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Real world cost of boost



Cup_Phil

Cup_Phil

Dan - no idea chap. Last time I was on track I had bilsteins and I hated them, too soft. I got a bargain on some virtually new KW V2's in October - fitted them November but it's had no insurance or mot since lol

I'm hoping to get it back on the road end of the month then head to Blyton for a play. I'll let you know

They are a LOT stiffer though you can tell just by rocking the car about. Solid
 
Jay Payne

Jay Payne

  172 Race Car
Just a thought but £3k is A LOT of trackdays. Why not get a diff (best thing we ever did to our car), some proper tyres, stiffen the suspension (if its being trailered everywhere) and enjoy.

As i say just a thought, id love some boost myself one day so i can see where your coming from
 
danh90

danh90

  Ph1 T
Yeah sound I'm planning on booking a late one at blyton in April too so ill let you know and we can head down if cars are ready..
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Danlp6 said:
I'll be keeping a close log of how much my conversion costs..
Click to expand...

TBH im sure the way you and andyrg are going with the VAG setup is far better value than a clio lump, just not so good for ease of doing in the first place.
 
Cup_Phil

Cup_Phil

Jay Payne said:
Just a thought but £3k is A LOT of trackdays. Why not get a diff (best thing we ever did to our car), some proper tyres, stiffen the suspension (if its being trailered everywhere) and enjoy.

As i say just a thought, id love some boost myself one day so i can see where your coming from
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE track days. But they're always £150+, plus £100 in fuel, and if I'm doing Anglesey/Oulton it's another £120 in fuel etc...
Then brake wear and tyres on top. Realistically for £3k you're talking 6 track days

I'd love to tow the car but that's a £1k trailer and a £400 towing license and I keep choking at the idea of spending £1500 on something I'll use 4 times a year.
I could rent a trailer but they're still £80 a weekend and I'd still need my towing licence etc...

It's a very expensive "hobby". I had planned to fully take the Clio off the road but this last year I've really just missed the weekends out in the moors hooning around with old mates.
So I decided to keep the dashboard, and a few luxuries in the car, and keep it MOT'able and use it more off track.

The £3k it will cost to boost, in real terms would buy me a trailer, a diff and maybe a set of tyres. OR 6 track days.
With that in mind £3k on a turbo conversion, £700 back for my ITB's and a summer spent playing around in the moors sounds a lot more fun :)

I still plan to swap the PAS for an EPAS rack and next winter the gearbox will get a rebuild and a diff without a doubt. But if I do that now the Clio will be off the road again for ANOTHER summer.
This way I think is best because it gives me an engine build project in the garage for the year, and keeps the clio on the road as a weekend toy :D

danh90 said:
Yeah sound I'm planning on booking a late one at blyton in April too so ill let you know and we can head down if cars are ready..
Click to expand...

That'd be good - a few of my mates have mentioned doing a late April Blyton day so could get 5 or 6 of us out
Plus it'd be good to throw my bodies up against your turbo and see what the difference is :D
 
Cub.

Cub.

ClioSport Moderator
Following this thread with interest, I may be facing a very similar conundrum later this year. Although its earlier than I was planning (poorly engine forces the decision) and I need to move house first so restrictive 'monies' at the moment unfortunately.

At Bedford Chips clio impressed me most with the way it's throttle control has been balanced. I hate turbo cars where it's either 'on or off' I.e. boost, lag, boost, lag etc. Chips had the same level of control as an N/A clio, able to hold throttle in corners and build power steadily. Mated to a good diff and it really was flying.

If I was to turbo, having that control would be a must. Problem is chip, I believe you only got it like that by spending many of your hours on the set up, and for me to pay someone to do that I am assuming it would be pricey.

Decisions, decisions. Phil - if you do sell the Bodies and management, PM me please as if its after the summer I would be very keen.
 
Cup_Phil

Cup_Phil

mark123 said:
What's the attraction of a 182 engine over the others? I'd have thought the ph1 larger exhaust ports would be best for a turbo out of the 1*2 lumps.
Click to expand...

Purely mileage mate - I figured it would be a lot easier to get a 60k 182 engine with fresh belts and dephaser, than a low mileage well looked after ph1 engine
If I was doing a full engine rebuild I'd buy a ph1 - but I don't have the budget for that really

Cub. said:
Following this thread with interest, I may be facing a very similar conundrum later this year. Although its earlier than I was planning (poorly engine forces the decision) and I need to move house first so restrictive 'monies' at the moment unfortunately.

At Bedford Chips clio impressed me most with the way it's throttle control has been balanced. I hate turbo cars where it's either 'on or off' I.e. boost, lag, boost, lag etc. Chips had the same level of control as an N/A clio, able to hold throttle in corners and build power steadily. Mated to a good diff and it really was flying.

If I was to turbo, having that control would be a must. Problem is chip, I believe you only got it like that by spending many of your hours on the set up, and for me to pay someone to do that I am assuming it would be pricey.

Decisions, decisions. Phil - if you do sell the Bodies and management, PM me please as if its after the summer I would be very keen.
Click to expand...

It's all about the mapping. My mates 106 Turbo is progressive and smooth, you can sit at 30 just like a normal road car, but on full chat it's an utter weapon.
There's too many mappers chase an insane peak BHP figure and end up with spikey boost.

The bodies will be for sale but it'll be around October when the boosted lump is ready I suspect
Can't make my mind up whether to sell the bodies with the omex as a kit (and maybe even my engine) as it's currently mapped by a BTCC mapper and making 195bhp. The map alone cost £450 so as a full kit someone could drop into their car it would sell well I think and I'd be tempted to get some management a bit more advanced than an Omex 600 for a turbo solution. But it will all depend on budget really.
 
Sir_Dave

Sir_Dave

ClioSport Trader
Cup_Phil said:
Purely mileage mate - I figured it would be a lot easier to get a 60k 182 engine with fresh belts and dephaser, than a low mileage well looked after ph1 engine
Click to expand...

Why dont you just use the Cup engine. They are fabled to make more power anyway, which that one did, totally standard 177bhp at SRR. More miles = more power imho.
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Cub. said:
Following this thread with interest, I may be facing a very similar conundrum later this year. Although its earlier than I was planning (poorly engine forces the decision) and I need to move house first so restrictive 'monies' at the moment unfortunately.

At Bedford Chips clio impressed me most with the way it's throttle control has been balanced. I hate turbo cars where it's either 'on or off' I.e. boost, lag, boost, lag etc. Chips had the same level of control as an N/A clio, able to hold throttle in corners and build power steadily. Mated to a good diff and it really was flying.
Click to expand...

Im so glad how many noticed that when I took them out! To me its the key thing about keeping the car useful. :)

TBH if the next time its out is a tiny track like llandow and its wet which is what is looking likely now, then even with the excellent control it offers its still going to be not really significantly quicker than a standard 172 im sure, as even in lesley's I am hardly ever on full throttle at llandow, probably only 25% of the track, lol.


If I was to turbo, having that control would be a must. Problem is chip, I believe you only got it like that by spending many of your hours on the set up, and for me to pay someone to do that I am assuming it would be pricey.
Click to expand...

No mate, the ECU that is on my car (the one Danny from 519 told mike from MWM he was wrong to use and was total rubbish, so I am glad Mike had the good sense to completely ignore that nonsense or I woudlnt have it now i'd have an omex probably which Mike uses a lot but cant do boost control as well) makes it VERY easy to setup that side of it, I spent about 20 minutes or so working out the scaling that I needed to use, and now that I have done that, I could literally teach you how to change the boost request table on my car yourself in half an hour and it would only take you literally a minute or so to actually make the changes.

In fact, im going to prove it. BigAsh is coming down to mine for a day or two before llandow and he has never done any form of mapping in his life, I will wipe the entire boost request table from my ECU, and when I see you wednesday evening, and at llandow on thursday, I will be driving it with the boost control table written by him tuesday night.

Im sure he will be up for that :)
 
Cub.

Cub.

ClioSport Moderator
I like the idea above, especially getting James to map it - lol. We'll talk more at Llandow mate. I'm still running mine, even if it expires on me whilst I'm there.
 
Cup_Phil

Cup_Phil

Sir_Dave said:
Why dont you just use the Cup engine. They are fabled to make more power anyway, which that one did, totally standard 177bhp at SRR. More miles = more power imho.
Click to expand...

Again purely to keep the car on the road while I build a 2nd engine

I suppose I could just buy the turbo bits and pile them all up in the garage during summer, then in October pull the cup lump out, paint it all up, replace bottom end shells and fit ARP bolts etc... but it's done 120k - surely it's a bit tired to be running 250+ bhp?

I just kinda like the idea of being able to take my time with a 2nd engine and get it all nice and clean and painted. Might even buy a 2nd gearbox to diff over winter too and then just drop the whole lot in as a unit

It's tempting though - the engine in my car is fecking awesome
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Danlp6 said:
Seeing as your leaving me now you'll have to teach me.
Click to expand...

I have taught several people to map over the years (thats actually how I originally met Mike from MWM in fact many years ago now although these days he could probably teach me a thing or three as he does more mapping than I do now), and you have as good a grasp of how engines work as any of them had so I am sure that wont be a problem, especially as I know you've actually already had some experience mapping in the past anyway, so it should come very easily to you :)
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Cub. said:
Lol - evening course at Chips, do we get homework? And a completion certificate?
Click to expand...

No but you get a uniform to wear:
31209.jpg
 
D

Dan@SJM

Chip-mk1 said:
I have taught several people to map over the years (thats actually how I originally met Mike from MWM in fact many years ago now although these days he could probably teach me a thing or three as he does more mapping than I do now), and you have as good a grasp of how engines work as any of them had so I am sure that wont be a problem, especially as I know you've actually already had some experience mapping in the past anyway, so it should come very easily to you :)
Click to expand...

Well, I improved a 'tuners' map on my old one lol.

Its the boost control aspect Im keen to learn.
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Danlp6 said:
Well, I improved a 'tuners' map on my old one lol.
Click to expand...

Indeed mate, if you recall correctly the first time I ever met you was when Dave asked me to look over it for you and it was actually really good already :)


Its the boost control aspect Im keen to learn.
Click to expand...

That really is a very easy part to teach, its a 3d table on the Mtech or autronic that I use a lot (output is WG duty, inputs are TPS and RPM), and on omex its an even simpler 2d table (cruder but still works, although I bin off their built in strategy and do it as a user configurable Aux output as then you can swap the input of the table from RPM to TPS, both are important and its better using something that does both but if you only have one then on a FWD car use TPS, on a 4wd car use rpm)
 
D

Dan@SJM

Chip-mk1 said:
Indeed mate, if you recall correctly the first time I ever met you was when Dave asked me to look over it for you and it was actually really good already :)




That really is a very easy part to teach, its a 3d table on the Mtech or autronic that I use a lot (output is WG duty, inputs are TPS and RPM), and on omex its an even simpler 2d table (cruder but still works, although I bin off their built in strategy and do it as a user configurable Aux output as then you can swap the input of the table from RPM to TPS, both are important and its better using something that does both but if you only have one then on a FWD car use TPS, on a 4wd car use rpm)
Click to expand...

I do Indeed remember that, shame I was restricted by my injectors! I expect I'll go for the mtec, It works really well on yours.

Chip-mk1 said:
Flol, that would certainly be worth seeing ;)
Click to expand...

flol, thought you'd like that.
 
Cup_Phil

Cup_Phil

Hahah I asked my misses if I could turbo the 172 and her exact words were "you b*****d I wanted to build a turbo'd 182"

So now we're in discussions about her sharing my car lol
 
D

Dan@SJM

Well mines getting my monaco, "as a tempoary solution" however shes now on about it being a long term! But I've been made to promise not to do anything to it. however if a cheap 1*2 comes up we'll buy it as a track car. Onto a keeper me thinks.
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Its not all good news though when you mrs is into clios.

First time Lesley drove mine on the road after the rebuild, she got a whopping 56 miles to just over 4 gallons of fuel, so just under 14mpg, expensive hobby having a petrol head as a mrs, lol
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
She'll need to learn in the 172 that the accelerator has more than an on and and off position unlike the KA, ha ha
 
R

Russ_16v

  53 Clio's & counting
Chip-mk1 said:
Its not all good news though when you mrs is into clios.

First time Lesley drove mine on the road after the rebuild, she got a whopping 56 miles to just over 4 gallons of fuel, so just under 14mpg, expensive hobby having a petrol head as a mrs, lol
Click to expand...


Tell me about it, Claire's car history has included a purple cammed Xr2 engined Fiesta, a Ph1 172, a LY 182 with both cup packs - and now we have sold her mk5 TDi and are on the hunt for something sporty again lol


TBH I can see the attraction of boost but it all falls onto the map - Chips drove fantastic, but others I have seen from 'tuners' have been terrible - like a massive lump of boost, then the power just drops off a cliff at 6k :dead:
 
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