new car Abarth 500

[Gally]

It was low speeds I found it aswell.

With speed assisted steering it gets heavier as you progress obviously but i'm not sure if MK3's had it.

 

[Louism]

That's just your opinion. I'd pick the 500 over the 200 without a doubt.

As i said i do like them but lynden seems to want performance something that the 500 lacks compared to its competitors. Basically I am just asking what you gain from having a 500 over the Renault other than limited numbers.

 

[lbrench]

Glad you are enjoying the car, I worked on some of the Trofeo Race cars from the series at the start of the season along with my partners dad who also has a Campovola grey 500 Abarth.

The engine is the stand out feature of these cars. Abarth quote 133bhp & 155lb ft as standard, though we have found the make about 150bhp & 160lb ft as standard with a simple remap getting you 160bhp & 180lb ft torque.

I see you're on the Abarth Forum, the information you get on there is very narrow with only paid up sponsors getting their products discussed, so only TMC piggy back box for tuning etc so look elsewhere for more comprehensive views.

The car has some fundamental flaws which means I would not drive one.

The steering on the road cars is very poor. It's not even worth driving the car out of sport mode as it's comically lite, and in sport mode it artificially firms up but is devoid of feel & feedback, it's like driving a car with the steering wheel is attached to the rack by bungee cords.

The gearchange is just ok, the standard 6speed box as found in the lesser 500 1.4 n/a is sweeter but the alfa sourced 5 speed in the Abarth has too long a throw and IMO the articulation of the gearstick is wrong.

The pedals are poorly designed with the accelerator pedal being set at the same height as the brake pedal meaning under braking it is lower making heal & towing near impossible unless you dislocate your ankle.

You sit way to high in the standard unsupportive seats, the Sabelts are brilliant but at £1500 way overpriced.

Then the biggest issue, suspension. The rear of the car does and will hit it's bump stops on bumpy A&B roads with little effort making the back end skittish, the Essesse kit makes it worse, shorter springs make car have approx 25mm of suspension travel making it unacceptable. The best thing you can do to the car is remove the rear bumpstops (they just pull off) as the car does not become coil bound or reach the end of the damper travel so no damage can be done.

We developed in conjunction with AVO & Pulce Racing a coil over mono tube suspension set up that greatly improves the car, though it is £1000+vat plus fitting if you don't do it yourself. There is a cheaper twin-tube (inferior) Gaz set up for about £850 iirc which has taken them 4 attempts to get the front spring rates right as 1st time I saw it fitted to a car it was completely coil bound, very poor, not impressed. Though on recent Abarth trackday using my partners dads car as AVO/Pulce demonstrator & comparing to Gaz set up on an admittedly not very testing Seighford track was little to choose between them.

It may sound like I'm bring very harsh to the car, but it does have good qualities. The aforementioned engine is a cracker. The Trofeo cars run standard engine with nothing more than the Garrett turbo from the Punto Essesse fitted and 3" turbo back exhaust system & with only 1.3bar of boost make 215-220bhp & 240lb ft & apart from people downshifting to 2nd rather than 4th spinning engine unto 10500 rpm and smashing the valve buckets there have been no failures. It's rumored engine on standard internals is good for 250+bhp which is brilliant from a 1.4 that will return 40+ mpg all day long.

The brakes are very strong though standard pad compound will fade if used with enthusiasim.

But as a standard package it's not as quick as my Trophy & therefore can't be as quick as the 200 or Megane you previously owned, but they are good fun & low down torque makes them feel quick & though you get no feedback the cars do produce very high levels of grip.

And the standard kit level is good, Blue & Me plus the Interscope soundsystem with built-in subwoofer etc.

yeh i have heard of the cars producing more than standard, mine feels like it has alot more than 135bhp if im being honest and yes the steering when not in sport mode is comical but i only turn sport off when im in traffic or im on the motorway, the steering does get alot heavier when you go over 75mph though which is nice on the motorway.

where can these coilovers be bought because i have checked the pulce racing site and they arnt on there

yes the accelerator pedal is high which means you cant heel/toe but this is something i can live with.

and yeh the steering isnt great but the amount of grip is brilliant, i went round a corner today expecting it to understeer abit and go abit wide and it didnt it just stuck to the line and then powerd out of the corner no problem at all.

and yes the subwoofer under the seat is great and the sound system is better than the clios by a mile and its also 10x better than the meganes.

The steering doesn't sound too good

How you find the steering, Lynden?

its not too bad, most of the people saying its bad are being abit drama queen, its not as responsive as the megane but its not far off the clio, its something i can live with because the amount of grip is great.

To be honest I thought the MK3 clio suffered terrible assisted steering.

agreed

 

[lbrench]

As i said i do like them but lynden seems to want performance something that the 500 lacks compared to its competitors. Basically I am just asking what you gain from having a 500 over the Renault other than limited numbers.

well its cheaper to run and the megane was just getting abit unusable and wasnt much fun unless you really push its limits (which cant be done on the road)
=
i changed from the 200 to the megane for a few reason, i wanted more tunability because i couldnt justify spending 300+ quid for a remap on the clio to only give me an extra 5-7bhp that i wouldnt feel.

the abarth is an absolute hoot to drive, i havent had much chance to go quick in it yet but from what i have seen (164 miles up to now) its a great car.

and it feels just as quick as the clio and when exiting a corner it feels like it pulls alot harder than the clio if im honest. im sure on a track the clio would pull away but with the esseesse or TMC box it should be just as quick as a 200 if not quicker.

lynden

 

[Alex H]

Stick to the numbers, the Abarth is 2.5 times better than the Clio.

 

[lbrench]

oh and the bluetooth in the car is great, really clear through the speakers and its easy to dial a number, mp3 playback is brilliant, i just plug my iphone in and i choose what i want on the dash.
the subwoofer under the driver seat is actually really good and gives the bass a really nice deep tone to it but the treble keeps the voice clear aswell.

unfortunately little things like this is what puts the abarth above the clio as a day to day driver for me.

 

[Leeshez]

Nice .

 

[fUbAr]

Regardless of how good the grip is, if you don't feel connected to it then it's poor design.

Shame really, as this isn't something you can change easily.

 

[J333EVO]

yeh i have heard of the cars producing more than standard, mine feels like it has alot more than 135bhp if im being honest and yes the steering when not in sport mode is comical but i only turn sport off when im in traffic or im on the motorway, the steering does get alot heavier when you go over 75mph though which is nice on the motorway.

where can these coilovers be bought because i have checked the pulce racing site and they arnt on there

yes the accelerator pedal is high which means you cant heel/toe but this is something i can live with.

and yeh the steering isnt great but the amount of grip is brilliant, i went round a corner today expecting it to understeer abit and go abit wide and it didnt it just stuck to the line and then powerd out of the corner.

Weight & feel are two very different things. With electric assistance the motor is normally attached to the steering column & it's a reactive system so until you input a change it's passive, then it has to catch up giving the numb in straight ahead feel. Manufacturers try and over come this by adding resistance to the motor, but this only compounds the lack of feeling, this is where the elastic type sensation comes from as you fight resistance and then motor starts to assist.

The cars do generate grip but it doesn't signpost the levels of adhesion so you have to drive knowing it will hold on rather than feeling that it's holding on. Don't expect more than 10k out of four tyres if you rotate them, 6k on fronts if you leave them, that grip & torque does like to eat through them.

I notice in original thread you mention the Magneti Marelli Monza exhaust available through dealers. I thinks it a gimmick on a car of this level. The reason it has 4 pipes is it has a bypass valve to effectively make it bypass the rear silencer. Fair enough if you have a 500bhp exotic that needs this to pass drive by EEC noise regulations, on a hot hatch £800 for a mild steel back box, no chance. Plus those bypass valves are known to rust meaning either constantly closed or open.

We have had initial discussions with BTB exhausts who have checked the car over & are keen to do something, Pulce may become involved to, our car possibly being the test bed again.

For the AVO coil overs contact Aiden at Pulce as he fronted the money for 5 sets & say they were recommended by Jon Lloyd (my partners dad) who has the initial test set. Damping rates were done by Andy Dawson who for anyone in or has a knowledge of motorsport knows he's a top engineer, he was boss of Nissan Rally Europe along with Jon back in the Sylvia & 240RS group B days before falling out over the poorly conceived Sunny GTiR, but that's another story. Of course buying before New Year means less vat with the increase to 20% coming in.

 

[lbrench]

Weight & feel are two very different things. With electric assistance the motor is normally attached to the steering column & it's a reactive system so until you input a change it's passive, then it has to catch up giving the numb in straight ahead feel. Manufacturers try and over come this by adding resistance to the motor, but this only compounds the lack of feeling, this is where the elastic type sensation comes from as you fight resistance and then motor starts to assist.

The cars do generate grip but it doesn't signpost the levels of adhesion so you have to drive knowing it will hold on rather than feeling that it's holding on. Don't expect more than 10k out of four tyres if you rotate them, 6k on fronts if you leave them, that grip & torque does like to eat through them.

I notice in original thread you mention the Magneti Marelli Monza exhaust available through dealers. I thinks it a gimmick on a car of this level. The reason it has 4 pipes is it has a bypass valve to effectively make it bypass the rear silencer. Fair enough if you have a 500bhp exotic that needs this to pass drive by EEC noise regulations, on a hot hatch £800 for a mild steel back box, no chance. Plus those bypass valves are known to rust meaning either constantly closed or open.

We have had initial discussions with BTB exhausts who have checked the car over & are keen to do something, Pulce may become involved to, our car possibly being the test bed again.

For the AVO coil overs contact Aiden at Pulce as he fronted the money for 5 sets & say they were recommended by Jon Lloyd (my partners dad) who has the initial test set. Damping rates were done by Andy Dawson who for anyone in or has a knowledge of motorsport knows he's a top engineer, he was boss of Nissan Rally Europe along with Jon back in the Sylvia & 240RS group B days before falling out over the poorly conceived Sunny GTiR, but that's another story. Of course buying before New Year means less vat with the increase to 20% coming in.

you knowledge is awesome.

and yeh i will send him an email regarding the coilovers.


thanks mate

 

[Christopher]

Regardless of how good the grip is, if you don't feel connected to it then it's poor design.

Shame really, as this isn't something you can change easily.

Agree'ded'd.

Most modern hatches suffer from it though, unfortunately. Since an electric rack is half the cost of a decent hydraulic setup, you can guess which one gets the nod.

I use M Division as a yardstick. Currently, none of their products use electric racks, nor do they use runs flat tyres... for very good reason.

My problem with VAG cars (oh, not this again) is that their manufacturers think that by artificially weighting the steering, they're fooling us into thinking it's full of feel. It's not, it's dead, it's Pete Burns' face.

Renaultsport have made a good job of EPS though. The R26 being the highlight, IMO.

Also, I've heard the Bluetooth on these Fia... Abarths is really good.

 

[lbrench]

Agree'ded'd.

Most modern hatches suffer from it though, unfortunately. Since an electric rack is half the cost of a decent hydraulic setup, you can guess which one gets the nod.

I use M Division as a yardstick. Currently, none of their products use electric racks, nor do they use runs flat tyres... for very good reason.

My problem with VAG cars (oh, not this again) is that their manufacturers think that by artificially weighting the steering, they're fooling us into thinking it's full of feel. It's not, it's dead, it's Pete Burns' face.

Renaultsport have made a good job of EPS though. The R26 being the highlight, IMO.

Also, I've heard the Bluetooth on these Fia... Abarths is really good.

if im being honest its not something that is bothering me, alot of hype about the bad steering feel but weigh that up against the positives of the car.

and yes the r26 steering feel was pretty much perfect

and not sure if i mentioned the bluetooth, its bloody brilliant lol

 

[Christopher]

R26's steering isn't perfect at all, but it's the best EPS I've tried.

If Fia... Abarth used a hydraulic setup on the 500, it'd cost another £5k, going off their pricing structures.

 

[Joeh]

I'm sure on page 7 i just read 'the underseat sub and the rest of the speakers are much better than the clio's'
If thats what you want then flol, i'm sure renaultsport couldnt give a toss about 'ice' when theyre building the awsome drivers cars that they constantly do

 

[lbrench]

I'm sure on page 7 i just read 'the underseat sub and the rest of the speakers are much better than the clio's'
If thats what you want then flol, i'm sure renaultsport couldnt give a toss about 'ice' when theyre building the awsome drivers cars that they constantly do

its about the whole experiance, how many people actualy drive there 200 on track and a 200 non cup i hardly 'an awesome drivers car' the cup though, thats better

 

[Christopher]

Both are great driver's cars. It's pretty much proven.

 

[lbrench]

but we talking about the sounds system, for me a hot hatch is something that is nice to drive day to day but when you want abit of fun be it on a track or down a twistie country road its there and will make u smile and reward you for driving it fast.

the abarth has this quality so did the 200 and so did the r26.

oh and the way the interior is built is great, no rattles or gaps, the exterior is great, no panel gaps or flexi panels, overall build quality is miles better than the 200 but still a way off the ze germans

 

[Munson]

The 182 hardly has the best steering in the world, let's be honest. The wheel is too big and the rack is very slow. Go from any normal road car to something like an Exige. It'll make most cars feel like a trifle.

 

[Christopher]

It's got a lot more feel than the 197 or 200 though, that's all I'm saying. That's just down to the mechanicals.

 

[Munson]

Oh yeah for sure. You get a fair bit of information through the rim, but far less than something like a 306Gti, and you have to twirl the wheel around like a fairy, just to overtake a Unicorn.

 

[seb]

video of it
sounds abit deisely when its not under pressure

sounds like a london taxi imo... :/ not really my cup of tea. LOL at when you pull off!

 

[Revels]

If my car sounded like that, I certainly wouldn't be posting vids of it.

Let's hope all the girls still want little 500's when you come to sell it.

 

[AlexS]

So one of the most important parts of a drivers car is lacking somewhat.

No too good. I'm surprised it doesn't have a "City" button.

My 100hp doesn't have a city button, just a sport button, which incidently I turned on the day I drove off the forecourt (its has remained on ever since!).

The Abarths are a nice overall package, the interior is better than a Renaultsport, (handstiched leather dash etc), the blue and me system is fantastic and much better than anything renault have come up with to date. MP3/ Ipod/ Bluetooth handsfree connectivity all from the steering wheel buttons as standard!
Having driven several examples a Panda 100hp or Twingo 133 provides a much more fun experience and is more of a drivers car, the Abarth though feels more special to drive/ live with and I would love one in Campovolo grey.

 

[Christopher]

Out of interest mate, why did you go for the 100HP over the Twingo? I tried to get her to drive the Panda, but she couldn't get over the looks. *****.

That said, I love our 133 now.

 

[kev182cup]

ibrench you need to stop talking about actually driving. for starters a r26 steering has no feel at all and you wouldnt be able to heel and toe if they were the most perfect pedals in the world. lol i think what your actually trying to do is justify the 500 when we all know in 6 months youll get something else thats the best in the world. IMO.

 

[AlexS]

Out of interest mate, why did you go for the 100HP over the Twingo? I tried to get her to drive the Panda, but she couldn't get over the looks. *****.

That said, I love our 133 now.

When I bought the panda there weren't very many 133's on the used car market, plus it was abit cheaper ( I paid £5k for an 07 plate) looking at about £8.5k for an early 133, plus the equipment is better on the Panda (bluetooth and climate as standard). I might have a 133 next though!

 

[Brett]

Glad you are enjoying the car, I worked on some of the Trofeo Race cars from the series at the start of the season along with my partners dad who also has a Campovola grey 500 Abarth.

The engine is the stand out feature of these cars. Abarth quote 133bhp & 155lb ft as standard, though we have found the make about 150bhp & 160lb ft as standard with a simple remap getting you 160bhp & 180lb ft torque.

I see you're on the Abarth Forum, the information you get on there is very narrow with only paid up sponsors getting their products discussed, so only TMC piggy back box for tuning etc so look elsewhere for more comprehensive views.

The car has some fundamental flaws which means I would not drive one.

The steering on the road cars is very poor. It's not even worth driving the car out of sport mode as it's comically lite, and in sport mode it artificially firms up but is devoid of feel & feedback, it's like driving a car with the steering wheel is attached to the rack by bungee cords.

The gearchange is just ok, the standard 6speed box as found in the lesser 500 1.4 n/a is sweeter but the alfa sourced 5 speed in the Abarth has too long a throw and IMO the articulation of the gearstick is wrong.

The pedals are poorly designed with the accelerator pedal being set at the same height as the brake pedal meaning under braking it is lower making heal & towing near impossible unless you dislocate your ankle.

You sit way to high in the standard unsupportive seats, the Sabelts are brilliant but at £1500 way overpriced.

Then the biggest issue, suspension. The rear of the car does and will hit it's bump stops on bumpy A&B roads with little effort making the back end skittish, the Essesse kit makes it worse, shorter springs make car have approx 25mm of suspension travel making it unacceptable. The best thing you can do to the car is remove the rear bumpstops (they just pull off) as the car does not become coil bound or reach the end of the damper travel so no damage can be done.

We developed in conjunction with AVO & Pulce Racing a coil over mono tube suspension set up that greatly improves the car, though it is £1000+vat plus fitting if you don't do it yourself. There is a cheaper twin-tube (inferior) Gaz set up for about £850 iirc which has taken them 4 attempts to get the front spring rates right as 1st time I saw it fitted to a car it was completely coil bound, very poor, not impressed. Though on recent Abarth trackday using my partners dads car as AVO/Pulce demonstrator & comparing to Gaz set up on an admittedly not very testing Seighford track was little to choose between them.

It may sound like I'm bring very harsh to the car, but it does have good qualities. The aforementioned engine is a cracker. The Trofeo cars run standard engine with nothing more than the Garrett turbo from the Punto Essesse fitted and 3" turbo back exhaust system & with only 1.3bar of boost make 215-220bhp & 240lb ft & apart from people downshifting to 2nd rather than 4th spinning engine unto 10500 rpm and smashing the valve buckets there have been no failures. It's rumored engine on standard internals is good for 250+bhp which is brilliant from a 1.4 that will return 40+ mpg all day long.

The brakes are very strong though standard pad compound will fade if used with enthusiasim.

But as a standard package it's not as quick as my Trophy & therefore can't be as quick as the 200 or Megane you previously owned, but they are good fun & low down torque makes them feel quick & though you get no feedback the cars do produce very high levels of grip.

And the standard kit level is good, Blue & Me plus the Interscope soundsystem with built-in subwoofer etc.

Good write up that mate. 250bhp+ from a 1.4 on standard internals is seriously impressive to be fair.

 

[Y7 ADW]

That is mint. I love these, a car you don't see many of. I would have gone for the Grey though, saw one yesterday and it looked stunning!

 

[SaraJ]

I like it, but i wouldn't buy one

OH works opposite Ferrari, is there a special edition that people call the 'Ferrari Edition'? It sounds immense (much better than that vid ) and they use them as courtesy cars/works cars i believe?

 

[Louism]

Yes there is a Ferrari one as Fiat own them.

I love the black ones

 

[Christopher]

When I bought the panda there weren't very many 133's on the used car market, plus it was abit cheaper ( I paid £5k for an 07 plate) looking at about £8.5k for an early 133, plus the equipment is better on the Panda (bluetooth and climate as standard). I might have a 133 next though!

£5k?! That's amazing. We paid £9k for our last August and it had 4k on the clock. Capsicum Red, Cup Pack, Audio Pack.

You can pick them up for under £7k now though.

 

[lbrench]

gave her a clean today and took some photos whilst it was sunny

fiddling with the settings

 

[Tunst]

Looking good mate, would love a go in one of these to see how good they actaully are...

I also echo the above lose the funking thing from the rear view...

 

[lbrench]

i think it just jazzs up the inside of the car abit

 

[MattT]

I like these, but it'd be a tough choice between this and a RS133 - I'd imagine there's a lot of difference in price too!

Just out of interest, what's the 1.4 like mpg wise?

 

[AlexS]

^^^^^ low 30's...

 

[leeds_182]

Nice looking machine.

I guess it's a bit more show and a little less go compared to the Clio and meg.

 

[MattT]

As low as that? I'd have thought (hoped) for high 30s, maybe creeping into the 40s.

 

[lbrench]

As low as that? I'd have thought (hoped) for high 30s, maybe creeping into the 40s.

I have done 230 miles in mine and my trip A which I reset when I got the car says 37.8mpg and when it's loosened up 40-47mpg is easily achievable

 

[Louism]

i think it just jazzs up the inside of the car abit

"Too Jazzy"?

Looks great dude, as i said i think they are sweet. I look forward to the next car you buy cos i always enjoy reading