clio 182
i dont no him personaly but he went out with my girlfriends sister a wile ago. small world
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my clio 182 turbo conversion
- Thread starter simondavies89
- Start date
Lol, yes that is a small world!
R5GTT, 2L turbo
Its not so much a transient thing, it's a coolant enrich thing with the later Clio. Those setups which have the regulator in the tank have different coolant based enrich requirements at different points in the map. It's not wildly different but enough to make a difference. What would be really nice is a 3D cold start map but instead I have to work with 2x 2D coolant enrich maps which I split based on load. It's a lot better than the single coolant enrich you get in an OMEX or DTA for example but it still means there must be a small compromise when cold.
They're a funny old setup to calibrate as it goes. Those without the rail regulator have a huge requirement for injector at 2000-2500rpm once warm, but less so when cold. What that means is that in order to have correct mixture when warm we must compromise a little when cold. And it's a standalone at the end of the day, it's fair to say that it is often going to be less sophisticated than a modern OEM in these respects but that the advantage of being able to properly tune when warm out weigh any cons. Chip, VVT is done with the standalone.
Simon I'd advise not taking it to to somewhere that doesn't fully understand these engines and the way I've programmed the ECU. As above it's a finely balanced compromised to get it to where it is with a lot of time spent programming. I left it on the dyno over night for a few days running so I could come in and straight away drive from cold so I could monitor and adjust. Someone who isn't able to spend that time is only going to make it worse.
As I always do with these installs, be it Clio or otherwise, I spend some road time driving them from cold to check that they are acceptable. I know the little glitchyness you're feeling Simon, and with another few days of cold start testing it might be something I can improve on if it's bothering you. If you want to give that a go, drop me a line
Cheers, Chris
Which ECU is it on this car, Im sure it says somewhere in the last 5 pages but Ive forgotten now.
Oh is it not converted to ph1 setup? I'd recommend that TBH.
Yeah Ive mentioned that already, the difference in sophistication between even an antiquated ECU like the clio siemens and most aftermarket is noticeable, its just a shame we dont have total access to completely reprogram the standard ECU properly (I mean altering the software to understand boost properly not just bodging it like the old Ktec conversions) like say cosworth tuners do, Im sure the hardware is more than capable of what we all want if we could just access it properly!
R5GTT, 2L turbo
It's an Adaptronic 420d Chip, I stick them on all kinds Yes definately, the PH1 setup is preferable from a tuning point of view, but actually the OEM works pretty well most of the time. I've done a few like this. The other downside of course is that we don't get as much out of the injectors with a fixed fuel pressure, so not ideal for the big power guys. The Megane 225 injectors in this setup are at about 85% for 240hp so thats about the limit.
Tom, I think it's worth saying that it's not really a big problem, it's a fairly mild lack of smoothness between 1500 and 2800rpm when stone cold. I didn't think it worth justifying the change in fuel system really but the honest answer is yes - as Chip says the Ph1 setup is a lot better. It involves you fitting a return to the tank, suitable pump and installing a regulator in the rail.
Cheers, Chris
Yes definately, the PH1 setup is preferable from a tuning point of view, but actually the OEM works pretty well most of the time. I've done a few like this. The other downside of course is that we don't get as much out of the injectors with a fixed fuel pressure, so not ideal for the big power guys. The Megane 225 injectors in this setup are at about 85% for 240hp so thats about the limit.Tom, I think it's worth saying that it's not really a big problem, it's a fairly mild lack of smoothness between 1500 and 2800rpm when stone cold. I didn't think it worth justifying the change in fuel system really but the honest answer is yes - as Chip says the Ph1 setup is a lot better. It involves you fitting a return to the tank, suitable pump and installing a regulator in the rail.
Cheers, Chris
Yes as with all things related to tuning, you have to offset the hassle again the gains.
If he does swap to a phase 1 setup and proper regulator with a vacuum/boost input you will need to completely remap it of course.
(I know you know this, but others reading might not!)
On mine we have kept the 197 fuel rail, but added an external regulator on a t-piece and hence added a fuel return as well.
If he does swap to a phase 1 setup and proper regulator with a vacuum/boost input you will need to completely remap it of course.
(I know you know this, but others reading might not!)
On mine we have kept the 197 fuel rail, but added an external regulator on a t-piece and hence added a fuel return as well.
Trophy Turbo :)
Its simple enough to convert the Phase 2 system to not use the regulator in tank, install a FPR in Bay and then run a pipe back into the tank, keeps the fuel gauge working correctly as well as fitting a phase 1 sender alters the 172 ph2/182 gauage
clio 182
spoke to chris and hes happy for me to take it back to try and smooth it out, just got to organize a good time.
Trophy Turbo :)
Youll never ever ever ever get a standalone to run perfect on cold start I dont care how many hours are put into it. Its some thing ive spend 3 months on cold starts and its still not perfect
Its difficult but I would disagree with the "never ever ever ever" as I have mapped cars that do so, all be it very much over a long period of time as unless you have a climactic chamber you cant map for all year round without taking a year to map it!
But even then you will need an idle control valve and it does depend on the ECU, megasquirt for example is particularly good for it as it has quite sophisticated warmup algorithms in the first place compared to cruder stuff like omex.
My current turbo if its really cold needs a touch of the throttle for the first 30 seconds or so to run at all and doesnt run very smoothly until its warmed up, as it doesnt have an ICV so there isnt enough air on really cold days, only way to make there be enough air when cold would be to increase the throttle stop, and then there is too much bypass when hot.
So its certainly very much a compromise in most cases.
If my turbo was a daily I would be adding an ICV, but as it gets so few really cold starts a year (I only normally do 1 or 2 trackdays between December and February) its just not worth it for me to bother when I have so many others things to work on that are more important.
Ive literally just converted to the Ph1 fuel rail setup, should be finished the return line tonight hopefully.
Obivously the ph1 regulator reduces fuel pressure at idle, but I was also under the impression the stock Ph1 regulator will recognise postiive boost and compensate the pressure on a 1:1 level? Is this not the case?
i.e 1 bar of boost peak = 4 bar fuel pressure at the rail, and a 'net' 3 bar fuel pressure at the injector nozzle?
Cheers
PS The GEN90 does an good job of cold starts and cold driving, FBW does have its benefits in places!
Obivously the ph1 regulator reduces fuel pressure at idle, but I was also under the impression the stock Ph1 regulator will recognise postiive boost and compensate the pressure on a 1:1 level? Is this not the case?
i.e 1 bar of boost peak = 4 bar fuel pressure at the rail, and a 'net' 3 bar fuel pressure at the injector nozzle?
Cheers
PS The GEN90 does an good job of cold starts and cold driving, FBW does have its benefits in places!
I was hopeing you would answer my question about the ph1 regulator
ive not tried one on boost so couldn't give a definitive answer as to how it would respond.
Did a search and found this old thread >> http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?510816-clio-172-fuel-pressure
Seems ph1 regulators work just fine with boost
Seems ph1 regulators work just fine with boost
Most N/A ones will work with a bit of boost, but they arent always 1:1, it depends on the size of the area above and below the diaphram, it isnt always equal, generally it is though.
TBH if its not quite exactly 1:1 it isnt going to make any difference for what you want anyway, so long as its vaguely along those lines.
TBH if its not quite exactly 1:1 it isnt going to make any difference for what you want anyway, so long as its vaguely along those lines.
clio 182
hi again, havnt posted in a wile, had some problems with my 182 turbo and had to wait to get it back to chris last saturday. it had problems with the fuel pressure. chris says its hard work with the in tank regulator. he had it back on the rollers and it all seemed fixed on the drive home, but it started missing again and today its just the same, had to take the other car coz it was just missing at 2500-3000rpm and sometimes my foot is down but it feels like ive got my foot completly off. chris said about the ph1 setup that u lot have ap about and i feel i may have to go down this route, ive emailed chris this morning so il c what he says. can anyone let me no a parts list so i can start looking at sorting it out, also if any1 can remeber how much it cost them to get the parts that wud help. cheers
Nout wrong with the ph1 setup.
Needs the Ph1 Rail (with regulator), buy 3-4m of 8mm Nylon tube, a Metre of 8mm ID Fuel Hose, some replacement fuel rail adaptors from Ktec, some clips to hold the nylon pipe to the rubber hose.
8mm drill for the fuel pump housing, 1/8" NPT tap for the housing and a 8mm x 1/8" NPT 90 degree fitting for the housing.
Probably doesnt make sense but ill try and draw a diagram later if it helps.
Needs the Ph1 Rail (with regulator), buy 3-4m of 8mm Nylon tube, a Metre of 8mm ID Fuel Hose, some replacement fuel rail adaptors from Ktec, some clips to hold the nylon pipe to the rubber hose.
8mm drill for the fuel pump housing, 1/8" NPT tap for the housing and a 8mm x 1/8" NPT 90 degree fitting for the housing.
Probably doesnt make sense but ill try and draw a diagram later if it helps.
Agreed, but the in tank regulator he mentions (which isnt a ph1 setup), is horrific for a turbo.
Nope was replying to the last post about the 182 setup.
You have to run much bigger injectors than you need
You dont get as good a spray pattern from the injectors on boost
If you go for big boost it simply wont work at all
Horrible setup, anyone with it should put it in the bin and doit properly unless you are going to stick with low boost forever and even then its still not nice.
clio 182
spoke to chris and looks like i need to start looking for parts. i had a quick look on ktec and they do the fuel rail and pipes, turbo fuel pressure regulater and turbo fuel pump. rang them for a quote and got £309 for the lot, is this an ok price considering it saves me alot of time and hastle or do u think i can get some of those parts alot cheaper, they wer basicaly £100 each.
clio 182
it just seems like the easiest option, i think il have trouble sourcing all the parts aswell. il c what chris thinks aswell. if any1 nos of any used parts for sale tho id be interested
Its pulling your pants down.
2nd hand Ph1 rail and regulator - £20
4m of nylon tube - £6
1m of 8mm ID rubber pipe - £3.50
Wallbro 255 Pump - £70
Fuel rail tails - £5
Various 'O' clips for hoses - £5-£10.
1/8"NPT tap - £5
1/8" NPT 90 degree 8mm hose tail fitting - £5
Total - £124.50
What are fuel rail tails mate? Could you draw up you diagram, that would help alot
I'll do a diagram in a bit
Fuel rail tail >> http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=4022&appid=2
ALlows you to connect onto 8mm ID tube.
clio 182
cheers, a diagram would be good. wont be able to get it sorted till atleast mid july and depends on when chris is free.
clio 182
im gona just try and do it on the cheap, chris says all i need is a new FPR and retaining clip, fuel rail connection and pump. he says my rail is fine after being modified. cheers laine for that parts list. il most likely get the walbro pump. does any1 no of a well priced adjustable rising rate FPR, i dont no what i need and dont no what "bar" is needed. thers one on ktec but i was hoping to get it abit cheaper it also comes with a retainer clip to secure it to the rail. any1 no where i can get one of these with the clip (or where i can get a clip elsewere) that will do the job? ive searched but no dont realy no what i need to look for. any 1 no link to what im after. cheers
172 cup, Impreza P1
clio 182
"Use the standard ph1 fuel regulator!!"
aah, sorry for soundin like a dumb ass, u will av to be patient with me, im fairly slow when it comes to mechanics. i like cars and boost but no nothing about them. if you ever need any advice on hand made hardwood kitchens tho??? cheers mate il try and get my hands on 1.
aah, sorry for soundin like a dumb ass, u will av to be patient with me, im fairly slow when it comes to mechanics. i like cars and boost but no nothing about them. if you ever need any advice on hand made hardwood kitchens tho??? cheers mate il try and get my hands on 1.
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clio 182
found some guy selling rail and regulator for £25 posted
batesey
ClioSport Club Member
172 Cup Turbo
Im running the standard fixed setup in the tank but I have a ph1 setup ready to put on next year when I go high boost, ive not had any problems on my current setup really, but then again I know if I was to go much higher on the boost levels i'd run into problems
clio 182
ive had it setup on the rollers twice now and its fine for a day or so but then gets progresivly worse to the point it wont go past 2700 rpm without jerking and missfiring, chris says the pressures wondering, could be down to my parts being the problem but im gona get a new uprated pump and go on the ph1 setup, ive just ordered ph1 rail and regulator. chris says he hasnt had a problem with them before but mines not happy, hopefuly this should sort it all out, fingers crossed
