Project Lightweight, Trackday Clio 172

[Usr117063]

See if the device you are taking the pictures on is set to a lower resolution?

Yup the arches are the limiting factor unless you want to cut them back. I think overall though the change to sepherical bearings and better suspension geomtry will be night and day, well I say better I havnt compared the laguna ones next to the clio ones yet so I cant get an idea of the differences, but people have said they are better.

 

[scullyg40]

We'll see. I have a trackday next Saturday, and the 1st of April there is another one at the same track (Assen). Ideally, I'd like to do the mod inbetween these trackdays to test the difference on the same track.

 

[scullyg40]

One set of Cup wishbones with PMS strenghtening plates and Powerflex black bushes ready to be mounted.

 

[scullyg40]

I had a really really good day at Assen yesterday. The weather was good all day, a few drops in between sessions, but that was about it. The TT Circuit had laid down a new layer of tarmac, and they did a really good job, hopefully Zandvoort will do this as good as Assen did.

I did 4 sessions, I always try to do the first session a bit easier, trying to build up pace progressively, but in lap 3 I already did a 2.09, while my personal best was 2.11.

We left home on friday, because we spent the weekend away with my parents and sister.

My father joined me for the day, because quitely he really likes what I am doing.

First session, I queud up behind something nice.

I kept it in sight for quite some time, in other words, the driver was able to or didn't want to go really fast, which I can fully understand, as you don't want to end up in the gravel with something like this.

But anyway, the Clio went like a bullet, I haven't got a clue why, but I managed to do eacht session below 2.10, with a new personal best of 2.06 min.

Here's a video with 80 kg's of unneeded ballast.

 

[scullyg40]

Work in progress.

I modified the BC Racing struts with the Pure Motorsport camber adjustable strut mounting plates to be able to fit the Laguna hubs.

Pretty happy with the welds.

I've also welded up the ABS holes in the Laguna hub, so that I can modify the Laguna hub to fit the original ABS sensors, as the ABS sensor is different, and I'd like to keep my ABS for now.

Also, I'd like to show the difference between the standard hubs, and the Laguna hubs. You can clearly see that the steering arm and wishbone pivot points are standard already quite a bit lower than on the original ones. Also, the bearings are much bigger. And what can't be seen is that the Laguna hubs will give 12 mm more trackwidth per side than the original ones.

 

[Usr117063]

Looks like you get anti ackerman with the laguna hubs?

 

[scullyg40]

Looks like you get anti ackerman with the laguna hubs?

I haven't got a clue. Only thing I know about Ackermann is that the inner wheel turns more than the outer, so anti-Ackermann is that the outer turns more than the inner? How do you see this, and why would this occur?

 

[Usr117063]

To tell you the truth I cant quite comment exactly what it is doing. I see the tie rod angle might be behind the rack, but there are other factors. I reckon it will drive way better though, I was looking at spacing the rack out to reduce the ackerman a bit.
IIRC @PhillipM knows this stuff?

 

[scullyg40]

I received my new bearings, so I took the hubs with me to work, and pressed them in.

And then you have 2 refurbed Laguna hubs.

Next is mocking them up to determine the positions for the ABS sensors. After that, all the modifications are done, and I can start mounting everything back, and start with the alignments, such as caster and bump steer.

 

[Chambers_RS]

I’ve been thinking about doing the Laguna hub 🤔

Will watch how you get in with them 🧐👍🏻

 

[scullyg40]

I’ve been thinking about doing the Laguna hub 🤔

Will watch how you get in with them 🧐👍🏻

All the modifications are pretty much done, just got one ABS sensor to fit. Then I can mount it all back, and see how much caster I can take, and tune the bumpsteer, then it's off to alignment and I should be good to go.
1st of April is my next trackday. Hoping for good weather and a noticable difference.

 

[scullyg40]

I did my first mock-up on the right hand side.

First impression is that it's wider than before.

I also need to ditch my inner arch liners.

I also had a slight setback at the other side.

 

[scullyg40]

So I had to get a new lower mount, luckily it was available. Modified it the same day that it arrived.

And mounted shortly after.

I also got a set of drawers from my mother, so I had to raise the lower board of my workbench, but this gave me also the opportunity to get the compressor and the welder underneath the workbench, creating some room in the garage.

Now, after mounting everything back, and roughly setting toe and camber, all that was left to do was adjust the bumpsteer. Or was there?

Turned out, I had massive contact with the most caster setting. I put the plates on with the least caster, still contact. Now I had a couple of options, which are putting in some bump stops, raising the car, or doing it the right way, modifying the wheel wells.

'Luckily', there aren't any trackdays at the moment, so I decided for the best option.

Ripped the front end apart.

My issue.

And after.

This is with the wheel jacked up to the max, the first picture isn't. The spring coils are lowered, so there is no spring force counteracting.

Welded it up.

Then on to the other side.

I also needed longer brake lines.

And lastly a picture of my daily. Since the gym is closed, I have got a new sport/hobby.

 

[scullyg40]

Behold, my DIY bump steer setup.

Results were very interesting and pleasing.

First measurement is without any shims at all, resulting in a bump steer of around 5 cm's.
Then I thought, let's do the other extreme, and fit all 10 shims. This resulted in a bump steer of just 1 mm.
For good measure, I also fitted 5 shims, which gave a result of somewhere in the middle, but I went with all 10 shims fitted of course. Let's hope that the other side will be just as easy.

 

[Usr117063]

Great work! But what is the bump steer when the wheel is turned

 

[scullyg40]

Great work! But what is the bump steer when the wheel is turned

That's a difficult question. 😁

 

[scullyg40]

Small update.

The car is back on the ground, brakes are bled, I washed it, and took it out for a small test run around the block. No strange noises in the suspension, it all seemed fine, so that's good.

Caster surely has increased a bit.

 

[Usr117063]

Is there any extra weight in the steering? I guess you didnt go fast enough to compare the difference.

 

[scullyg40]

I couldn't tell really. I only drove at low speed in 2nd gear. At this speeds, steering already was quite heavy before the conversion. Didn't really pay attention to it though, I was more interested in any unwanted noises or weird feelings throught the steering wheel etc. But the fact that I didn't notice any difference, also says something right?

 

[New2RS]

Great project, just read through it from start to finish.
I’d like to know more about the manual steering if you don’t mind?
How is it on track?
How is it for quickly correcting oversteer?
Cheers

 

[scullyg40]

Great project, just read through it from start to finish.
I’d like to know more about the manual steering if you don’t mind?
How is it on track?
How is it for quickly correcting oversteer?
Cheers

Thanks for reading. I'll get back to your question about the steering. I have a small oversteer correction on YouTube somewhere, I'll look it up. 😉👍

 

[scullyg40]

@New2RS I couldn't find the exact video with the oversteer moment, but you can look at my youtube channel, stefanschulte1 and try to find it yourself, I know it was at Meppen.

But to me the manual steering is absolutely fine. I can understand that in daily driving, it can be a bit uncomfortable, but on track, to me, it completely makes sense. Not heavy at all, and a really good feel of what is going on.

 

[New2RS]

Thanks. I’ll take a look. Keep up the good work.

 

[scullyg40]

I got the car alligned today, as I'll be going to Zandvoort this Saturday.

This is with the Laguna hubs, and the PMS roll centre correction kit. Camber is set to the max through the adjustable PMS welding plates, and the BC Racing top mounts, and caster is also set to the max with the PMS adjustable lower balljoint plates. I was expecting some bigger numbers, but I'm very interested to test this setup.

 

[Usr117063]

Its the luck of the draw with alignment on these cars (chassis made of cheese)

I went manual steering because I had problem with the epas column btw, I think its dangerous haha. Lots of grip as you just cant understeer the wheel its so heavy but an animal or someone runs out in the road you better pray the brakes stop you quick enough lol

 

[scullyg40]

Went to Zandvoort today, had a really really good day to say the least.

My wife went along for the day. Because of Corona, there were protocols to folow, but nothing major.

First session I wanted to take it easy to get used to the car again, and make sure nothing fell off. Fortunately nothing did. Because Zandvoort has been rebuild/modified for Formula 1, all my braking points were gone, didn't really pay attention to determine them again as well, so every lap was different. Basically, Zandvoort isn't my home track, and I only go there once, maby twice a year. As there were different corners on track, and my setup has changed, I thought, we'll focus on getting fast on Zandvoort next time and just have fun. Nevertheless, I managed to improve my personal best from 2.12 to 2.09, so pretty chuffed with that.

Unfortunately my camera decided that noise wasn't needed, so I will not upload any videos.

The roll centre correction is certainly noticable, but it's hard to describe. My biggest conclusion is that I need a diff as I have a lot of inner wheel spin on corner exits. I also have the issue that my car pulls to the right on hard braking, so this will need to be adressed. I can manage it, but it doesn't help with the confidence when going into Tarzan corner with 200 km/h.

All in all, I had a really good day, the car didn't brake in to pieces, I didn't die, and I even improved my personal best by a big margin. Oh, and I even drove around a BMW M4 in the banked corner before the straight (admittadly it was driven by a posh rich guy).

 

[hostler]

Had the same problem with the wheel turning when braking hard. Was a stuck caliper. Time to upgrade to Brembo's?

 

[scullyg40]

Had the same problem with the wheel turning when braking hard. Was a stuck caliper. Time to upgrade to Brembo's?

I'll first try to fix it the cheap and easy way. If that doesn't work and I need to change calipers, it might make sense to upgrade. I know you have a set that fits under 15's, and is just gathering dust. 😁😉

 

[hostler]

I'll first try to fix it the cheap and easy way. If that doesn't work and I need to change calipers, it might make sense to upgrade. I know you have a set that fits under 15's, and is just gathering dust. 😁😉

Spiders too actually I did mount them a few weeks ago though. I even updated my dead thread.

 

[scullyg40]

I had another great day at Assen today.

The weather was really good, a bit to good inside the car, but I'm not complaining.

Did 4 sessions, the car performed really well. But I wasn't able to get anywhere close to my personal best, even though I had more than a couple of clean laps. I guess it's down to the temperature? I did my previous best last februari.

Parked up behind a Ferrari, hoping to get some nice footage, but it was going really slow? I passed it after a couple of turns, expecting it to overtake me later, but it didn't. My mate who was watching also said it got passed a lot.

In this session I did a 2.09 which was the best lap of the day.

 

[hostler]

Nice driving!

 

[scullyg40]

Nice driving!

Thanks. 👍

 

[scullyg40]

Not much going on with the Clio with upgrades or maintenance, so just enjoy driving it I suppose. So I went to Zandvoort again yesterday.

The car performed really well, and had a blast.

 

[scullyg40]

As my Ferodo DS1.11 only lasted a year, I wanted to add some more brake cooling. I've basically thought about this since I have the damn car, as there is no real space to get a real air feed behind the discs, because there simply isn't enough room with the wheels on full lock.

Luckily, I have a splitter, and no more front mud guards, so this gave me room to figure something out. As I wasn't sure how much effect the big intakes have, I wanted to get the air right behind the brake disc, and the air pick-up in a high pressure area. I succeeded in both.

Basically it's just a pvc pipe with a 45 degree elbow mounted on the PMS wishbone plates, and a flexible hose going to the front of the bumper.

 

[hostler]

You gotta help me with my brake cooling sometime. I need to figure something out to direct the air directly onto the discs as well because having the air just come into the wheel well isn't cutting it.

 

[scullyg40]

It's not going to be easy to copy this for you, because I used the PMS Roll Centre kit and the PMS strengthening plates to mount the pvc pipe to. Also the splitter helps to keep the flexible pipe from hanging, and the splitter creates the high air pressure zone to feed the intake. The intakes themselves are mounted in the air dam, not the bumper.
So I used a lot of the previous mods, to get this working.
But if you have a set of wishbones with the PMS strentghening plates on, it might be possible? I'm not sure though.

 

[scruffydubber]

Work in progress.

View attachment 1454807

I modified the BC Racing struts with the Pure Motorsport camber adjustable strut mounting plates to be able to fit the Laguna hubs.

Pretty happy with the welds.

View attachment 1454808

Great project, I'm not sure how I've missed this one.
I understand the Laguna hubs are 65mm spacing, are they also wider where they bolt to the struts?
I've ordered all the parts today to go down the same route and now planning out the work in my head. I want to get as much castor as possible, after reading your thread I'm sure I'll need to mod the inner arch too. Mine catches occasionally as it is.

Thanks

 

[scullyg40]

Great project, I'm not sure how I've missed this one.
I understand the Laguna hubs are 65mm spacing, are they also wider where they bolt to the struts?
I've ordered all the parts today to go down the same route and now planning out the work in my head. I want to get as much castor as possible, after reading your thread I'm sure I'll need to mod the inner arch too. Mine catches occasionally as it is.

Thanks

Thanks, I'm not really sure if they are wider. Didn't notice it when I was working on them. Why do you want to know? If it's for the construction, I just bolted the plates on the Laguna struts to get the correct width.

 

[scruffydubber]

Why do you want to know? If it's for the construction, I just bolted the plates on the Laguna struts to get the correct width.

I currently have GAZ gold coilovers on the front, that section of the body looks a lot narrower than the BC's. On one of your pictures (maybe the angle) the Laguna hubs looked alot wider in this area.

 

[scruffydubber]

Oh also. I believe this setup widens the track 12mm (I'm not sure if total or each side) I see you noticed it was wider.

Are you using the same driveshaft? And if so have you experienced any problems with them and the increased width?
Thanks