Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project [Year 3 - Engine and Chassis Rebuild]

[edde]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Ive been sourcing parts over the past few weeks even though I didnt yet have a car, as I had decided the direction it was going to be heading. I wanted to run a Clio 172 drivetrain, as the brakes are bigger and more powerful than the Williams/Valver setup. To do this, it required having the wishbones, calipers, hubs and driveshafts from a 172.

The usual disk size for a Mk1 Clio is 259mm, whereas the 172 run 280mm disks. This gives a lot better braking performance, aided by a larger caliper allowing for larger pads, meaning a greater contact surface area on the disk. There are also a lot more options open with regards to type of disk and pads for 172’s, compared with Mk1 Clios, so it seemed to be a good idea to run the newer larger components.

The last thing was to refill the gearbox with oil. Only Renault would be so stupid to put a plastic plug on the front of the box for the filler, and not a metal one. The plastic snapped as i was turning it, but I luckily managed to get it out. Got some hosepipe and a funnel, and filled the gearbox with 4 litres, then put the plug back in.

I don't understand why use bigger disk brakes if you want better handling (less unsprung weight) and a simplier setup use the 259mm disk the 172 calipers are heavier etc if you wanted to uprate them get some 4 pots etc

As for the plastic plug for the gearbox it is a great idea its light weight if you realy wanted to be specific.

As for your coilover IMO that to much material you've had removed its not safe.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

I don't understand why use bigger disk brakes if you want better handling (less unsprung weight) and a simplier setup use the 259mm disk the 172 calipers are heavier etc if you wanted to uprate them get some 4 pots etc

As for the plastic plug for the gearbox it is a great idea its light weight if you realy wanted to be specific.

As for your coilover IMO that to much material you've had removed its not safe.

ok. id like to see some technical spec as to why removing 1mm of material from the holes of the coilover is unsafe...?

if you must know, i contacted FK directly about this, and they said their manufacturing/testing process confirms that it WOULD be well within the safe limits.

as for the 172 running gear....why not? I dont want to be like every other hybrid out there, williams running gear, etc...id rather do my own thing. I could have bought 4 pots as I did have the money, but I wanted to use 172 hubs, so I have MORE options for 4pots/better brakes in the future.

as for the plastic plug, if its such a great design, why did it break? A simple aluminium screw/plug could have been used, and there would be hardly any difference in weight....but weight of a gearbox plug....seriously come on.

thanks for the opinion anyway, you're entitled to that, but id like to see some proof that its unsafe, when the manufacturer specifically said it would be ok.

 

[jams]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Go jord go jord.

 

[mossyv6]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Another superb project mate, respect and keep up the hard work.

Long live the valver.

 

[Martin]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

looks like it's coming on well, good work

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Day 47

Ive been after a Williams steering rack for a while, as the valver one just does not wind out far enough to make the tracking correct with the widetrack fitted. I managed to get hold of one, and it arrived today. Williams’ are a wider track than a valver as standard, so naturally the steering rack is also wider, perfect for what I need.

So I set about removing the valver steering rack today. Starting with draining the PAS fluid, so I can re-use it, as its only 2 weeks old. Then removed the track rod ends from the hubs, and the bolts holding the rack to the subframe. The stupid thing is, the bolts on the drivers side are behind the manifold downpipe, so I had to remove it…which could not be done with the drivers side driveshaft in place, so that had to be removed also, nightmare!

Managed to get all that off, and all the bolts out. The rack was now loose, but the main feed for the PAS pump to the rack was still connected, and there was pysically no room to get the pipe off, or any leverage on a spanner. I ended up ripping the rack out of a hole on the passenger side, with the pipe still connected. Then the pipe could be removed easily, meaning the rack was finally off the car. Upto this point, it had taken 5 hours, stupid little things slowing the whole process down as usual!

I thought getting the Williams rack back on would be easy, but as I realised, it wasnt. I could not figure out how to get the rack back through the hole that the valver one came out through, with the pipe connected. The pipe had to be connected before putting the rack back on as there is no room to connect it when its in place on the car. By this time, it was pitch black, and the bulb went in my portable light, so I removed the pipe and left it for the day.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Day 48

I was going to attempt to fit the Williams steering rack again today, but its rained all day, so that was never happening. The other two jobs that needed sorting were the rounded off brake line (Day 29), by swapping it with one that I got from a scrap yard, and make another exhaust mount for the side exit. Once the rounded line was off, I would be able to fit the 172 line to that side also, so the lines were the same on both sides.

After looking at the passenger side where the 172 line was already fitted, I thought they looked a bit too long, so got hold of some Williams lines from Winston. They are supposed to be slightly longer that valver ones, because of the wider track. After comparing them, there was no difference at all, so either they are not Williams lines, or something else.

My only option was to use the 172 lines; I thought they would fit better if the black sleeve thats usually around the caliper end was removed, as this was making the hose stick right out on the caliper, and have a very tight bend before joining the car. After removing the two black sleeves, the hose went on much better, and dosent have any sharp bends.

I had attempted to get the rounded line off the night before, by angle grinding the nut/line off on the hose end. That easily got it off, but I should have thought and took the master cylinder end off first, as brake fluid was dripping out at a pretty fast rate. I attempted to get the line off the master cylinder, but without a light in the dark it was never happening. I ended up screwing a screw into the end of the brake line that was ground off to stop it leaking overnight.

Anyway, came back to it this evening. Decided to remove the resovoir from the top of the cylinder, to make the line removal easy. Pulled it off, catching the fluid in a tray, although im going to put fresh in when I bleed them. The line came off, and the one from the scrap yard went on, proved to be very easy after a bit of fiddling. Finally screwed the 172 line into the caliper, and then connected the other end to the line on the car. Finally, two brake lines on the front that are the same (Ignore the shock bolts, they are just loose, had to remove them to get the driveshaft out).

After that was sorted, there was one more job to attend to. The other day I was in Leeds, and met up with someone whos working up there. I took them out for a drive in the car, and the exhaust fell off. As funny as it sounds, it was because the weld on the hanger that holds the exhaust into the rubber had snapped off. I had to use some wire to tie it up to get me home, until I could get a welder again to sort the hanger.

Managed to get a welder sorted today, and made a new part for the hanger, to make it a bit more secure. We made sure that loads of weld was on, so it will NEVER snap off again. It looks very dodgy, but it will never be seen, and the side exit is only temporary, so I dont care! Once that was done, we welded a few other small parts on the exhaust that I thought were blowing. All it needs now is re-fitting to the car once the steering rack is sorted, and it should hopefully stay on this time.

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Good work as always, would it of been easier to drop the subframe again to change the rack?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

yeah probably, but after last time I couldnt be bothered, and a few people said it was easier to do with it still on, which obviously isnt, unless im doing something wrong!

 

[B5 BDJ]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

nice little update. good luck re-fitting the steering rack!

 

[Adams_16v]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

i didnt realise the rack was wider on the willy! Useful to know!

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

they use different track rod ends too.....the ends are male thread on a williams, and female on a valver.....stupid if you ask me!

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Day 49

After fitting the brake line and 172 hoses last night, I decided to bleed the system with fresh fluid before attempting the steering rack. Once that was done, I set about getting the Williams rack onto the car.

Firstly I tried getting it through the same hole that the valver one came out of, but it seemed I couldnt remember how it came out. So I attempted to try and get the rack in from the drivers side; after getting it three quarters of the way in, the gearbox was in the way of a few pipes. After a few attempts from that side, I gave up, and went back to the passenger side.

A few hours went by, and alot of swearing later I managed to get the rack into position by moving it at several different angles, and leaning the engine forwards and backwards (Dogbone mount was removed). I managed to connect up the main feed from the power steering pump as the rack was halfway in, as there was just enough room to get it connected and tight. Once the rack was down in position, it needed the brackets and four bolts re-attaching to keep it in place. After a lot of fiddling, all the bolts went on, and everything lined up fine.

I then reconnected the steering column to the rack, fitted the manifold downpipe, and exhaust now that the new hanger was in place. Inbetween these jobs I kept topping up the power steering fluid, so it would drain down through the system. After all the exhaust was back on, I started the car to get the power steering fluid round the whole rack. The rack worked fine, no leaks and nice and smooth.

The last thing to do was to connect the track rod ends to the hubs, this is where yet more problems arose. Whoever removed the rack from the car it was previously on, must have got impatient when the ball joint/thread was just spinning as they were removing the nut (sign of worn balljoint). It seems because of this they decided to hacksaw the thread off, leaving it too short to ever be reused. As can be seen in the pictures, there is no where near enough thread coming through the hub for the nut to be properly screwed on.

I got on the phone to GSF, Euro Car Parts, CES and Renault Parts, to the shock that nowhere stocked the track rod ends for a Williams steering rack. Everywhere said it would be mid next week by the time they could get me a pair, so yet again I was stuck with an unusable car. Finally, I noticed yet another problem as I was checking all the suspension bolts were tight. The drivers side hub seemed to have a lot of lateral movement, in all directions. When comparing it to the passenger side, it was definately not right, so im guessing that the bottom balljoint (on the wishbone) is definately worn and not usable.

The problem lies with not being able to buy the balljoints seperately, Renault, GSF and Euro Car Parts only sell complete wishbones with the ball joint included. Although, apparently most Renault bottom ball joints are the same, so I am going to try a ball joint from a Valver wishbone tommorow.

 

[Matteh]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

not true, I bought brand new ball joints on their own

*goes to dig out reciept*

 

[Matteh]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

R42406 BALL JOINT-LOWER

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

172 (ph quick) ball joint?

apparently they are all the same though....if thats true, ive got some spare on a set of valver wishbones...

 

[Matteh]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

ermm, trying to remember the phrasing they used. something along the lines of 'all clios except v6' - dont recall them saying anything about sports.

if you've got some valver ones laying around i'd compare them, they're probably the same?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

going to dig them out in the morning

 

[Guppy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

so you wont be bringing this to the karting?

 

[bmh.01]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

QH make seperate ball joints cost about a tenner from my local factors and they do the 1*2 ones.

 

[Mark One]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

I've bought loads of separate valver and willy ball joints from eurocar parts

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

ive just been out in the hammering rain swapping it, stupid i know

turns out they are all the same near enough, valver was same as 172...so ive swapped it

no more play now......put wheels back on, come to start it, batterys dead! ffs.

so you wont be bringing this to the karting?

should be there *touch wood*

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

ive just been out in the hammering rain swapping it, stupid i know

turns out they are all the same near enough, valver was same as 172...so ive swapped it

no more play now......put wheels back on, come to start it, batterys dead! ffs.



should be there *touch wood*

or maybe not.......not drivable now :dapprove:

 

[*Danny*]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

track rod end = fail

 

[mini-valver]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Whats happened?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

got williams rack on.....working etc, but toe'ing in because of the camber. Needs like 1 turn inwards on the track rod ends, but they are siezed....been out in the rain trying to do it, gave up.........

 

[mini-valver]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Cant you do it at the rack end? Or are they a sealed unit and only adjustable by the rod ends?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

you undo the locking nut on the end of the thread, then turn the racks arm.........f**king gay

valver rack worked perfectly adjustment wise, just didnt adjust far enough, hence the change

 

[iimushroomzii]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Get the blow torch out...

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

something else just happened.....lol....god how i love this car ffs.

started it, pulled off drive, turned.....get this bubbling noise near my feet (where the PAS line goes into the rack)......then like some other wierd noises, look outside, fluid in a line where i just drove.....so its back on the drive............meh!

 

[.GAZ.]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

flol.. ur lucky eh!

 

[mini-valver]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

LOL! You know the nightmares I had with the VTS, and you laughed

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

LOL! You know the nightmares I had with the VTS, and you laughed

im just laughing this off now lol, acctually cant be arsed with it, specially in the rain............going to rip engine out this week, lol

oh, vts....how i loved that vent outline, lol.....

 

[mini-valver]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Pmsl! I had an annoying rattle, so I crashed the fucker

Have another go, make Danny do it with his teeth.

 

[*Danny*]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

lmfao its ok thanks dave, already smacked my hand trying do it in the rain

 

[B5 BDJ]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

unlucky mate, sounds like major ball ache!

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

Day 50

After removing the worn balljoint from the car and comparing it with a Valver one, it seems they are exactly the same. So I fitted the Valver one in its place, tightened everything up, and there was no more movement.

I took it for a drive round the block to see if it was ok, even though the tracking was out. It drove fine, so it just needed the track rod ends sorting. The track rod ends needed removing, as I was going to have to get new ends for it anyway, so I attempted to remove them. After managing to undo the locking nut, I tried to wind out the track rod end, but it didnt want to move at all, so I left it.

Later on that evening, I went out to go to the local shop. Started the car, and pulled it off the drive. The steering was really heavy, and I could hear a bubbling noise coming from near my feet. I knew it was the power steering, as the joint for the pump feed is right at the bottom of the steering column, where the hole is on the bulkhead. I reversed it onto the drive, and left it, because it was 10pm and I had no idea what had just happened!




Day 52

Today I needed to see what the noise was coming from the power steering line going into the rack. After having a look around while the car was running, turning the wheel etc, it became obvious the power steering line was leaking every time pressure went through it. The line in is a high pressure hose, and it was leaking out of the top of the nut that screws it into the rack, either a sign that the seal has gone, or it isnt tight enough.

I was sure I had tightened it enough, but I still spent an hour trying to get the spanner onto it to get it a bit tighter. There is literally no room to get any tools onto the nut what so ever, as can be seen in the picture. I checked the power steering resovoir, it was empty, meaning it had all drained out the night before when this first started happening.

There was nothing else I could try other than patch up the place where it is leaking from just to keep it going for now, Winston suggested some chemical metal. Got hold of some, mixed it, put it on the whole joint where the pipe goes into the nut, then let it set for 30-40mins. I put a small amount of fluid into the resovoir, and started the car. Turned the wheel, the chemical metal just cracked and it started coming out again. I now have a nice patch of fresh fluid all over the drive!

On a side note, I recieved a fused earth strap from Jay/Burp yesterday at the ClioSport Karting Day, which will work great with my relocated battery in the boot. At least it will be fused now incase the worst did ever happen to the cable running the length of the car.

So thats all my options out really, I cant remove the rack again, as it is completely pointless and took so long last time. Even if I did that, I would need to replace the whole line from the pump to the rack, to make sure the seal hadnt gone on the hose. The car is undrivable as it is, its been sat there for around a week now. My next step is to get the engine out, and go from there.

 

[*Danny*]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

it will all come together eventually mate, like john said before that what you get with buying old cars and then start swapping bits

 

[Mark One]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

manual rack ftw. More steering feedback. Few more turns lock to lock but i think you might like it in the end.

I know it's not a fix, but it's a suggestion
I picked up a manual column for 10 at the scrappy (VGC) and going to buy the rack brand new i think from GSF or something.

 

[Matteh]

Re: Mk1 Hybrid Project

valvers make you earn the right to drive em!