compared to my silky smooth E46 straight 6] but nothing like it was before. So I can confirm that if you experience a lumpy idle AND a high MAP reading, your timing's out.
Now the question is why this happened in the first place. First time around I used a tool made by Sealey [specifically for the 2.0L F4R engine]. It will not hold the two pulleys tightly enough. It's just not up to the job. When I was tightening the fasteners on the ends of the pulleys, they belt would bow very slightly, indicating the tool wasn't holding the pulleys tight enough. The Renault tool is so much better. The cogs are toothed all the way around, come in different sizes and fit the pulleys better. It did set me back £150 though, several times that of the Sealey tool. The other thing to bear in mind is that the timing on this engine needs to be absolutely spot on. There appears to be very little tolerance for it being out. It's super sensitive.

By the way, another thing to watch out for. While I had all the gubbins off, I also decided to replace the auxiliary belt, tensioner and idler pulley with a Renault kit. I'd replaced the auxiliary belt when I'd done the timing previously with a Dayco one but their factory recommendation is 2mm too short and was rubbing on the tensioner ! Thinking that I'd been sold a dud, I double checked on Dayco's site and the motor factors had sent me the 'right one'. So do not use Dayco auxiliary belts in this engine as they aren't the correct length !

Hope all this helps.

 

[jinjur]

Sorry for the radio silence... I didn't know anyone had posted on the thread, thought I'd set up alerts but they never arrived 😧

OK, I bit the bullet and bought the proper Renault timing tool kit and set about redoing the timing on Thursday and Friday. It solved the problem. It's idling a lot better and the MAP reading is now 369mB. It's a little lumpy [compared to my silky smooth E46 straight 6] but nothing like it was before. So I can confirm that if you experience a lumpy idle AND a high MAP reading, your timing's out.
Now the question is why this happened in the first place. First time around I used a tool made by Sealey [specifically for the 2.0L F4R engine]. It will not hold the two pulleys tightly enough. It's just not up to the job. When I was tightening the fasteners on the ends of the pulleys, they belt would bow very slightly, indicating the tool wasn't holding the pulleys tight enough. The Renault tool is so much better. The cogs are toothed all the way around, come in different sizes and fit the pulleys better. It did set me back £150 though, several times that of the Sealey tool. The other thing to bear in mind is that the timing on this engine needs to be absolutely spot on. There appears to be very little tolerance for it being out. It's super sensitive.

By the way, another thing to watch out for. While I had all the gubbins off, I also decided to replace the auxiliary belt, tensioner and idler pulley with a Renault kit. I'd replaced the auxiliary belt when I'd done the timing previously with a Dayco one but their factory recommendation is 2mm too short and was rubbing on the tensioner ! Thinking that I'd been sold a dud, I double checked on Dayco's site and the motor factors had sent me the 'right one'. So do not use Dayco auxiliary belts in this engine as they aren't the correct length !

Hope all this helps.

Thanks for the update Davy......really glad you got it sorted although that does confirm that my mechanic is probably not using the right gear :/

J

 

[Davyboy888]

Thanks for that. Ya me too.

I'd imagine most garages would use an aftermarket tool as the Renault one is so expensive. Maybe they can get them to work, but it certainly didn't work for me. Before you do anything with injectors etc... you'll need to get the timing rechecked. Adjusting the timing is not as bad of a ball ache as changing the belt if that's any consolation.

I'd just like to thank @bloke and @flebay for all their help and photos etc... It made a big difference.

 

[R3k1355]

Is there a noticeable difference in power as well now the timing is correct?