Really want a 172 cup but...

[philmots]

you have completely missed my point, you seem to be trying to educate me in how abs works, i would imagine everyone on here knows so your not impressing anyone!

infact i cant even be bothered, im just going to leave it at im not fussed about having abs or not. and obviously wouldnt let it stop my buying the car.

 

[Diesel_Power]

Phil, what point were you trying to prove mate? I think hes made it clear that non abs cars wont outbrake an abs car with same braking properties.

 

[philmots]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzip, shhhhhhh, shut it

 

[Peperami]

Blaze is a p3nis... There you go, ive said it.

I love it when people insult me over the internet.

Small boys and their toys...

And there was me thinking this was an owners club, for like minded people who love their clios, to make friends, not insult those they've never met, or would have the guts to meet.

Go home little man, go home, cos we aint listening.

Edit- I apologise to the mods, but i hope ive answered, and ended, his argument.

Now lets all get along, and not argue over trivial things like brakes.

 

[kully]

I can not believe some of the responses here.

In the dry any car will stop in about the same time, with or witout ABS. The DIFFERENCE is the damp/wet. No one is able to modfulate their manual brake pumping as fast as ABS. It's been proven so many times. Why do you people who feel you are invinciple now have, in general 172 cups. That's why they are written off by so many young men who do think there is no difference!!

No one can drive so that all risk of someone/thing being infront of you at any given moment is sadly mistaken. Back to young male driver syndrom again???

These types of threads seem to be populated by inexperienced people to say the least.

I can feel the testosterone buiding from behind my monitor.

On that note some people may now rant, but should think about the inaccurace's of their comments.

See you later. Off now.

PS a PM is a far better way of making a point. I know a lot of young males will take offence?????

:sleepy: after the 2nd line , be nice if you could spell some of the words correctly .
also do you want bacon with that waffle ???? lol

 

[Peperami]

If a car with abs stops exactly the same as one without abs, why do they bother not fitting it to the cups?

And yes i do understand how it works.

Ive come up to a corner quickly in cars with, and cars without. in my experience on the cars with abs, the abs kicks in under heavy braking.

On my cup, i can brake very hard, without skidding. Ive not skidded once this summer, yet driving the 182 with abs, the abs has kicked in, slowing my braking...

 

[MarkCup]

OK...after the above speculation...here are the facts...

Tyres give their best grip when they are slipping a little, and that applies to both cornering, acceleration and decceleration too (ever heard the term "slip-angle"?).

When braking, a tyre is giving it's most grip when it is turning about 15% slower that the road speed, i.e. it's slipping but not quite locking up.

On a non ABS car, if you get it right, you can hold the car at that point, and you will using everything that the tyre has to give.

On a car with ABS...once, if not before, you get to the point of maximum braking, the ABS decides you're a bit of an prat as you're about to lock the wheels (the fronts are turning 15% slower than the rears), so it jumps in and starts pumping the pedal for you.

Non-ABS has the ability to stop quicker in the dry, fact.

ABS enables you to retain steering control when you panic/mash the brake pedal, and makes it possible for you to do that whatever the weather. That's all it does. It does not reduce stopping distances.

 

[team_penetrator]

Personally....

I prefer non-abs which was one of the reasons I went for a Cup. When you are braking really hard into a corner, on the point of locking up, I prefer to feel it start to lock and then back off a bit. I prefer to be in control at that point.
What I dont like is braking as late as possible and getting that horrible judder through the pedal. That actually makes me feel less in control.

Just a personal opinion.

Yep, I agree ABS is a good safety device in some circumstances. But to be honest, if Id been that hung up on safety, I would have bought some heavy, underpowered, over-airbagged thing.

Blaze, you need to chill out. If we fit your stereotypical, young male, too much testosterone stereotype, you fit pefectly into my know it all old boy box.

 

[Cupster]

ABS is a failsafe for people who whos gut reaction is to anchor on the brakes in certain situations i.e. everyone! If you train not to just stomp on the brake pedal losing all control i.e. driving test, back street tests, you will learn where the limit is. Then you will be fine.
ABS means nuffin in the snow/ice. Its an extra failsafe just in case but should never be relied on to avoid a collision. It probably is safer! But personally I hate it!
All the cars that bumped into my first cup had ABS! Nuff said.

 

[cup_racer]

FAO Romour control

I think that if you like the look/idea of a clio cup, test drive it. If you still like it, then get one. I personally wouldn't pay attention to all the ranting about ABS. It's a personal opinion. I'd suggest taking a cup and a ff clio out and testing them both, see what you prefer.

I've had my cup for 2 yrs and have loved it, not locking up once. You just have to be realistic when braking.

Amazing how people can turn a normal discussion into a personal slagging match!

 

[John D]

Non-ABS has the ability to stop quicker in the dry, fact

.

Thankyou Markcup for bringing some cold hard FACTS to an argument yet again :approve:

ABS systems are not perfect; they do increase braking distances on a dry road as they can be confused by bumps in the road and other factors & are simply not as sensitive as a capable drivers foot (setting myself up for Blaze to accuse me of thinking I'm Schumi now I know!).

Part of the reason the 172cup was'nt fitted with ABS is that it was aimed at the hardcore trackday market where ABS would interfere too much. The other reason being cost (& weight of course )

 

[Munson]

I can not believe some of the responses here.

These types of threads seem to be populated by inexperienced people to say the least.

I can feel the testosterone buiding from behind my monitor.

Take a chill pill...and be still. This thread, like all others, is just full of peoples opinions and experiences. In this case the discussion is about the merits ABS, thats all. The testosterone is coming from your keyboard dude

ABS is good for 95% of driving, but there are two places I'd rather not have it personally; on a track or in the snow. Otherwise it's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Not sure about the young driver syndrome really. Its a huge generalization but it's probably true to a large extent. A factor here is financial. I would imagine that most 172Cup owners tend to be lower average age (thus experience) than the average 182 (ABS) owners. I think if you took any example of a 172Cup being binned into a field, you'd find that the DRIVER would have done exactly the same in a 182 with ABS.

The issue is getting clouded. The original point of the thread, was that the guy was concerned about the lack of ABS in his potential puschase. The majority of people have, rightly so, given the opinion that it's not an issue as log as he doesnt drive like a tool in the wrong conditions. Personally I think if he does, then sonner or later he'll end up in a hedge with or without ABS.

 

[Munson]

Philmots, you will brake best at the point of locking up!!!!!!!, not when locking up under any circumstances, read roadcraft. That is why under stressful heavy emergency braking you will stop quicker with ABS in the wet. Tried, tested and proven, from someone that has done skid pans and tried cadence braking with wihout ABS.

Guess what you will stop quicker with in the wet and will be able to steer better. Unless of course you can cadence brake to the tune of about 16 pumps per second

The ABS in my Clio is too sensitive and thats a fact. The point of best decelaration is about 6% slip if I recall. Under spirited driving the Clio ABS seems to step in when it THINKS the tyre is about to start slipping. Re: your experience as a traffic copper, thats fine and to be applauded, but frankly you could be Sherlock Holmes, it doesnt make your opinion of ABS any more valid than anyone elses here does it?

 

[jooliona]

frankly you could be Sherlock Holmes, it doesnt make your opinion of ABS any more valid than anyone elses here does it?

and your point is??? sounds to me like ur also criticising someone for having an opinion!

i notice the person who started this thread hasnt been back since... think u all scared him off rather? :S :sleepy:

from what has been posted here, it seems that if u drive a cup it just means ur (probably) an arrogant patronising c**t who thinks that people who choose to have abs are somehow a "lesser species".

 

[Munson]

OK...after the above speculation...here are the facts...

Tyres give their best grip when they are slipping a little, and that applies to both cornering, acceleration and decceleration too (ever heard the term "slip-angle"?).

When braking, a tyre is giving it's most grip when it is turning about 15% slower that the road speed, i.e. it's slipping but not quite locking up.

On a non ABS car, if you get it right, you can hold the car at that point, and you will using everything that the tyre has to give.

On a car with ABS...once, if not before, you get to the point of maximum braking, the ABS decides you're a bit of an prat as you're about to lock the wheels (the fronts are turning 15% slower than the rears), so it jumps in and starts pumping the pedal for you.

Non-ABS has the ability to stop quicker in the dry, fact.

ABS enables you to retain steering control when you panic/mash the brake pedal, and makes it possible for you to do that whatever the weather. That's all it does. It does not reduce stopping distances.

Someone who actually knows what they're talking about

 

[Munson]

and your point is???

You just quoted my point in your post. You were ranting on about ABS and scraping people off the road and went on to basically imply that you're a traffic copper so you're right and everyone else is wrong :clown:

Are you a vehicle engineer? Did you study HNC Motor Vehicle Engineering? Your technical knowledge of ABS is seriously lacking, so I'm guessing the answer is no. Sorry, I'm not trying to be confontational but this is an internet forum, and you've turned a perfectly reasonable discussion into a personal crusade, spouting your testosterone fuelled opinions around like they are technical facts. They are not. You are wrong.

Does that answer your question?

 

[cup_racer]

Jooliona. I hope that your comment wasn't a generalisation for all cup owners. I know you said (probably), but i don't think that's very fair!

If it was, then you are CRITICISING all cup owners! Which is what you were complaining about.

I'd like to point out that i'm a cup owner, and i haven't made any malice remarks about anyone, but i have stuck to the original question.

 

[Munson]

As an aside, I would rather my 182 didnt have ABS. It gets on my teets when I'm pushing hard. It panics and starts hammering the pedal when all I really want is to feel the slip levels and adjust the pressure slightly.

 

[jooliona]

You just quoted my point in your post. You were ranting on about ABS and scraping people off the road and went on to basically imply that you're a traffic copper so you're right and everyone else is wrong :clown:

Are you a vehicle engineer? Did you study HNC Motor Vehicle Engineering? Your technical knowledge of ABS is seriously lacking, so I'm guessing the answer is no. Sorry, I'm not trying to be confontational but this is an internet forum, and you've turned a perfectly reasonable discussion into a personal crusade, spouting your testosterone fuelled opinions around like they are technical facts. They are not. You are wrong.

Does that answer your question?

no it doesnt. cos ur still criticising people for having an opinion. and i've never professed any technical knowledge on this thread so get off my case. i am simply making the point that people should be able to choose abs if they want to feel safer, without being told that it means they're a s**t driver.

and i bloody well hope i'm not spouting testosterone my chromosomes beg to differ!

 

[jooliona]

Jooliona. I hope that your comment wasn't a generalisation for all cup owners. I know you said (probably), but i don't think that's very fair!

If it was, then you are CRITICISING all cup owners! Which is what you were complaining about.

I'd like to point out that i'm a cup owner, and i haven't made any malice remarks about anyone, but i have stuck to the original question.

hence i qualified the remark with (probably)

 

[MarkCup]

As an aside, I would rather my 182 didnt have ABS. It gets on my teets when I'm pushing hard. It panics and starts hammering the pedal when all I really want is to feel the slip levels and adjust the pressure slightly.

Exactly

 

[Munson]

LOL I fooked up back there, for some reason I thought Blaze had posted something but it wasnt actually him My bad.

 

[wilf]

Not read thread in detail but dont be such a nanny and stop worrying about it.

Its like letting kids go out cycling without helmets on. 15 years ago you wouldnt have given it a second thought now people get plain silly about it.

I've owned my cup 4 years and had other high performance cars before that without ABS. I dont have ABS on my Elise either. Never been a problem.

 

[Peperami]

Thankyou mark cup! Glad someone knows what theyre on about.

Jooliana, blaze, and anybody else that fancies a pop just because i like the brakes on my car, feel free, go ahead! How daft is this

 

[jooliona]

u misunderstand me. i dont give a flying f**k what brakes u like on ur car, thats ur choice. what pisses me off is cup drivers who think they're the gospel and automatically assume that if a person CHOOSES abs then they must be s**t at driving.

that is all.

i think we could settle this with a quick poll really. it would be interesting to see just how many "bad drivers" there are on this forum!

 

[blaze]

My oh my, still the non believers. Why do you think F! cars were fitted with ABS. Most modern features were tried and tested through F1.

I can guarantee that a 172 cup will not out brake a FF in the dry. Don't forget the MK1 172 was able to brake from 100mph to zero quicker that a Ferrari 360. Now that had ABS.

Now take the 172 cup and an ABS fitted RS in a straight line in the wet and see who will win. Guess what the ABS car every time as no ones right foot is able to cope with the compting power of ABS. Yes, if you could hold the car before the wheels locked then all well and good. But still no quicker

Trouble is not even Mansel could manage it, again look at why F1 and now road cars are fitted with it.

Duh, yet another I don't need as I'm a young testosterone fueld under 23 year old who knows better.

Track is for nought as the car is for the road for at least 99% of it's life leave it there. The Cup was not designed for the track it was a cheaper cut down model, which gave a slight edge on track. Lets not forget you do not have things suddenly appearing infront of you. Now factor in they do and does any non ABS driver feel they can stop quicker in the wet. NO NO NO.

Magazines, shows, professionals have all said the same.

Pooperami, why did you think I gave you my PM idea. Just proven my point. Young testosterone boys are negative and genarally wrong, as in they have no EXPERIENCE. Your choice ho hum.

Blaze

 

[Peperami]

Ha ha ha.

I like what you did there. Pooperami. That was quite cool.

 

[blaze]

My pleasure old chap

Blaze

 

[Peperami]

Oh, and ive reported your very rude and insulting pm's to admin.

Some police officer you are.

 

[davo172cup]

ha ha ha ^^^^^

pmsl

 

[blaze]

Go on my friend, loose the PM battle and threaten. As I said that's why you need to learn alot about life and others. I can and did pull you up. So what.

Lifes too short, yet I love a good debate, with someone that can cope?????

I'm sure admin have got better things to do than listen to someone who has no compunction in trying to call someone a PR*TT in a PM amoungst others.

Anyway, same responses are available ol' boy. Don't be too offended that my typing and life skills are nowhere near as good as yours, eh!!!!!

Blaze

 

[davo172cup]

blaze are u still a copper?

cos if u are then u are just inforcing the bad image the public have of police officers and what the police force are trying to change!

 

[Peperami]

Lol, your spellings not.

Whats an amoungst?

Im on this forum to meet and make friends, not argue with those that have nothing better to do. If u like abs, get it, if you dont, dont get it. Simple. End of.

 

[Peperami]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peperami
Right...

Before you choose to insult me from the comfort of your computer, think about who you are speaking to, and how your actions and words will affect others.

If by any chance you were a police officer, which i doubt by the manner in which you treat and speak to others, you should know better.

Grow up.

Dan.


Little boy, I'm 42 and yes a police driver with a class 1 clasification. How can I prove it? who knows. My words nor deeds can possibly affect others as as you say, it is only a keyboard.

You should understand there are far more people than you boys who can get it wrong. I've been there on thios forum and admitted it.

Sorry little man with a huge chip, it's not you per sae, it's the little boys who sprout nonesense, and know everything. What you all need to remember is we've all been there and as one gets older LEARN THE TRUTH.

My manner is only fitting to the state of the people I reply to. I've been on here for over 3 years. Met all that was at the time the club at various meets. We all got on. Now the originals have left because of the childish individuals.

At about 20 you need to be educated and not tell people that it's one thing when you have no experience of life let alone proper driving ability FFS. Tell me to grow up and I will always win. End of. Little young boys with testosterone are generally wrong anyway. As I was and like so many others.

Love to meet you and get a real perspective on a good debate.

Think about you're age/ability and rage and then think about what you are saying. Me grow up, trouble is I am and you are not. Why do you think this has been done by PM not on an open forum, of course it could.

Anyways take care and learn about brakes and their effects. It may one day save your life. Unlike so many boys who feel like you. Having scraped up so many daed boys, who know best, I do hope you do.

Your personal take is something else you will get more and more of. Ignore it and get on with learning what you need to.

Mark

 

[Peperami]

My quite reasonable and mature pm to blaze asking him not to insult me and argue over the forum, my first message ever sent to him, and his very civil (i think not) reply ^^

 

[John D]

Now take the 172 cup and an ABS fitted RS in a straight line in the wet and see who will win. Guess what the ABS car every time as no ones right foot is able to cope with the compting power of ABS. Yes, if you could hold the car before the wheels locked then all well and good. But still no quicker

No one is disputing that ABS is an advantage in the wet! It is in the dry where it is more of a hindrance than a help. And of course it is quicker if you can hold the brakes on the point of locking up. ABS works by briefly releasing the brakes then re-applying them, when your brakes are released you are no longer slowing down, so therefore it takes longer to stop. Simple really!

The Cup was not designed for the track it was a cheaper cut down model, which gave a slight edge on track.

A cheaper cut down model that just happened to have lower and wider suspension and lighter alloys. Hmmm I guess that stuff must just have been lying around at the factory going to waste. The cup is blatantly a parred down version of the 172 with some creature comforts and safety features removed and replaced with items to improve handling, designed to appeal to a slightly more hardcore driver.

Magazines, shows, professionals have all said the same.

b****cks

(All quotes courtesy of Blaze if anybody could'nt guess)

 

[Revels]

Dont ya just love keyboard warriors. "ooooh, if I use big words and say im a policeman everyone will believe what I say"

Condescending tit!

 

[Lagerlout]

I love the way buying a Cup makes you hardcore. lol.

 

[Revels]

I love the way buying a Cup makes you hardcore. lol.

Since when did Hardcore mean tight?

 

[Peperami]

Since when did Hardcore mean tight?

Hehe x