Roll Centre Kits - Honest reviews

[Krarl]

I'm toying with the idea of getting a RCC kit from @Tomotek @ ProAm Racing

Before I buy one I wanted to gauge people's honest opinions on them. I strictly want to know what it's like to drive over a 'standard' setup and the 'feel' that's gained from them, people say understeer is reduced but I want to know first-hand experience on track

My car currently has a fully polybushed undercarriage, PMS solid top mounts, cup shocks and cooksport springs. The overall goal for the car was always to be used for trackdays and for a drive out every so often so longevity ain't a massive hurdle in this instance and I'll likely be looking at coilovers and possibly a diff if I can find one relatively cheap

Cheers

 

[VenomUK]

@Yorkshire Pudding I'll be honest I don't know how much this will help but here goes...

Done a track day in completely standard form and I was by far the slowest person on the day.

Current set up is:-
AST 5100
PMS solid top mounts and brace
Black series top mounts at the rear
ACS roll centre kit (ProAm helped develop this kit as Ant no longer makes them and Ant's own words "ProAM kit is a superior design")

No, I have no comparison over RCC kit and non fitted but what I can comment on is that the car felt like it was on rails. I had to c**k my entry up to get any hint of understeer. I'm still learning the car but I could tell I could have gone into corners much quicker as I found once leaning on the car I was on the throttle powering around and out.

This could be partly because everyone told me to get AST as they are the dogs or a combination of everything just working together brilliantly? The second half of the day I cranked the shocks up to full stiffness and I literally laughed my way around the track because it was like I had just jumped out of a good car into a better car. The turn in was sharp, the car filled me with confidence and scratching my head that how it would feel if I had an LSD fitted?

IMO if you're going to build a track car then do it correctly and don't be half-hearted. If you're building a budget build then yes, I'd say you could skit the RCC if you're not bothered about it but if you're building something decent then for the price he is selling the kit for at the moment then I would jump all over it.

 

[green]

I have the Marks (aka @NorthloopCup) roll center kit. I have Ast suspention/diff/poly bushed everything.
on track it’s great..just about all understeer is gone. With all the trackdays/Sunday blasts in 4 years I’ve never had to replace drive shafts or cv boots.
the roll center kit does require more maintenance but that’s just keeping the rose joints clean and lubricated.
you do gain track width..5mm either side..bonus! Also it returns driveshafts and rods angles where they should be.

 

[Cub.]

When I fitted @NorthloopCup kit to the charged flamer, it made a very noticeable difference on track.

In fact, I’d say decent suspension set up (I was running ASTs also), coupled to a gripper and the roll centre kit made more of a difference to track performance / lap time than the charger itself.

 

[Louis]

How do these kits last on the road?

 

[Cub.]

How do these kits last on the road?

I bought mine from an early batch from
@NorthloopCup and he was pretty crystal clear at the time that they were designed for track use.

If you’re smashing 15k Miles of english weather on them, they’ll erode and wear like any other part.

 

[incy-spider]

Have northloop kit on mine, have done for many years.. no problems, swapping the bearings isn’t a big deal and very cheap.. weather will get to them if not regularly greased and can go tight but as said no dramas, pros outweigh the cons


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[Krarl]

Legends cheers gents

Looks like I'm sold on getting myself a kit then😂

 

[frayz]

I have a Northloop Cup kit.

For what its worth, my car was always built as a fast road car that will go to th track as opposed to a track car that gets used on the road.

Previously i had a 182FF on Cup dampers and Eibach springs and had driven the car in this guise for many years, sold it, bought it back etc and it drove okay. Wasn't as good as stock Cup springs but did look better. Then i swapped to ASTs which i had valved and sprung with fast road in mind, and teh car was then drooped a little more. Immediately there was a noticable loss of steering performance, the car required more steering input and wasnt as responsive on teh front end.
Then i fitted the RCK and the front end came alive again, less roll across teh front axle, more steering response and an imediacy to the front axle.
It also took out alot of front end tramlining and wandering and the car rode bumps and undulations much better. You could now aim the car down the road and drive it as opposed to hanging on to it to try and maintain your direction.
Turn in is sharp and the whole steering feel is much more direct.

100% one of the best things ive fitted to the car.

I daily drive my car and does approx 250 miles a week, bearings are cleaned regularly and coated in ACF50. I think as long as you look after them and treat them as a servicable item like any other part, you'll have no nasty suprises. The Pro-Am kits is beautully engineered and great as a plug & play solution, if you want something arguably more robust, have a look at the Northloop kit available from Bridgecraft Motorsport. The later option will require machining to the hubs though.

 

[Danith]

Not the same design or parts, but same idea. My civic has the roll centre adjusters - definitely won't be going back to OEM now, lot less crashy.

 

[Hollidog]

I also have a NLC kit from Mark. My setup is BC DS 10kg front, 8kg rear, lowered 35mm from std all round. PMS front strut & RARB, Gripper. Where it made the most difference is in corners with quick direction changes or tightening lines, think chicanes or McLaren/Clearways at Brands Indy, the car would roll and then spring back continuously creating a kind of pogo effect - strange. Once I added the RC kit this was completely gone and the car was so much more stable at low speed. Fitting is easy, maintenance is simple, and Mark turned em around quick. If the kit Tomo is doing is half as nice as the rest of his build then I'm sure the same could be said about his and I do like how they are adjustable to suit different ride heights.

 

[Eddie555]

Northloop set on mine.. Ast5100s, blackseries polys throughout, gripper diff, Epas, Brt motorsports quickrack, k-tec solid topmounts. Track B1tch only. My car was literally transformed after the RC kit was fitted.. Where i point it, is where it goes.. my Laptimes decreased incredibly as i can now carry more speed through the corners and can apply power sooner.. It'll be the best mod you make..

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[Usr117063]

So I see the answer is yes then 😄

 

[gambit]

Is it worth £500~ though ? Contemplating it

 

[frayz]

Is it worth £500~ though ? Contemplating it

Easily just for the machining on the parts, as I’m not sure you could make the kit for less. For me the improvement in how the car tracks over bumps and undulations was worth it alone.
If anything us road car guys get to enjoy the benefits daily. So arguably better value for money than someone just doing a track day every other month or so.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Email allan@bridgecraftmotorsport.co.uk if you want one of my kits. Tell him I sent you and he will look after you. 👍🏻

And thanks to all you guys running my kits for the honest and positive feedback! Those kits have shipped as far as Australia and New Zealand, there’s been over 100 sets made and ZERO mechanical failures. I’ve seen them put into tyre walls and they’ve bent the hub itself rather than the kit failing. One guy over in Belgium managed to hit a kerb at triple figures in his R19, and that just ripped the entire corner apart. But the hubs were still intact, pin still in the lower part of the hub itself.

Not bad for an idiot with no qualifications in motorsport - just capable of drawing what I wanted on a small scrap of paper and taking it to Martin and Allan. From the outset we all knew what needed to be done for strength and the rest has now become history.

Thanks again to everyone who invested in these kits from me. 👍🏻👍🏻

 

[gambit]

Email allan@bridgecraftmotorsport.co.uk if you want one of my kits. Tell him I sent you and he will look after you. 👍🏻

And thanks to all you guys running my kits for the honest and positive feedback! Those kits have shipped as far as Australia and New Zealand, there’s been over 100 sets made and ZERO mechanical failures. I’ve seen them put into tyre walls and they’ve bent the hub itself rather than the kit failing. One guy over in Belgium managed to hit a kerb at triple figures in his R19, and that just ripped the entire corner apart. But the hubs were still intact, pin still in the lower part of the hub itself.

Not bad for an idiot with no qualifications in motorsport - just capable of drawing what I wanted on a small scrap of paper and taking it to Martin and Allan. From the outset we all knew what needed to be done for strength and the rest has now become history.

Thanks again to everyone who invested in these kits from me. 👍🏻👍🏻

Great background info on their strength. How much is Allen selling them for?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Great background info on their strength. How much is Allen selling them for?

You’d need to contact him mate as I’m not sure what the current prices are tbh.

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Email allan@bridgecraftmotorsport.co.uk if you want one of my kits. Tell him I sent you and he will look after you. 👍🏻

And thanks to all you guys running my kits for the honest and positive feedback! Those kits have shipped as far as Australia and New Zealand, there’s been over 100 sets made and ZERO mechanical failures. I’ve seen them put into tyre walls and they’ve bent the hub itself rather than the kit failing. One guy over in Belgium managed to hit a kerb at triple figures in his R19, and that just ripped the entire corner apart. But the hubs were still intact, pin still in the lower part of the hub itself.

Not bad for an idiot with no qualifications in motorsport - just capable of drawing what I wanted on a small scrap of paper and taking it to Martin and Allan. From the outset we all knew what needed to be done for strength and the rest has now become history.

Thanks again to everyone who invested in these kits from me. 👍🏻👍🏻

Pics of R19?

I love a 19 lol

 

[plenty]

Thanks a lot, my dudes. Was really hoping to not spend more money for a while, but this thread is got me seriously lusting after an RTC.

 

[frayz]

Some pics of the NorthloopCup / Bridgecraft setup.
For what it’s worth, my car has the following:

AST 5100 - 70/40
NLC roll centre kit
PMS topmounts & brace
Black polybushes on all front bushes inc steering rack.
Whiteline rear beam bushes
PMS 19mm rear ARB
PMS 10mm rear axle spacers
PMs 10mm front spacers
2118 ET43 - 195/50 R888s

 

[scruffydubber]

Great question, I'm also looking at buying a kit.

Has anyone got any opinions on the PMS kit? Looks like a replica of the cup racer kits
Possibly a bit more work fitting - sourcing Laguna uprights and swapping flanges. Although I like the fact the uprights already have an increased length between the driveshaft and ball joint mount, meaning the extender will be alot shorter.
Adjustable Castor (I need more castor), and also the benefit of running a larger wheel bearing.

It does require 65mm strut spacing, and increase the track by 12mm both sides. Although benefits I'm not sure how the stock driveshafts will cope. Although perhaps a CV spacer will bring it inline with the other kits.

 

[VenomUK]

Has anyone got any opinions on the PMS kit? Looks like a replica of the cup racer kits

Yeah, help smaller businesses

 

[Mb21]

Is anyone able to help give me a better understanding of the differences between the @NorthloopCup / Bridgecraft setup and the @Tomotek @ProAm Racing setup?

Please correct me if wrong:
NLC/bridgecraft set up require laguna hubs where ProAm Racing set up just bolts up to the standard 172/182 clio hubs?

Anyone with a rough price of the two options?

Thanks

Martin

 

[Tomotek]

Is anyone able to help give me a better understanding of the differences between the @NorthloopCup / Bridgecraft setup and the @Tomotek @ProAm Racing setup?

Please correct me if wrong:
NLC/bridgecraft set up require laguna hubs where ProAm Racing set up just bolts up to the standard 172/182 clio hubs?

Anyone with a rough price of the two options?

Thanks

Martin

I know the difference between the Pure motorsport and the Pro-Am kit is regarding Pure using the Laguna hubs and our Pro-Am kit being plug and play, 2 stage and fully reversible if wanting to sell and put car back to std etc..

Costs:
Pure Motorsport
RC kit £336
Bump steer £99
Laguna hubs and uprights £330
£765 total

Pro-Am Racing
Geo Correction (RC&Bump) £495

Not 100% on the bridgcraft, I know they require the uprights machining and the lower ball joint extender screwing in.

Regarding some of the comments about needing maintenance on the other kits.

Our PRO-AM Racing kit is all BZP coated and or clear anodised aluminium for corrosion protection.. and we use the best stainless steel NMB bearings on the market with PTFE liners which are self lubricating and the edges acts as wipers to keep the bearing joint clean.

Some pics of customers with kits fitted:

 

[Tomotek]

If anyone wants anymore details about our geo kits then just sent me a DM.. we’ve got about 30 on the market now, from people using as daily’s, to people racing on slicks.. had some great feedback and has been interesting to see what countries have clios!, Australia, to Hong Kong and Brazil!

 

[Brigsy]

Can anybody with the Bridgecraft/Northloopcup setup do me a favour and measure the length of the roll correction pin and rosejoint (from hub to end of thread) ?

Im about ready to hit the switch and buy a setup for my R5gtt converted Extra van, need to check if it will fit under my 13” wheels.

If it wont fit under the 13” wheels, the option is 15” wheels and ap 4 pots to go along side the rcl kit too

 

[Mb21]

Thanks for the reply @Tomotek I’ll send you a DM

 

[frayz]

Is anyone able to help give me a better understanding of the differences between the @NorthloopCup / Bridgecraft setup and the @Tomotek @ProAm Racing setup?

Please correct me if wrong:
NLC/bridgecraft set up require laguna hubs where ProAm Racing set up just bolts up to the standard 172/182 clio hubs?

Anyone with a rough price of the two options?

Thanks

Martin

The Northloop/Bridgecraft design uses the OEM hubs but the bottom pinch knuckle is machined and threaded internally. The ball joint extender is then threaded into the hub. The extender is also machined with a relief to take the pinch bolt.
So it’s a belt and braces connection. Once fitted they are considered a one piece item and never to be removed. This is considered more robust by some but does require the hubs to be machined.

Some say that the “plug and play” kit extenders fitted as per OEM with just a pinch bolt can cause the bottom of the hub to oval over time.
As the extender can now exert more leverage on this area due to the increase in distance between the ball joint and the pinch bolt connection.

Personally I have never witnessed this failure, but I know others who say they have.

As said, I have the Northloop/Bridgecraft setup and am very happy with it and confident in its strength. I have also seen the Pro-Am kit first hand and it’s beautifully engineered and finished, however I havent used it so can’t comment on its robustness. The boys at Pro-Am are very professional imo and are actually circuit racing with their own product, so they should see first hand how it fairs over time.
I also don’t believe for one moment they would sell a product that wasn’t fit for purpose.🙂

 

[frayz]

Can anybody with the Bridgecraft/Northloopcup setup do me a favour and measure the length of the roll correction pin and rosejoint (from hub to end of thread) ?

Im about ready to hit the switch and buy a setup for my R5gtt converted Extra van, need to check if it will fit under my 13” wheels.

If it wont fit under the 13” wheels, the option is 15” wheels and ap 4 pots to go along side the rcl kit too

I would but am on holiday for a week mate.

 

[Brigsy]

I would but am on holiday for a week mate.

No rush for it mate, if you can get some measurements when your back that will be spot on

 

[Bankrupt_drunk]

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but would it be possible to fit some sort of gaiter over the roll center moving parts, similar to the one on the gear linkage, to keep road debris out and increase the longevity of the kit?

 

[incy-spider]

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but would it be possible to fit some sort of gaiter over the roll center moving parts, similar to the one on the gear linkage, to keep road debris out and increase the longevity of the kit?

You can buy them I believe


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[scruffydubber]

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but would it be possible to fit some sort of gaiter over the roll center moving parts, similar to the one on the gear linkage, to keep road debris out and increase the longevity of the kit?

Yes you can buy them. Although some poeple have the opinion they become a trap for dirt as there not it fully sealed. I've had no first hand experience.

 

[Kev@KAM]

The Northloop/Bridgecraft design uses the OEM hubs but the bottom pinch knuckle is machined and threaded internally. The ball joint extender is then threaded into the hub. The extender is also machined with a relief to take the pinch bolt.
So it’s a belt and braces connection. Once fitted they are considered a one piece item and never to be removed. This is considered more robust by some but does require the hubs to be machined.

Some say that the “plug and play” kit extenders fitted as per OEM with just a pinch bolt can cause the bottom of the hub to oval over time.
As the extender can now exert more leverage on this area due to the increase in distance between the ball joint and the pinch bolt connection.

Personally I have never witnessed this failure, but I know others who say they have.

This is the reason I went for the Bridgecraft one. When we were looking into doing similar this is the issue we stopped on. We tried to work out a method to do it without machining but didnt come up with a cost effective solution. I forget the other that went on the market a few years back but there were a few long term issues with hubs ovalling by using the standard pinch method I think. The downside of moving the fulcrum moment further away.
I dont think this should be much issue for a track car but a car doing longer miles its a potential issue. Especially as hubs are already starting to oval as they get older.

 

[Tomotek]

This is the reason I went for the Bridgecraft one. When we were looking into doing similar this is the issue we stopped on. We tried to work out a method to do it without machining but didnt come up with a cost effective solution. I forget the other that went on the market a few years back but there were a few long term issues with hubs ovalling by using the standard pinch method I think. The downside of moving the fulcrum moment further away.
I dont think this should be much issue for a track car but a car doing longer miles its a potential issue. Especially as hubs are already starting to oval as they get older.

Not sure which kits your referring to that had the potential oval issue.

However we aren’t concerned with the Hubs ovalising on the PRO-AM kit. As long as you fully support the lower surface of the hub with the pin,which it does, then it’s probably got less chance of ovalising the hub than the std pin, even with a lower fulcrum..

When you remove the rubber boot you can see the std lower ball joint pin is only supported by the hole itself.. so all the load wants to try and pry the hole open and closed.

Our kit has a large flange supporting the bottom surface, and the pinch bolt groove to locate the bolt is milled into one side (adding cost but worth it) this allows full face contact 300deg of the pin inside the hub adding more strength and most importantly surface area and durability.

 

[Kev@KAM]

I forget the name of it to be honest. Its not been sold for a while now. Good idea with the detail. Looks to be a step up from the other design which I dont think had that tightness of tolerance.

 

[scruffydubber]

Was it a ACS kit?

What brand was Ilyas that failed?

 

[JamesBryan]

Was it a ACS kit?

What brand was Ilyas that failed?

Yeah the ACS kit had issues I believe.

 

[scruffydubber]

Any thoughts on welding the pin to the upright, eliminate the chance of ovaling the hole?
I've heard of a few fatigue cracking around that area, although nowhere near the quality of the ones mentioned in this thread