RS Tuning Clio 182 Rolling Road Results

[BenR]

is he a new user or always been a tuner, as i seem to remember the username?

Ok, just let me straighten out myself, i'm lost lol.

RS Tuning is Pmurry.
Pmurry got the map from some french guy
The french guy was given the software/hardware to develop the map from Bellauto?
Or was Pmurry given the software/hardware to uplead the map, which the french guy already had done before?

am i on the right track?

 

[jonnyboy]

almost, bellauto is as far as I know nothing to do with RS tuning or the remap. He has helped RS Tuning set up doing renaultsports by supplying software (Pmurray has been doing VAG stuff for a while already)

The french connection is simply a tuner that has supplied the file pre modified and tested on european cars. You just need to know where to look for these things. For example ktech are releasing a remap for the 225 with 1PSI of aditional boost (they havent found a way round the engine shutting down with any more boost than that) Theres a map out there that gives you 15PSI with no running problems but RS Tuning are the only people in the UK who can get it for you.

This is why I'm saying be open to the possibility that things are possible with chiptuning that might not have been seen here in the uk yet thats all.

 

[BenR]

lol, i know the possibilities of what can be done with the std ecu, scope wise its more powerful than 99% of aftermarket ECU's.

What i'm talking about is the mechanical limitations and the tiny amount of leeway you have when it comes to changing the factors in regards to making power (ignoring part throttle/tansient for the moment).

I havent said a single bad thing, all i've done is ask questions and been on your side.

Who knows, we might end up contacting bellauto for custom pre-progammed flash maps for certain engine specs.

Its all good, and progress is welcomed.

I still wanna know what was done though

 

[Andy GDI]

cant agree more with ben on the above statment

 

[MATT BLACK]

Im intrigued with this post - its amazing what can be done to a car by just mapping the ECU. Different tuning companies always seem to deliver different results on cars with similar set ups. I understand different software is used and some of the results are very good. Whats not been mentioned though is the importance of mapping a car and achieving reliability as well. Going of experience ( and forking out £1800 to date ) to find someone that can map a car up properly so it improves performance and gives you reliability is a very difficult task indeed. The 1st time i had my clio set up at Stealth Racing in Coventry was a disaster - ok he achieved 285 bhp but the car was difficult to start, was very thirsty on fuel and engine detonation ocured at high revs ( pinking ) + on acceleration it would die for a second then come back to life causing massive boom from the exhaust due to excess unburnt fuel. Needless to say i spent £800 with Stealth and within 3 months the engine blew due to 2 cracked piston rings and a badly pitted piston. After the rebuild and hearing that other vehicles that had visited stealth had suffered the same problem i started to look elsewere for a decent "mapper". A mate of mine told me of a guy that was a Subaru specialist and had previously worked for Subaru mapping there rally cars - he was expensive but i gave it a shot. To cut a long story short after he had mapped it the engine blew.....again, this time the big end bearings had gone due to overboost. So after throwing another £500 down the drain and another expensive engine rebuild i spoke to DTA engine management systems of Salford in Manchester. These guys highly recommended a guy called Ric Wood ( http://www.ricwood.com/ ) so i took it to him. The car was there for 3 days and he spent a lot of time finding a suitable programme for my car. On collecting the vehicle he had managed to extract 336 bhp and an amazing 360 lbft from the engine and it didnt pink at all on acceleration, it started 1st time and accelerated perfectly - Ric stated that the mapping done by the 2 previous tuners looked like a 2 yr old child had been hitting the keyboard at random - it was overfueling, the timing was out and the actual structural set up of the overall running of the engine was a disaster. I paid Ric and drove away a very happy customer. The car drove perfect and ive had no engine problems since. So theres my story and as ive stated in the tale its essential that when having you car mapped you get someone that knows what there doing and has specialised in the job and has a good reputation - otherwise be prepared for a big spend.

 

[MarkM]

Very interesting comments in this thread. I have recently had Omex standalone management fitted and setup by Andy (GDI). My car is a 1 year old 15000 mile 182 so I was a little apprehensive about this external device controlling my engine (see j3neds comments!!).

I was reassurred by the fact that andy has already developed the base program on his own car so although the map has been setup specifically for my car there was no potentially dangerous "testing" done (I hope!)

The map has a few issues which Andy is looking into and next time I go to GDI he is going to remap it to smooth the power out.

At the end of the day if my engine goes bang (which I am very confident it won't) I have the backing of GDI as they solely worked on the car for all mods I have had done, they will now be servicing the car so the only people touching it will be them. Andy is a very nice bloke in conjunction with Ben I have always felt very involved in the work I have had done. Andy showed me the mapping software etc and explained how it all worked and Ben is always very open for a discussion about his input into the car.

At the end of the day I will eventually have more work done which the management will cover. It is interesting to be involved at the level GDI involve you at and the sense that the cars mapping is going to be improved over time.

To the subject of this thread though the OMEX unit is expensive so as Ben and Andy were saying maps that are developed for specific packages and loaded onto the standard ECU can only be a good thing. At the end of the day a big gain from a remap is going to have questions asked about it whether it is valid or not.

 

[MATT BLACK]

Engines are capable of developing more power than what they develop from the manufacturer. The reason being is manufacturers de-tune there engines for reliability so therefore it will last the warranty period ( in most cases ) i see no reason why a few tweeks will cause any damage so i wouldnt worry about having my new car lightly "breathed upon". If they do go wrong take the mods off and take it back to the dealers for warranty work.

I blew my clio V6 engine ( 4 month old ) by overboosting it with N20. I took the kit off and took it to the dealers - hey presto a Brand new engine......the motto of the story is - if anything does go wrong use your head and try to be flexible.

 

[MarkM]

First thing I discussed with andy was can it be put back if I had any problems as it is still under warrenty. As you said if anything major goes wrong first port of call will be the Renault dealer with the mods removed.

 

[RSTuning]

FAO BenR
is he a new user or always been a tuner, as i seem to remember the username? - Been tuning for a good while now. I was a member years ago with the same name but did not tend to use so my account must have been closed.

Ok, just let me straighten out myself, i'm lost lol.

RS Tuning is PmurrAy. yes with the A LOL!
Pmurry got the map from some french guy - Tes
The french guy was given the software/hardware to develop the map from Bellauto? - No
Or was PmurrAy given the software/hardware to uplead the map, which the french guy already had done before? - Nearly, some changes were made but yes near enough.

am i on the right track? You are now

I appreciate all the questions but to be quite honest some details i will not be able to get. This is down to the way the map was developed using Winols and the paramaters the tuner selected. I know most of the after market stuff is pretty graphical and it is easy to show where and what is changed. In this case it is not so easy. I have asked for details but he was not happy releasing this as anyone who knows Winols will be able to create the same file(near enough). If it is a matter of trust then all i can say is i trust him enough to provide a file for my partners DCI 65 knowing she will thrash the balls out of it! I have also used for other files which have all proven to be a sound investment and have given no trouble at all.

If anyone is preparedto bring me a STD. 182 for friday (Omar is having problems and his was the STD.) I will do exactly as i did with Jasons car. Standard Diagnostic/Power Run, then a remapped Diagnostic/Power Run. When i say diagnostic the guys at the RR will basically simulate the car going up an extreme hill at different revs and different throttle positions. Surely this will surface any pinking etc.?

The cost will be £175 to the lucky person!This includes all the RR time also.

Cheers

Paul

 

[MATT BLACK]

BenR is cliosport furniture - been here since the beginning and can talk the talk....he also walks the walk. I would feel safe leaving a car with him and Andi ( GDi )

The deal above sounds superb - wish thats all i got charged when i had my car mapped. This is something im going to have to get into.

 

[bellautos]

Just for me to clear a few things up

@BenR sorry for jumping on you, as you can understand tuning is a small world and we like to keep SOME secrets..

regarding me and pmurray

I origanaly helped paul set up with some software and BASIC tools etc etc.

Now we are totaly seperate businesses, paul does his own thing and so do i.

we still talk an a day to day basis and are good m8s.

No i did not give paul his map for the 182 on this ocasion, i have my own maps for the 172 and 182.
In the past ive helped him out with maps for other projects we have being working on together and that is about as far as it goes realy.

 

[Ali]

Very impressive gain's....Not read the whole post, But i'm shocked by the gains. i love be happy with 5-7bhp from my remap but not 13!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jas1]

If anyone is preparedto bring me a STD. 182 for friday (Omar is having problems and his was the STD.) I will do exactly as i did with Jasons car. Standard Diagnostic/Power Run, then a remapped Diagnostic/Power Run. When i say diagnostic the guys at the RR will basically simulate the car going up an extreme hill at different revs and different throttle positions. Surely this will surface any pinking etc.?

The cost will be £175 to the lucky person!This includes all the RR time also.

Cheers

Paul

absolute bargain, be good to see results on standard motor,

still well impressed with mine, just could do with a few dry days

 

[BenR]

Well a big thumbs up from another tuner!

The processing power and reslution of std ECU's is something i love, but hardly anybody has the ability to control a std ecu to what is required, so finding someone who has is a real benefit to the clio community.

Just for me to clear a few things up

@BenR sorry for jumping on you, as you can understand tuning is a small world and we like to keep SOME secrets..

regarding me and pmurray

I origanaly helped paul set up with some software and BASIC tools etc etc.

Now we are totaly seperate businesses, paul does his own thing and so do i.

we still talk an a day to day basis and are good m8s.

No i did not give paul his map for the 182 on this ocasion, i have my own maps for the 172 and 182.
In the past ive helped him out with maps for other projects we have being working on together and that is about as far as it goes realy.

 

[John DNA]

Interesting thread with some familiar faces!

Just thought I'd clear a couple of things up. Someone mentioned every engine is different so you'll need a custom map to get the most out of it.
On a completely bog standard car straight out of the factory car this isn't completely true, a well developed generic map will be far better than a quickly written potentially poor custom map, as engines have come along way since the days of Mini A series units and engines tolerances are very tight, also modern systems have many sensors which closely monitor and adjust all systems in relation to what is happening in real-time, this removes even the minor differences in tolerances, systems like this have been developed so that your car will adapt to wear over the years and still remain within the now tight emissions laws, they do indeed self tune themselves to an extent.

A question, when mentioned that knock was listened too using some sort of headphone, wouldn't it have been a lot more accurate to log the knock sensors over all the runs the car ran? It would be a lot more accurate that way.

I may have missed it in this thread but what fuel was used in the original car in question, also as the ECU was removed after the first power test then the adaptive settings may have been restored so sometimes just disconnecting the ECU will reset these and see a slight power gain anyway, one to think about.

Also a point to note is that fuel quality varies drastically from country to country dependant on the requirements of local emission laws, this will effect output and also is another factor on the standard output of your car, the manufacturer will allow that sometimes you will go on holiday to a foreign country and use fuel of a lower quality and not expect your car to blow up! This has to be allowed for as well as poor maintenance.

Some people ask how can you gain 15bhp with just a chip? well that's sometimes very easy, more often than not car manufacturers detune engine output to fit in with either market placement in relation to other models within there range or more frequently to fit within tax bands, these vary globally so are normally governed by their target market.

 

[RSTuning]

Interesting thread with some familiar faces!

Just thought I'd clear a couple of things up. Someone mentioned every engine is different so you'll need a custom map to get the most out of it.
On a completely bog standard car straight out of the factory car this isn't completely true, a well developed generic map will be far better than a quickly written potentially poor custom map, as engines have come along way since the days of Mini A series units and engines tolerances are very tight, also modern systems have many sensors which closely monitor and adjust all systems in relation to what is happening in real-time, this removes even the minor differences in tolerances, systems like this have been developed so that your car will adapt to wear over the years and still remain within the now tight emissions laws, they do indeed self tune themselves to an extent.

A question, when mentioned that knock was listened too using some sort of headphone, wouldn't it have been a lot more accurate to log the knock sensors over all the runs the car ran? It would be a lot more accurate that way.

I may have missed it in this thread but what fuel was used in the original car in question, also as the ECU was removed after the first power test then the adaptive settings may have been restored so sometimes just disconnecting the ECU will reset these and see a slight power gain anyway, one to think about.

Also a point to note is that fuel quality varies drastically from country to country dependant on the requirements of local emission laws, this will effect output and also is another factor on the standard output of your car, the manufacturer will allow that sometimes you will go on holiday to a foreign country and use fuel of a lower quality and not expect your car to blow up! This has to be allowed for as well as poor maintenance.

Some people ask how can you gain 15bhp with just a chip? well that's sometimes very easy, more often than not car manufacturers detune engine output to fit in with either market placement in relation to other models within there range or more frequently to fit within tax bands, these vary globally so are normally governed by their target market.

Hi John, the car was run on 98RON Optimax and the tests were back to back. To reset the adaptive the car was run (after programming) for 15mins lights on then 15 lights off. This is Renaults way of re-calobration where i believe ford say to drive hard for 7 miles or so i think? As for knock/det this is the way the guys at the RR usually work i think.


Hope this helps.

Paul

 

[SOHROB]

Where in Leeds are you ? is it just 172/182's or do you have any maps for other cars ?

 

[John DNA]

Hi John, the car was run on 98RON Optimax and the tests were back to back. To reset the adaptive the car was run (after programming) for 15mins lights on then 15 lights off. This is Renaults way of re-calobration where i believe ford say to drive hard for 7 miles or so i think? As for knock/det this is the way the guys at the RR usually work i think.

p.s u on checksum by any chance?

Hope this helps.

Paul

Hi Paul,

But the adaptive may have been slightly back on the first run as hrs of driving can back it off more than the standard Renault method. The ford method is more realistic

 

[RSTuning]

Where in Leeds are you ? is it just 172/182's or do you have any maps for other cars ?

Near the Uni. We can do most modern vehicles with a few exceptions.

Paul

 

[RSTuning]

Hi Paul,

But the adaptive may have been slightly back on the first run as hrs of driving can back it off more than the standard Renault method. The ford method is more realistic

Hi John, When we arrived at the RR the car was running a map. I removed the map, reset the adaptive, ran the std ecu then repeated for the remap.

Paul

 

[SOHROB]

Have you done a 3 plug saxo vts before ?

 

[John DNA]

Paul, all I'm saying is if you'd reset the adaptive before the initial run in the same way as after the remap then possibly there may have been a difference, just puts test conditions on a par, although no tuners I know ever do this.

 

[RSTuning]

Have you done a 3 plug saxo vts before ?

Not as yet mate. 3 plug?

Paul

 

[RSTuning]

Paul, all I'm saying is if you'd reset the adaptive before the initial run in the same way as after the remap then possibly there may have been a difference, just puts test conditions on a par, although no tuners I know ever do this.

That is what i meant i think! The way i did it was to ensure everything was carried out in the same way to give clean results for the people to see.

Paul

 

[SOHROB]

its a later model one with a 3 plug ecu,afaik its only wayne schofield who's done stuff with them

 

[RSTuning]

PM me the details of the car and i will have a look. ECU no. would be also nice!

Paul

 

[Ja5on]

sounds very interesting.... defo worth a look.

 

[RSTuning]

Power graph is here:
http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc004521ja.jpg

Paul

 

[Ali]

^ seriously Poor 182 as std!!!!! Christ, that would be going bak to renault if mine dyno'd that bad.

 

[John DNA]

^ seriously Poor 182 as std!!!!! Christ, that would be going bak to renault if mine dyno'd that bad.

Having seen countless cars on the rolling road you will frequently see widely varying figures. There are so many varying factors that a rolling road will never be as accurate as a proper engine dyno that can duplicate the exact conditions without the varying losses associated with the cars drivetrain, but no ones going to remove the engine every time they want a powertest in the commercial environment.
If conditions are kept as accurate as possible then a dyno can be used to show an indicated increase in performance though.

The most accurate method is to take several power runs in both states of tune and workout an average between them, although engine temperatures should be aimed to be kept similar if not exact in each condition, this requires a good cooling down period inbetween each measurement, particularly necessary on turbocharged engines which can suffer from ECU adaption to high intake and underbonnet temperatures as well as intercooler heatsoak.

 

[RSTuning]

^ seriously Poor 182 as std!!!!! Christ, that would be going bak to renault if mine dyno'd that bad.

So what's an average result from a 182 then? As John rightly stated most of the time the RR is purely to see the difference/gains.

The same car may show 190 on one and 170 on another. The only more accurate method i know of is an engine dyno but for obvious reasons this is not the best solution.

Paul