Ph1 revival

[barnesautos]

The bodge is still there. it basically bypasses the relay and provides a permanent 12v to the coil pack. To be honest, it may remain long term depending on what amperage the coil pack pulls.

The potential fallout would be adding a drain to the battery but the feel appears to cut out when key off.

I cut the battery isolator when I leave the car so in this case it would be fine either way.

Couple of things , if you’ve shunted to the perm power then it will drain as coil pack will remain powered , but if you shunt to the ignition side power then it’ll turn off . But as you say , those two different circuit's are protected by different fuse ratings so be cautious.

Getting back to your issue , I suspect that the relay control wire which is an Earth control via the ecu ,that wire needs to be checked for continuity and resistance.
Fuel pump controlled earth by Pin 68 of ECU. ORANGE wire.

 

[Struggler]

I've shunted to the perm live. bridging to the switch could draw too much current for the wiring and blow a fuse. I turn the battery isolator off when the ignition is not on so it wont drain the battery. But yes, i should probably find a more appropriate solution.

Interesting to know that the relay is controlled via the earth. I will have to find which pin on the ECU that will be.

Note that this is a ph1 that has slightly different pinning on the ECU - also I am using a GEN90 aftermarket ECU. The fuel pump is controlled by pin9 rather than pin68 but i was getting 12v at this pin. But it is the coil pack relay that is the issue, is this on the same circuit?

 

[barnesautos]

I've shunted to the perm live. bridging to the switch could draw too much current for the wiring and blow a fuse. I turn the battery isolator off when the ignition is not on so it wont drain the battery. But yes, i should probably find a more appropriate solution.

Interesting to know that the relay is controlled via the earth. I will have to find which pin on the ECU that will be.

Note that this is a ph1 that has slightly different pinning on the ECU - also I am using a GEN90 aftermarket ECU. The fuel pump is controlled by pin9 rather than pin68 but i was getting 12v at this pin. But it is the coil pack relay that is the issue, is this on the same circuit?

Yes the fuel pump relay also sends the power to the coil pack, so dual function relay.
Yes pin 9 , I should have known lol , I run a ME221in my Ph1.

Yes check pin 9 then back to the relay.

 

[Struggler]

Short update and unfortunately not a good one. I was a bit concerned how much it was chuffing out the oil breather when I got it started so run a compression test...

Cylinder 1: 50psi
Cylinder 2: 175psi
Cylinder 3: 180psi
Cylinder 4: 175psi

Checked and rechecked cylinder 1 hoping I had done something wrong. Even put a cap of oil down the bore as a big jump after doing so indicates piston rings, it jumped to 125psi so I think its the rings that a dead.

Head has obvious just been reworked and leak tested, it could be that I installed the head gasket incorrectly but I think it's the rings... The one thing I didn't do!

So it will be engine back out again to change them. Never changed rings before and unsure if I should change them all or just the affected one, and is honing the box and absolute must? Can I do it all without dropping the crankshaft?

Pretty gutted tbh given how much work I had done to get to this part, only to have to backtrack and pull the engine again!!

 

[MAXRUNDOWN]

That's disappointing.. how long has the engine been sat? It could be a stuck ring so you could try letting it sit with some penetrating oil in the cylinders for a day or so but it's usually wishful thinking.

Looking back at the pics on pg1 the bores don't look good, I definitely wouldn't put new rings in it without honing, it may need at least quite an aggressive hone to get those marks out.

 

[Struggler]

To be honest, bottom ends are not my strong point, would you be able to elaborate on your last comment about the bores not looking good? are you referring to the slight pitting on cylinder 4? As that one was still coming up with good pressure.

Cylinder 1 was showing a little corrosion at the top but i would have thought these would be above the rings.

Finally - is it a terrible idea to just change the rings (and hone) on the affected piston? Or would i need to suck it up and change them all? (with maybe some 197 pistons ).

 

[YorkshireKyle]

Put some 197 pistons in whilst you're in there

You'd be daft not to. The rings are the same for all F4R iirc

 

[MAXRUNDOWN]

Cylinders are numbered from the flywheel end.. which is the low cylinder? There are some concerning marks on 1 and 4

What did the face of the block look like when you put the head on because in that pic it's minging?

You can see where the top ring stops with the piston at TDC from the ring of carbon at the top 10mm or so of the cylinders, your corrosion definitely is in the swept area of the ring(s).

You could pull the head off and try to dingle ball hone the bad cyl in situ but why risk It? I'm very much of the opinion of 'do it nice or do it twice' if that was mine I'd be getting the block honed (if the corrosion will hone out while staying within the service limit for piston-bore clearance, which TBH I would be sceptical of) and refaced and go again.

 

[Brigsy]

Looks like the corrosion on the top of cyl 1 is pretty bad. Prob be rebore and up a size in pistons or liners in the block to return to stock size.

 

[Struggler]

Is the 197 block the same? Seen someone selling a rebuilt block on eBay at the moment.

 

[YorkshireKyle]

Nah the 197 block is different

 

[Struggler]

Damn, OK, will speak to my machine shop and see what they think.

I'd love to be able to get away with a hone and new rings (and 197 pistons) but lets see.

 

[Struggler]

For reference, this is a close up of the affected cylinder that i found

 

[MAXRUNDOWN]

yeah that's not honing out.. what's going on with the piston crown just up from the inlet valve pocket, is that debris or a piece missing?

get a second opinion from the machine shop but given the cost of fitting liners, or buying +0.25 pistons you may be better off finding a short engine that doesn't need that work and would just get away with a deglaze hone and refacing

 

[Brigsy]

Defo needs taking up a size with the pitting.

 

[Struggler]

Im going to say likely a piece of debris. later picture of the same cylinder shows it not there.

Annoyingly i didnt take any better pictures than that.

 

[Struggler]

So had a little think about this, I'm away for a while so will potentially revise as time goes on but, as I see it, there are a few options:

1. Hone the current block with a home honing kit and upgrade to 197 pistons and new rings - I know this is probably a dead end, but since I'm going to pull the engine and remove the head there doesn't seem to be much point not giving this a quick go before I go more drastic and obviously could be a cheap fix. Will need to get my head around bore sizing and taper etc. I'm an automotive engineer by trade so surrounded by people who have done this a lot in their years (though i dying breed sadly).
2. Assuming the above fails I will take it to a machine shop and see what they can do, if all the imperfections can be removed without going up a piston size then I will do that and again throw in some 197 pistons and new rings. If not then it will be up a bore size and new pistons. Obviously this is the most expensive solution because you're basically going forged internals at that point.
3. New block - I will keep an eye out while I'm away to see if a replacement block comes up. However I am not completely sure it will work out that much cheaper. As mentioned a few times in the thread I would at least want to upgrade to 197 pistons if the engine is open (set on ebay for £210) and new rings (£150) and the cost of honing the block. New pistons will come with rings around the £650 and some of that delta should come back if I sell the full engine down the line.

Question #1 - I have some 422 cams here but if i go with option 2 (or maybe even 1) I may be able to get away with using. would mean a few more horses. I know 421s are the most aggressive you can on stock internals but what about 197 pistons and/or offerings from wosner?

Question #2 - Assuming going up a bore size - are there any pistons that can be used more cost effectively than the forged option? Can oversized rings be used with the standard pistons as an alternative?

Question #3 - How strong are the stock rods? Is it the case that one would be a fool to upgrade to forged pistons without forged rods? This is starting to get expensive!

 

[Struggler]

womp womp!

Back from my various travels and did a great job at forgetting all about the car! but im back now and the weather is looking up so I've started stripping the engine down. Hoping next week to pull the engine and start stripping the block down to go off to a machine shop.

I have been keeping my eye out for a second block for a reasonable price and all I've managed to find are things like this, and to be honest I am not confident that this block would be any better than mine given that you can see surface corrosion on the bore already.

Still not 100% on my direction but might as well use the time to get the engine back out.

 

[YorkshireKyle]

I might have another block if needed. Unknown condition, I was gonna turn it into a table

 

[Struggler]

Appreciate it, but I feel like i might as well stick with my own block unless i find one fresh out the car with confirmed compression...

 

[chazza114]

I'd just buy something like this personally, you know it has good compression as it made good power on the dyno:

https://cliosport.net/threads/clio-172-f4r-engine-187bhp.854937/#post-12817731

 

[Struggler]

That would just end up wasting all of the mods ive done on the engine already though. If i had room I'd consider getting that as a second engine while I fix my one and just swap them back later... If i had the space.

 

[Struggler]

Not sure if its a good thing or a bad thing being able to pull one of these engines in about 2 hours.

Either way, it out now and I got the car back to a state of rolling, need to get some CV ends to protect the wheel bearings.

Still had a lot of light left so whipped the head off to have a better look at all the bores

This is the cylinder that was causing all the problems. Clearly identifying bore damage isnt my strong point so any comments on these I am interested in.

If i dont have any plans at the weekend I will strip the block down and take it to a machine shop to see what they say about it.

 

[MAXRUNDOWN]

That corrosion/pitting is quite bad, the biggest off the shelf forged piston you can get for an F4R is 84mm (stock is 82.7) so that only gives you about 0.6mm depth on the cylinder wall for that to clean up with an overbore. If you're committed to keeping that block you may end up having to fit a liner to at least one cylinder

 

[Struggler]

Thanks,

Once the machine shop has a look i will decide. I'm not necessarily committed to keeping this block, but anything I can find online will need most of the same work anyway (hone and a face minimum) so may as well stick with this block until I know its a dead end.

 

[Struggler]

Spent some time getting the engine stripped yesterday evening to some interesting results. Really hoping there are some guides for reassembly...

A lot of these pictures are mainly to help me remember where stuff goes and what way around it goes. These little thing intrigued me a little. If someone can let me know what they are and what they do that'd be wonderful!

First time having the crank out. happy with the general condition too!

Right now for the interesting bit. Got the pistons out for inspection, and cylinder 1 was a little strange...

looking at one of the good pistons first, rings are nice and free and float around in their groove

The piston in cylinder 1 (where the compression was down) was completely different. Rings are both basically stuck in the groove. This is likely the true root cause of the issue that I was having. No spring in the ring at cold means no compression seal what so ever.

The engine block is in the back of my car, going to take it to a shop anyway for inspection but there is a greater chance now that the bore was never the problem (even if it doesn't look great). Worth noting that all the corrosion you can see in the pictures cannot be felt even with a fingernail, I have a renewed hope that they will clean up with a good hone and I may be able to get away with just new rings.

That being said I would probably still go for 197 pistons at the very least and still considering going forged and trying to sell on my 421 cams in favour of the 422s I also own.

 

[MAXRUNDOWN]

the horseshoe shaped things are the crankshaft thrust bearing, they set the crankshaft end float and take up axial load, the stuck rings definitely are a big contributor to your lack of compression. I still wouldn't put it back together with bores like that though

 

[Struggler]

Thanks Max, do I need new thrust bearings and to set them correctly or can I put my ones back in? It sounds like it is important what side they go in, so perhaps I've screwed up a little taking them straight out.

And don't worry, I will take the block to a machine shop for measurement and at least a hone.

 

[MAXRUNDOWN]

yeah you'll want to replace them while it's apart (they're only about £10 a set), and check/confirm end float on completion with a DTI and magnetic base

 

[Struggler]

Update! So I finally got the block back, taken up to 83mm bore measured to the actual pistons I ordered. Took a little longer as they needed to wait for the pistons to arrive to start work to get them perfect.

Look at these beauties! rings all gapped also by the machine shop

I'm sure someone's going to give me s**t for high comp pistons on standard rods, but the cost of this project is already spiralling a little. Lots of turbo kits to take the standard bottom end to ~230bhp+ so I assume its probably fine.

Bottom end getting reassembled, replaced the e-torx bits with cap heads to make things nicer:

what a thing of beauty!

Head back on! I invested in a snap on E14 torx bit for the head bolts and it fit so much better, made putting the head on a lot easier (though obviously still stressful)

Camshafts in! These are the 5503422 - I bought these a while ago before realising they couldn't be used on a standard bottom end, but once I realised I was going new pistons I was back to using these and ended up selling the 421s.

Some will be pleased to see that I have used the correct Renault gasket stuff this time for the rocker cover!

And she's back together! I don't have a timing kit so hoping to pick one up at the weekend to fit the cambelt.

The only thing missing which is a little annoying is the oil gallery plugs. This ended up stopping me fitting the water pump. They have been delivered so I will knock them in before I put the engine back in.

So yeh, job this weekend is trying to get the engine back in the car! (again). Also need to fit the gearbox seal which I am terrified about, I bought two just in case I botch the first one.

 

[Struggler]

Didn't really take many photos today, but the goal was to finish the engine. Picked up some timing tools from a nice person who lent me some in the morning and set about getting her all timed up. Interestingly the horseshoe was a little tight just getting into one cam, not sure if the slot in the cam was too small but anyway,

Things were going very well, until they werent.

Following the 30NMN+90deg for both inlet and outlet in this case. First one tightened down fine, second one suddenly started to get looser as i was applying the final angle. The nut had decided to be some lovely french cheese!

You can't see it well from the photo but yeh, there was a lot of thread damage. I took the stud out also to clean up and it looks like its just the nut affected. This is my fault, i bought these cams second hand and should have just got new nuts. I think someone must have overtightened it in the past.

Thankfully for me facebook was to the rescue and a lovely person sold me a new one they had knocking about and i was back in the game.

And that was basically it. filled it with out and span the engine over a little to check oil was coming out of the oil filter hole and little things like that but otherwise I was done. In great time too!

Only other thing i did was whip the subframe off, just getting it off the list of things i will need to do tomorrow.

So yeh, engine back in the car tomorrow, which is exciting. basically caught back up to where I was a couple of months ago, but this time with much more compression!

 

[Bowz]

Of all the amazing work you've done, I've got a mundane question.

What bolts did you use for the sump? Those E8's are a PITA.

 

[Coops Mk1]

Great work, just read the full thread and what a rollercoaster!

Really hope it all goes back in fine now and you're on track before the end of the year!

 

[Struggler]

Of all the amazing work you've done, I've got a mundane question.

What bolts did you use for the sump? Those E8's are a PITA.

Yeh me too! I basically had to cut my old sump off because I ruined 5 of them. One thing I've learned is that e-torx sockets are not created equal! the higher end ones follow the doming on the head flange much better making it much harder to mash them up! I will never take my head off again without my trusty snap-on E-14 .

Great work, just read the full thread and what a rollercoaster!

Really hope it all goes back in fine now and you're on track before the end of the year!

Yes its been quite a time inefficient build hasn't it! I try not to think about the fact that I waited 12 weeks for some cars to arrive, only to sell them for about half what I paid after running them for less than a minute . Oh well, projects are boring when they go to plan!

 

[Struggler]

update

And a good one!

One thing I had to sort out earlier in the week as the exhaust. Picked up a modified scorpion exhaust a while ago, modded to take a 182 manifold on a 172 system. I might replace it a bit later as its not the prettiest but it'll do. It had an lambda sensor with the wires cut off just plugging a hole which I didn't like so had a go at getting it out. Spanner didn't work, blowtorch with spanner didn't work. Ended up having to cut it down and use an impact gun (I didn't have a 22mm deep socket). After about 15 seconds of mashing it came out... but took all the thread with it . Why could not just leave it alone! It looks like the sleeve where it was modified has gone behind the boss anyway so it was useless, but i checked and it wasn't air tight. Had to swing by a friends to get it all filled in.

Got up early Sunday to try and maximise the daylight!

Firstly gave the ports a little clean, I am hoping that this is just because it has been running very rich that I am seeing all this black soot inside the valves. it cleans off very easily.

Then came the dreaded gearbox seal! I've been reading up on these a lot so was quite anxious about doing it. I ended up putting the seal in a little and running three bolts for the flywheel down to push it some of the way straight, then just tapped around the edge until I dared to stop. This is the finished article, also installed some new oil gallery plugs as the machine shop removed them for cleaning.

I basically went until the ribs on the outside of the seal disappeared into the block and the inner seal is just past the chamfer on the end on the crankshaft. Ended up being ~3mm proud. No visible leaks yet...

Then to be honest it feels like there's not much point me posting pictures, it's just a repeat of the post I made earlier in the year!

Well you're getting them anyway!

pulling the big man out of retirement again for some crane action!

And bosh! in she goes! all before lunch!

Then spent the afternoon just fitting as much as I could with the light I had.

I did have a go at starting it, but I had put a cheap 150A circuit breaker near the battery which kept tripping. Interesting that it didn't do this on the previous build. Perhaps the higher compression ratio was making the starter pull harder, or the voltage drop in the wiring was causing the current pull to spike, maybe the breaker was just a piece of s**t! Anyway, ordered an actual inline fuse holder. Will experiment with some different fuse sizes at some point.

New fuse holder in, oil circulated a little and she started easily first time. Still making a bit of a pop when it catches and running pretty lumpy due to the map being completely wrong but yeh! She runs! which i was pretty chuffed with!

A lot quieter this time since it actually has an exhaust on! still quite scared of it as its the first time I've build an engine to this level!

So once it was full of gearbox oil, I sheepishly put it into gear and lifted the clutch and she moved! for the first time in about 15years she actually moved until her own steam!

I know I probably shouldn't have with no coolant in it but drove it to the end of the drive to have a proper was for the first time in a long time!

So yeh! she actually lives!! Still a lot of things to do. I've ordered all the bits to fit a cooling (oil and coolant) system and the new aux belt should arrive next week (the one I ordered was too short). Also don't let the pictures fool you, the bodywork is pretty rough. Arches are showing rust just out of view, dents all over the sop and some bubbled paint on the ally bonnet. I might spend some time (money) getting it sorted but it is a track build at the end of the day, is there any point?

There's still lots of other little things to do. You might notice that one of the aerocatches is open, that wont move! throttle cable is a bit horrible and the bumped side mounts have torn off so might need to go for some bumper bands etc etc. And then there're the problems I've not even found yet!!

Anywaaay, thanks for reading!

 

[Coops Mk1]

Congratulations always nice to see something running and moving under it's own steam that hasn't for a long time!

Worry about the bodywork later imo, get her driving reliably and send it

 

[MAXRUNDOWN]

Congratulations, frustrating that you had to pull it out and do it again but you've ended up with something much better