Power Steering Pump: How Loud is Too Loud?...

[JimF]

As above really.

Boiled the power steering fluid on track last summer and ended up bursting the pressure sensor. The pump pretty much ran dry, and was driven about 10 miles until it was refilled with new fluid (i.e. I drove it to Halfords, not 10 miles on track). Also, because I had many many miles to drive home, I put a tube of PSF leak-stop in.
Got home, changed the leaky sensor, topped up the fluid, and forgot about it. Drove it once or twice, but a house purchase and a new daily distracted me.
Fast forward to a couple of months ago, my daily was off the road so I started using the Clio again. It drove fine but the pump was noisy. Daily got fixed, no trackdays booked, forgot about it.

Was using a couple of weeks ago and really noticed how noisy the power steering pump is. Total supercharger whine. It doesn't really change with how much you turn the wheel, more revs dependant. You can sit there with the steering wheel centred, and rev the engine, and it whines like it has a blower.
Tried taking a video but it wasn't too easy to hear, but its definitely loud.

Is the pump knackered? I've got Blyton in August so want it sorted before then.

 

[R3k1355]

Yes, it's knackered.

 

[JamesBryan]

Yeah that doesn't sound like it'll last much longer.

 

[R3k1355]

Also get a power steering cooler fitted, so you don't f**k the next one up doing the same thing.

 

[JimF]

I was considering a power steering cooler after it happened actually. Good to know I wasn't miles off with that thought, but I want to ask a really stupid question:

Obviously in the case of an oil cooler, it's fitted into a complete circuit and its pumped round and circulated etc.
Does a power steering cooler not just cool the stationary fluid in the cooler and nothing else? I've seen ones tee'd off just below the reservoir. It's not like its constantly being pumped round like coolant... Or do you tee the return from the rack or something? Am I making sense? If the cooler is plumbed from below the reservoir then the fluid will just be flying through the rack and pump etc, and still be roasting hot...

Am I wildly missing the point after too much decorating this weekend? You know when you overly concentrate on something and then it stops making sense? Thats me, now.

Also, is it correct that the pumps aren't made anymore? If so, what's my best course of action? I don't fancy an electric rack, so do I need to loop it and grow some muscles for parking?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

I was considering a power steering cooler after it happened actually. Good to know I wasn't miles off with that thought, but I want to ask a really stupid question:

Obviously in the case of an oil cooler, it's fitted into a complete circuit and its pumped round and circulated etc.
Does a power steering cooler not just cool the stationary fluid in the cooler and nothing else? I've seen ones tee'd off just below the reservoir. It's not like its constantly being pumped round like coolant... Or do you tee the return from the rack or something? Am I making sense? If the cooler is plumbed from below the reservoir then the fluid will just be flying through the rack and pump etc, and still be roasting hot...

Am I wildly missing the point after too much decorating this weekend? You know when you overly concentrate on something and then it stops making sense? Thats me, now.

Also, is it correct that the pumps aren't made anymore? If so, what's my best course of action? I don't fancy an electric rack, so do I need to loop it and grow some muscles for parking?

Negative - you are not making sense.

The cooler goes into the low pressure line between reservoir and pump so fluid is always going through it.

I need to fit a cooler also, I plan to fix it to the crash bar behind the grill so it gets some airflow across it, on the pump side of the engine the low pressure line looks pretty easy to modify.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Not a Clio (obvs) but something like this:

 

[JimF]

Perfect thanks! I'm up to speed now I think lol. That's where I'd planned to mount it as well.
Next question is.... Are the pumps still available? If not, can you rebuild them?

 

[JamesBryan]

@Touring_Rob posted in another thread recently about a Nissan pump which appears to be identical to the Renault one, now that the oem pump is no longer available.

 

[JimF]

Ah s**t yes! I remember that now. Commence searching!

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Perfect thanks! I'm up to speed now I think lol. That's where I'd planned to mount it as well.
Next question is.... Are the pumps still available? If not, can you rebuild them?

Technically they can be rebuilt, new vanes, bearing sleeve, pressure valve.. Theres a company on ebay that offer refurbished pumps, what they actually replace is another question.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Technically they can be rebuilt, new vanes, bearing sleeve, pressure valve.. Theres a company on ebay that offer refurbished pumps, what they actually replace is another question.

I think this is the company that most will use tbh - the pump I got from them was noisy out the box which really annoyed me as they aren't a 20min job!

This is the eBay refurb place:

Pardon our interruption...

www.ebay.co.uk

The pump its self is a very common pattern, Renault, Nissan and a few others used them...

This is the Nissan part (which carries a Renault part number):

Nissan Power Steering Pump Assembly Genuine 4911000Q0F | eBay

Genuine Nissan Part 4911000Q0F. This is a genuine Nissan Power Steering Pump. Nissan part number 4911000Q0F is manufactured to the highest quality by the manufacturer. Power Steering Pump Assembly. Power Steering Pump.

www.ebay.co.uk

If I was buying another I would probably buy the TRW or Meyle pump from Autodoc...

 

[JimF]

Thanks, I've had both those on my watch list but the second one is out of stock, and the first one I've not much confidence in, as Beauvais Motorsport said.
Onto Autodoc!

 

[JimF]

Also, most pumps are stated for cars without AC, are these just Cup only pumps then?

 

[jody391]

I think this is the company that most will use tbh - the pump I got from them was noisy out the box which really annoyed me as they aren't a 20min job!

This is the eBay refurb place:

Pardon our interruption...

www.ebay.co.uk

The pump its self is a very common pattern, Renault, Nissan and a few others used them...

This is the Nissan part (which carries a Renault part number):

Nissan Power Steering Pump Assembly Genuine 4911000Q0F | eBay

Genuine Nissan Part 4911000Q0F. This is a genuine Nissan Power Steering Pump. Nissan part number 4911000Q0F is manufactured to the highest quality by the manufacturer. Power Steering Pump Assembly. Power Steering Pump.

www.ebay.co.uk

If I was buying another I would probably buy the TRW or Meyle pump from Autodoc...

Bump on this thread I’ve fitted a power steering cooler as I too had a boil over at Cadwell.
And I too bought a re con one from the same place on EBay.
Now mine is noisy when you start the car, lock to lock bleed and drive and clears in a few minutes and no noise!
Now is it going to clear or get worse? Or should I get back to them to complain!
Painful!

 

[R3k1355]

Has this lock to lock bleed problem been since the cooler went on or has it always happened with the recon pump?

 

[jody391]

I did the pump and cooler.
I’ve tried a check valve since and it’s still the same.
Either it’s a draw issue (which I can’t see) or the pumps an issue.
But A it goes away B it’s a fresh recon!
Doesn’t make sense!

 

[R3k1355]

Can you return the system to stock to demonstrate it's definitely the pump?

 

[JamesBryan]

Is it from a cold start or all the time?

Just to eliminate it, but from cold the oil pump on these can be quite noticeable for a minute or so.

 

[jody391]

It doesn’t need to be cold but a good hour after getting warm and it does the same again.
I’ve pulled the line off and it’s full of power steering fluid so it’s getting it.
The cooler as you can see isn’t huge either!
I’m gonna have a play tomorrow but it’s disappointing if it’s the pump as I expect a pump to be re conditioned correctly.

 

[JamesBryan]

It doesn’t need to be cold but a good hour after getting warm and it does the same again.
I’ve pulled the line off and it’s full of power steering fluid so it’s getting it.
The cooler as you can see isn’t huge either!
I’m gonna have a play tomorrow but it’s disappointing if it’s the pump as I expect a pump to be re conditioned correctly.

Ahh right, definitely not the oil pump then.

Bit s**t that the recon pumps aren't very good 😔

 

[Robbie Corbett]

The noise is caused by air cavitating within the pump. It could well be that you (due to the position of the cooler for example) do have a small amount of air trapped within the system OR have a very small leak on one of the unions or pipes, small leaks can suck a little air into the system.

My recon pump was noisy all the time and extra noisy when I took it on track - when it was under load and the fluid started to get VERY hot. I do think they 'rebuild them' - clean them, refit various O-Rings etc. but I do not think they replace the pump vanes/re-machine the housing, or if they do they don't do a good job or use terrible quality parts.

Best bet would be to find a good used one, a Nissan version (might be more common now) or sack it off for EPAS. I do agree that fitting a cooler is a superb idea - most cars have some form of PS cooling even if its just a metal line with fins.

 

[Yarp]

I binned my PAS off altogether. The cars only weigh 800 grams so there’s no need for it. The steering feel is epic without it too

 

[jody391]

I binned my PAS off altogether. The cars only weigh 800 grams so there’s no need for it. The steering feel is epic without it too

What just delete the power steering pump mate? And leave the rack as is?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

What just delete the power steering pump mate? And leave the rack as is?

I think if you do that you also need to get a hose to bypass the rack, its just a hose that goes from the inlet to the outlet. And something needs to be done about the aux belt.

Lots have done it so I'm sure there is a ton of info on here.

 

[Yarp]

What just delete the power steering pump mate? And leave the rack as is?

Yeah, just loop 2 of the hoses back to each other on the rack. PMS sell a pulley to bin the pump and delete it completely.

 

[JimF]

Still not replaced mine yet. Barely driven the car. Wondering whether to bin off the PAS and just loop the rack. If the rack isn't in great condition, Whats the likelihood that looping it will make it s**t itself?

 

[JimF]

Thought I'd bump this rather than starting a new thread. I've had the PAS pump done along with the belts, threw the car round Blyton and boiled the fluid again, so definitely need to get this cooler fitted this winter.
Going off the above, am I right in thinking its as simple as cutting the low pressure PAS line, getting some hosetails, jubilee clips, hose and mounting the cooler?
As you can tell I've been overthinking it so not sure I'm making it more complicated in my head.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

I have some good quality hose and some connectors that I used for the return line a while back that you could have for beer money, I’m going to the my unit later today to have a look

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Thought I'd bump this rather than starting a new thread. I've had the PAS pump done along with the belts, threw the car round Blyton and boiled the fluid again, so definitely need to get this cooler fitted this winter.
Going off the above, am I right in thinking its as simple as cutting the low pressure PAS line, getting some hosetails, jubilee clips, hose and mounting the cooler?
As you can tell I've been overthinking it so not sure I'm making it more complicated in my head.

Pretty much yes. Access to the back of the pump is quite good, and relatively simple to take the hoses out to the front of the engine bay, behind the bumper/grill where the cooler can live.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

I just remembered the rez to pump line I/d couldnt be larger than a certain size and the pump and rez 'barbs' were different sizes so I had to have 3 different hose sizes to make it fit, I also fit a Jiffy-tite quick coupler. If I was doing this again Id just turn some adaptors on a lathe and stick to one hose size.

Its aeroquip hose btw, I also have spare aerospace fire sleeve, not sure what sizes I have left but Ill check..

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

@Touring_Rob This was around the time it all started for me, ambitious and determined... I set about and got a unit, spent £££££ with big dreams... now Im depressed with a s**t hairline, didn't really go how I thought it was going to

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Those quick release hose fittings do look fantastic though.... so there is that 😂

 

[jody391]

If you add the cooler line into this point it will still whine until bleed again.
I removed my cooler line from here and added it into the low pressure line from the rack before returning to the power steering header tank.
This way the feed to the pump is unchanged, you add some fluid due to the feed and return lengths, and your power steering will stay cool.
There was no more whine, (new pump added when installing the cooler) and the steering was great from there after Donoo, Blyton 3 times and Cadwell.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

That is the low pressure line which goes back to the reservoir- edit no it's not!

Either location will need bleeding, return to reservoir is better I agree but tapping into the low pressure feed line to the pump is very convenient!

You need a cooler with as little flow restriction as possible, so not the mishimito style ones.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

This -8 1/2" I/d hose is required, FC498-08 hose is the required spec for the vacuum rating but with large enough I/d
. Both the same hose just either blue or black (much harder to get blue fc498-08.)

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

The lack of space by the rack is grim, and very close to the exhaust. This pic I posted was the return line back to the Rez and conveniently it has a coupler just before the Rez making it easy to plum a cooler.

The 2 lines without sleeve by the rack pic are the inlet/outlet pump lines (quick disconnect before in easy accessible location far from exhaust before they get near the rack (and heat) I have sleeve on the rack high pressure line and return lline.

It was a lot of work and I achieved nothing apart for now I have some cool motorsport parts.

I’ve said it before…. Your pas is over worked because the pinion torsion bar is not designed for track work. You will never have a good steering system and there was always be excess play in the steering. You need a thicker/stiffer torsion bar so that the ratio of manaul assist increases and the power assist decreases taking away stress from the pump, there’d be less play/dead zone as well and a better feeling steering. Or just go manual steering…

That is the low pressure line which goes back to the reservoir- edit no it's not!

Either location will need bleeding, return to reservoir is better I agree but tapping into the low pressure feed line to the pump is very convenient!

You need a cooler with as little flow restriction as possible, so not the mishimito style ones.

Exactly this, otherwise you could starve the pump. I have the info on the computer I’ll post in a bit.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

@Touring_Rob 1/2” I/d minimum

 

[jody391]

The lack of space by the rack is grim, and very close to the exhaust. This pic I posted was the return line back to the Rez and conveniently it has a coupler just before the Rez making it easy to plum a cooler.View attachment 1664563



View attachment 1664561

The 2 lines without sleeve by the rack pic are the inlet/outlet pump lines (quick disconnect before in easy accessible location far from exhaust before they get near the rack (and heat) I have sleeve on the rack high pressure line and return lline.

View attachment 1664562

It was a lot of work and I achieved nothing apart for now I have some cool motorsport parts.

I’ve said it before…. Your pas is over worked because the pinion torsion bar is not designed for track work. You will never have a good steering system and there was always be excess play in the steering. You need a thicker/stiffer torsion bar so that the ratio of manaul assist increases and the power assist decreases taking away stress from the pump, there’d be less play/dead zone as well and a better feeling steering. Or just go manual steering…



Exactly this, otherwise you could starve the pump. I have the info on the computer I’ll post in a bit.

Where did you get your dry breaks from Rob?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Not me sir, that hose p**n if owned by @Beauvais Motorsport