New brakes, disappointed

[The Seer]

Fitted last week to the front: Brembo Max discs, Ferodo DS 2500, Goodridge braided hoses, fluid change.

Felt fine when fitted, crisp and keen to bite.

Waited 250 miles before giving the brakes a moderate work out over eight miles. After which felt fade. Used the car next morning from cold, brakes felt as they did the night before, more pedal pressure needed for stopping. Not as eager to bite.

Read a thread on "greening". Followed instructions and gave a quite few hard stops on the pedal comprising of hard 50-0 and 80-30 stops. Pedal requiring pressure as earlier to for brakes to bite.

Once cold brakes slow to bite than when warm as before. Above procedure repeated many times. Now covered 375 miles after initial fitment.

Whats going on? I thought this would be at the very least an upgrade over the OEM brakes?

Pads glazed? Still in greening phase?

All comments appreciated.

 

[Steve]

I have that set up.

For the first week, things were not brill.

But from then on the change is fantastic, first press in the morning is vague.

I just drove normally from the time i had them fitted, no special bedding whatsoever:S

The hotter they get the better they seem to be.

Maybe you have air in the system??

 

[rctempire]

Happened to Mark (rufstuff), he had to bleed his system again and found air in the system.

He also did the braided hoses and new disks. His brakes disappeared completely at some stages.

 

[The Seer]

I have that set up.

For the first week, things were not brill.

But from then on the change is fantastic, first press in the morning is vague.

I just drove normally from the time i had them fitted, no special bedding whatsoever:S

The hotter they get the better they seem to be.

Maybe you have air in the system??

Yeah I've noticed this too. As you say the first press in the morning is vague.

You're right the hotter they get the better they seem to be. Could this be the fault of the pad? So I'm told DS 2500's are suppose to work well from cold. Never encountered this with the DS 2500's used on Integra Type-R three years ago. Perhaps Ferodo have altered the materials used in the DS 2500's since then? Or could it be the Brembo Max discs?

It's possible air could've got into the system, but how? Could this mean the braided hoses have allowed it into the system?

 

[The Seer]

Happened to Mark (rufstuff), he had to bleed his system again and found air in the system.

He also did the braided hoses and new disks. His brakes disappeared completely at some stages.

Could be air in the system. Will be inspected. Does feel like the pedal is softer than before.

 

[ben_p]

give it a good bleed! sounds like air when you changed the fluid and fitted the lines

 

[Fred@BTM]

rebleed (at least 300ml out of each corner)

then give them some abuse but then drive down the motorway or something for 15min to let them cool (ie don't use them after you've got them HOT)

 

[D1CKY]

rebleed (at least 300ml out of each corner)

then give them some abuse but then drive down the motorway or something for 15min to let them cool (ie don't use them after you've got them HOT)

Why cant you use them once you've got them hot ?

 

[MarkCup]

I found that DS2500s never really bit into the pad like standard, always felt like they needed to heat up.

Do what Fred says then when out again, try and get them to fade. I bet they're dependable.

 

[The Seer]

Many thanks everyone for your comments and advice.

I'll follow the above instructions and hopefully braking will be better.

Hmmm perhaps I should've taken the Pagid Blue route or PF 97.

 

[The Seer]

rebleed (at least 300ml out of each corner)

then give them some abuse but then drive down the motorway or something for 15min to let them cool (ie don't use them after you've got them HOT)

Or perhaps stop in a layby? Not too many motorways near me, just dual carriageways.

 

[MarkCup]

Don't stop. The discs will cool unevenly and warp. Just drive around getting plenty of fresh air around them, plan ahead and don't brake.

 

[Charlieboy]

Many thanks everyone for your comments and advice.

I'll follow the above instructions and hopefully braking will be better.

Hmmm perhaps I should've taken the Pagid Blue route or PF 97.

I think I did say to get the mintex 1144's I think as that the setup I got with the brembo max discs and well happy with them

 

[Fred@BTM]

rebleed (at least 300ml out of each corner)

then give them some abuse but then drive down the motorway or something for 15min to let them cool (ie don't use them after you've got them HOT)

Or perhaps stop in a layby? Not too many motorways near me, just dual carriageways.

thats the last thing you should do, they must get air blowing through them to cool them down!!!!!!

 

[d4ve86]

my ds2500 pads and max disks arnt the best, i lost a lot of pedal feel, I can push the pedal to the floor, the car stops but it doesnt feel right! I have bleed so much fluid through the system, not sure how else to fix it. Our 1.4 has a better pedal feel and stops quicker on standard brakes.

Fred drove my car at oulton, think this could be the same sort of problem?

 

[YozzaSport]

We always recommend a pad that is designed to work with grooved discs when selling the brembo max, and the only pads on the market that we have found that work well are the pagid blue & pagid yellow... but everyone knows better when it comes to actually buying them - and their "know" comes from budget, and what people tell them. Most people run the DS2500 with a plain disc, and it works very well.

DS2500 never seem to cut the mustard as well as the pagids with the brembo max. If customers really want DS2500 & Max we will sell it to them, but normally only after telling them our view.

However, this problem sounds like you have air in the system. If not... go out, 60mph, left foot braking, maintaining a steady speed, for 10 secs at a time, with a minute in between of not using the brakes (to cool them down) do this for 5 cycles. let them cool down.

Do not stop when the brakes are hot or you will destroy your discs. Always cool the brakes down after heavy applications.

/y0z

 

[Steve]

Glad i listened to Fred when i got my set up.

 

[Ali]

rebleed (at least 300ml out of each corner)

then give them some abuse but then drive down the motorway or something for 15min to let them cool (ie don't use them after you've got them HOT)

Eh!!! You do it till there's no air! It's not an exact science!

 

[Dan R]

rebleed (at least 300ml out of each corner)

then give them some abuse but then drive down the motorway or something for 15min to let them cool (ie don't use them after you've got them HOT)

Eh!!! You do it till there's no air! It's not an exact science!

Thats a fact!!! keep bleedin till all the airs gone.

 

[Fred@BTM]

the rear lines hold approx 250ml, the fronts hold about 200ml (all approx)

 

[MarkCup]

Eh!!! You do it till there's no air! It's not an exact science!

Thats a fact!!! keep bleedin till all the airs gone.

Isn't that just stating the obvious?

 

[The Seer]

We always recommend a pad that is designed to work with grooved discs when selling the brembo max, and the only pads on the market that we have found that work well are the pagid blue & pagid yellow... but everyone knows better when it comes to actually buying them - and their "know" comes from budget, and what people tell them. Most people run the DS2500 with a plain disc, and it works very well.

DS2500 never seem to cut the mustard as well as the pagids with the brembo max. If customers really want DS2500 & Max we will sell it to them, but normally only after telling them our view.

However, this problem sounds like you have air in the system. If not... go out, 60mph, left foot braking, maintaining a steady speed, for 10 secs at a time, with a minute in between of not using the brakes (to cool them down) do this for 5 cycles. let them cool down.

Do not stop when the brakes are hot or you will destroy your discs. Always cool the brakes down after heavy applications.

/y0z

Thanks.

I'll follow the instructions to remedy the issue. If things haven't improved after bleeding and following the braking instructions I'll move across to Pagid Blues.

Wanted to upgrade not downgrade.:dapprove:

 

[The Seer]

the rear lines hold approx 250ml, the fronts hold about 200ml (all approx)

Since front lines hold 200 ml and the rears, 250 ml, how is it possible to bleed 300 ml a corner as stated previously?

 

[evok]

Bin the DS2500's

Overrated IMHO

 

[The Seer]

I used em' a few years back, very pleased with them on my Integra.

Obviously Ferodo have changed some of the materials in the pad since then.:dapprove:

 

[ditz]

the rear lines hold approx 250ml, the fronts hold about 200ml (all approx)

Since front lines hold 200 ml and the rears, 250 ml, how is it possible to bleed 300 ml a corner as stated previously?

you could bleed 50 litres out of each if you wanted to, you have to keep filling up the res

 

[The Seer]

^ Understood.Thanks.

 

[Linsen]

I doubt it's got anything to do with the Ferodos. I got mine just a week ago, used them moderately over the week and gave them a few firm stops on saturday, drove along the freeway without touching them for 15 min. or so to let them cool and used them today on track. They were good.

Initially, they don't bite better than standard, but once warmed up, I could tell the difference. It's not huge, but it's there. And they sure deal with the heat much better. After 15 minutes of track time (it's a pretty twisty track with lots of braking and hardly any time/straights to cool) they were at least as good as on the first lap. Probably even better.

(I need more time with them, but I might even be able to move the braking points further ahead once warm. Doesn't help much atm, though, because I'm still on winter rubber. )

 

[dk]

if people want to rip themselves in two by the seatbelt from having stopping power then when I had the brembo max discs and PF97 pads this is what I experienced. Never have I experienced such stopping power, it was immense, used to get sparks fly down the side of the car at night!

Unfortunately I never got to try them on track as I have to get rid, they went through the discs in no time and created a massive problem with brake dust that near enough ruined my wheels and created problems with the paint down the side of the car. You really would have to give the wheels a really good clean EVERY WEEK if you ahd these otherwise you have a set of knackered wheels that will need a refurb, but as mentioned, the stopping power was crazy, used to think the chassis was going to separate from the wheels the brakes were that strong!

 

[evok]

I guess all that track stuff is psycological for you then Linsen.

Even AP (one of the biggest and most respected brake companies) only have them logged as road pads.

http://www.apracing.com/info/info.asp?section=Pad+Material+Performance_46

If your serious about tracking your car then change them.

 

[The Seer]

if people want to rip themselves in two by the seatbelt from having stopping power then when I had the brembo max discs and PF97 pads this is what I experienced. Never have I experienced such stopping power, it was immense, used to get sparks fly down the side of the car at night!

Unfortunately I never got to try them on track as I have to get rid, they went through the discs in no time and created a massive problem with brake dust that near enough ruined my wheels and created problems with the paint down the side of the car. You really would have to give the wheels a really good clean EVERY WEEK if you ahd these otherwise you have a set of knackered wheels that will need a refurb, but as mentioned, the stopping power was crazy, used to think the chassis was going to separate from the wheels the brakes were that strong!

Could you elaborate on the detail of the damage that these metallic pads do to one's wheels and paintwork?

Thanks.

 

[The Seer]

I doubt it's got anything to do with the Ferodos. I got mine just a week ago, used them moderately over the week and gave them a few firm stops on saturday, drove along the freeway without touching them for 15 min. or so to let them cool and used them today on track. They were good.

Initially, they don't bite better than standard, but once warmed up, I could tell the difference. It's not huge, but it's there. And they sure deal with the heat much better. After 15 minutes of track time (it's a pretty twisty track with lots of braking and hardly any time/straights to cool) they were at least as good as on the first lap. Probably even better.

(I need more time with them, but I might even be able to move the braking points further ahead once warm. Doesn't help much atm, though, because I'm still on winter rubber. )

Strange that these pads require heat to make em' work. I remember using DS 2500's a few years back. Didn't encounter any the issues I'm experiencing.

 

[Linsen]

I guess all that track stuff is psycological for you then Linsen.

That is, of course, a possibility. But I could swear that I experienced fading on my old standard brakes. And not experiencing fading on the Ferodos shouldn't be psychological either. However, there's also the brake fluid which could have an influence, I suppose. That was changed along with the new discs and pads. So, I guess I can't really be 100%.

Even AP (one of the biggest and most respected brake companies) only have them logged as road pads.

http://www.apracing.com/info/info.asp?section=Pad+Material+Performance_46

If your serious about tracking your car then change them.

Why would I change them though, if they work just fine?

Strange that these pads require heat to make em' work. I remember using DS 2500's a few years back. Didn't encounter any the issues I'm experiencing.

I'm not saying they need heat to work at all. They work alright from cold, but get better when warm. Actually, it's only the first two stops or so, when the brakes feel a little weak.

But anyway, you should try bleeding your brakes again and see if that helps. After all, there seems to be hardly anybody on this forum who has similar problems with the Ferodos. And quite a few people do use them.

 

[dk]

if people want to rip themselves in two by the seatbelt from having stopping power then when I had the brembo max discs and PF97 pads this is what I experienced. Never have I experienced such stopping power, it was immense, used to get sparks fly down the side of the car at night!

Unfortunately I never got to try them on track as I have to get rid, they went through the discs in no time and created a massive problem with brake dust that near enough ruined my wheels and created problems with the paint down the side of the car. You really would have to give the wheels a really good clean EVERY WEEK if you ahd these otherwise you have a set of knackered wheels that will need a refurb, but as mentioned, the stopping power was crazy, used to think the chassis was going to separate from the wheels the brakes were that strong!

Could you elaborate on the detail of the damage that these metallic pads do to one's wheels and paintwork?

Thanks.

basically, the brake dust that comes off them is a lot more than anything else I have ever seen and really bakes itself onto the alloy, I used to spend hours just trying to clean the wheels and sometime just couldn't get it all off no matter how much i tried, even took a bit of laquer off once.

So like i said, you would need to wash them every week, if i ever left them for 2 weeks, thats when i had problems.

Same thing with the body work, as the brake dust travelled down the side of the car it would collect just behind the front wheel, along the side of the door and just infront of the rear wheel.

This also needed to be dealt with regularly or would need polishing off.

So, in essence, what i am saying is that if you wash your car every week without fail you shouldn't have a problem, might be a little more work but get the PF97's, you won't be disappointed with stopping power, if you don't then go for something less powerful.

I think Yoz said they use them on the clio cup race cars so thats how good they are.

 

[Neal 182]

Glad i listened to Fred when i got my set up.

You What

 

[The Seer]

Could you elaborate on the detail of the damage that these metallic pads do to one's wheels and paintwork?

Thanks.[/quote]
basically, the brake dust that comes off them is a lot more than anything else I have ever seen and really bakes itself onto the alloy, I used to spend hours just trying to clean the wheels and sometime just couldn't get it all off no matter how much i tried, even took a bit of laquer off once.

So like i said, you would need to wash them every week, if i ever left them for 2 weeks, thats when i had problems.

Same thing with the body work, as the brake dust travelled down the side of the car it would collect just behind the front wheel, along the side of the door and just infront of the rear wheel.

This also needed to be dealt with regularly or would need polishing off.

So, in essence, what i am saying is that if you wash your car every week without fail you shouldn't have a problem, might be a little more work but get the PF97's, you won't be disappointed with stopping power, if you don't then go for something less powerful.

I think Yoz said they use them on the clio cup race cars so thats how good they are.[/quote]

Excellent.

I'll probably invest in a set of Pagid Blues or PF 97's sometime in the future.

I clean my wheels and/or paintwork every 3-4 days in this weather. Also I coat the alloys with Swissol Autobahn wheel wax. A specially formulated wax which makes it much harder for hot brake dust to bond with the wheel surface.

The dust I can deal with. What about the sparks, do they pit the paintwork on the wheels and body?

Thanks.

 

[Fred@BTM]

with the PF's the dust sticks to the paint and the wheels, its not a bother for the track boys as they generally don't give a toss what the car looks like!

the dust does come off (yoz "forgot" to clean his cup for 12months, i spent a week sorting it out prior to FCS 07! LOL)

oh and he's found a wheel cleaner that gets the PF dust off aswell

 

[dk]

Could you elaborate on the detail of the damage that these metallic pads do to one's wheels and paintwork?

Thanks.

basically, the brake dust that comes off them is a lot more than anything else I have ever seen and really bakes itself onto the alloy, I used to spend hours just trying to clean the wheels and sometime just couldn't get it all off no matter how much i tried, even took a bit of laquer off once.

So like i said, you would need to wash them every week, if i ever left them for 2 weeks, thats when i had problems.

Same thing with the body work, as the brake dust travelled down the side of the car it would collect just behind the front wheel, along the side of the door and just infront of the rear wheel.

This also needed to be dealt with regularly or would need polishing off.

So, in essence, what i am saying is that if you wash your car every week without fail you shouldn't have a problem, might be a little more work but get the PF97's, you won't be disappointed with stopping power, if you don't then go for something less powerful.

I think Yoz said they use them on the clio cup race cars so thats how good they are.[/quote]

Excellent.

I'll probably invest in a set of Pagid Blues or PF 97's sometime in the future.

I clean my wheels and/or paintwork every 3-4 days in this weather. Also I coat the alloys with Swissol Autobahn wheel wax. A specially formulated wax which makes it much harder for hot brake dust to bond with the wheel surface.

The dust I can deal with. What about the sparks, do they pit the paintwork on the wheels and body?

Thanks.[/QUOTE]
no problem with the sparks, just looks cool when you brake hard in the dark!

 

[TomTom]

I had DS2500s on halfords discs for a while and could put the car on its nose, with a rock solid pedal - couldn't fault them apart from they only lasted 2.5k miles.

 

[The Seer]

^ could be the combo of Brembo's max discs then. I used DS 2500 with aftermarket discs, less sophisticated than the Max discs and they worked very well.