Should I replace OE induction after fitting cams?

[Mase]

Hi guys - (have 2002, 172) I have fitted cams a while back and got modest gains. Now the thing is during tuning with Henk my car didn't really display a rapid voltage drop from the front OE narrow band 02 sensor indicating the car was not flowing a lot of extra air up top. Now with the OE box and pipe mods / panel filter / std cams / hi flow exhaust and a good tune one realises the std airbox is just fine.

The question being..(to those with cams and a custom tune)..should I be replacing the OE box now as the limits of that set up are surpassed as the cams allow the engine to draw more pwr at the top end? FYI I have not noticed a improvement in MAP pressure drop accross the OE box with the cams. Still about 15 mb over the rev range at WOT.

Any comments appreciated - Jamie

 

[Dave.]

Mate mine pulls 193bhp with cams on standard airbox, with matched inlets. The airbox is well designed, have you got matched inlets?

 

[Mase]

Yep I have matched inlets. As a comparison I am seeing 110Kw ATW what ever that works out to in BHP at the fly?

Incidently as I have been advised one can expect a fair variation in F4R output from the factory. Mine always produced figures a little lower than other in basic std trim. It uses no oil and has done 107,000 kms.

Of note Henk had to r****d the the depahser at high RPM to realise max pwr. He said normally he doesn't have to do this. He felt the logs were showing the car was not flowing air as it should.

Don't get me wrong the car hauls along nicely..just I am sure it could be better.

 

[theduck]

How old is the filter? Could need replacing?

 

[Mase]

Nah it's a Green Cotton panel and I keep it clean. It's something else..

For example I have seen a data log of a car running my map (cam retarded at about 6800) same cams..the 02 voltage drops right off as the mixture leans out on that car as the cams really come on song. My car..nuthin The voltage value holds strong.

I am thinking there might be some well experienced techs out there who could perhaps drop some possibilities from the their vast experiences with these cars in the UK.

I have a wideband 02 fitted was well so am logging true AFR's and tuning to that.

 

[jack_kemp]

Danny or Fred are required at this point.....

 

[Dave.]

Yep coz I'm confused lol

 

[Mase]

Danny or Fred are required at this point.....

I think that's sideways danny? Fred too rings a bell. These guys have been a tremendous help before.

It's bed time down under so will drop in again in 8 hrs

 

[franx]

Yep I have matched inlets. As a comparison I am seeing 110Kw ATW what ever that works out to in BHP at the fly?

Incidently as I have been advised one can expect a fair variation in F4R output from the factory. Mine always produced figures a little lower than other in basic std trim. It uses no oil and has done 107,000 kms.

Of note Henk had to r****d the the depahser at high RPM to realise max pwr. He said normally he doesn't have to do this. He felt the logs were showing the car was not flowing air as it should.



Don't get me wrong the car hauls along nicely..just I am sure it could be better.

Henk done mine too, was there on his rollers. Funny that i'm also one of the few where he did the dephaser shutoff at high rpm.. The power died off pretty quickly at high rpm before he did this; now with the r****d it keeps on a bit further up.
He also said my induction setup, which is the Renault v6 box, worked out nicely as he could see from the data.
I'll show you the setup, mine also has the inlets matched, cams + 182 exhaustmani + decat btw.

 

[Fred@BTM]

sounds more like a cam timing issue to me

i use stock airboxes and stock filters

 

[sideways danny]

odd of Henk to say retarding the dephaser at top end revs isn't normally needed. I've never known it to not be needed to give an improvement. The switch point changes depending on the cams and inlet being used (plenum, ITBs etc)

Stock airbox is fine, better panel filter can make a difference, and there IS a difference between filters. Pipercross foam panel filter is the best for unrestricted airflow. Not tried a green cotton panel filter, but i like to use their cone filters on turbo cars.

What cams? were they fitted right?

 

[franx]

sounds more like a cam timing issue to me

i use stock airboxes and stock filters

I was thinking the same, timing issue. Thank god it worked out nicely with the timing as they went in because it got me pretty damn good torque and prob sacrificing a bit of topend. Torque curve on mine was a good steady one , in difference to some other cars with the same cams who had a dip along the curve

 

[maupineda]

Jaime, I have the ED cams as well as you know, I also have a V6 airbox but also ran them on the stock one with uprated feeds, must say the best is the V6 as the response was improved and the pressure on the mani was more steady and values higher all the time (though only tiniy bit). The std box is fine, just get rid of those crappy OEM hoses. That will do a difference, you aren't running the accoustic valve, are you? The right setup will definitely make difference, speacially with cams.

 

[Mase]

odd of Henk to say retarding the dephaser at top end revs isn't normally needed. I've never known it to not be needed to give an improvement. The switch point changes depending on the cams and inlet being used (plenum, ITBs etc)

Stock airbox is fine, better panel filter can make a difference, and there IS a difference between filters. Pipercross foam panel filter is the best for unrestricted airflow. Not tried a green cotton panel filter, but i like to use their cone filters on turbo cars.

What cams? were they fitted right?

Hi Fred / Danny - the cams are the ED Mk II. They were fitted using all OE tooling and done by our local snr Renault tech at my place so I partook in the work so can confirm it all went in correctly. Idle MAP @ 1100 is ~420 mb which seems normal for these cams. Car idles well, has good torque.

My stock box set up for those worried is with the valve removed and stock pipe replaced on the side intake. It made good pwr on std cams.

Perhaps it is just 'one of those things' and there is nothing 'wrong' perse I am just thinking there might because I was hoping for a better outcome in the numbers game

 

[Fred@BTM]

i'd 100% re check the cam timing, even the best of us can still **** things up, rules it out then

i've seen people drop a rocker off when fitting cams so you end up with a 15V

 

[Jamesstone]

As Franx has posted, the best solution we tested on the standard manifold was removing the elbow & installing the airbox straight off the TB then linked to a heat shield,

One we built for a customer with a race cell fitted along side -

Have you carried out a leak down test to make sure the engine is healthy?

 

[Mase]

Re leak down..no. That is really what should be done.

Fred - we actually had to do the cams twice. If you remember I had a few dodgey lifters. The crank was pinned correctly, cam tool locked firmly in place..not sure what else one can do?

Can anyone translate 110Kw ATW into fly BHP? What should I expect?

 

[Mase]

James - where would I get one of those what looks like a V6 box from? I like the set up. I was thinking of moving batt as you have done and laying ECU flat. Is this what you have done?

 

[Fred@BTM]

you can **** the timing up when tightening the pulleys onto the cams, if the pulley tool isn't tight enough the pulleys will move

and you checked the mark on the flywheel was lined up etc??

 

[Fred@BTM]

http://www.ramair-filters.com/calc.html

110KW is 149bhp

so thats about 173bhp approx, you should be on 190bhp (119KW @ wheels)

 

[Jamesstone]

James - where would I get one of those what looks like a V6 box from? I like the set up. I was thinking of moving batt as you have done and laying ECU flat. Is this what you have done?

V6 Airbox can be bought from Renault main dealer, If your looking for a package we supply airbox & panel filter (road/race) but we dont currently offer shipping outside of the UK

 

[Jamesstone]

http://www.ramair-filters.com/calc.html

110KW is 149bhp

so thats about 173bhp approx, you should be on 190bhp (119KW @ wheels)

Surely must be ATW?

 

[sideways danny]

cam tool locked firmly in place..not sure what else one can do?

Errrrr only the one tool??

 

[Mase]

http://www.ramair-filters.com/calc.html

110KW is 149bhp

so thats about 173bhp approx, you should be on 190bhp (119KW @ wheels)

OK thanks Fred. That's interesting re the pwr figs. Most if not all 172 RSC's in Aust are lucky to see low 100Kw / or just above ATW in std trim so well under 172 as per the cars name.

No I didn't check any markings on the fly wheel (trust mechanic) I watched Barry tighten the pulley's with the pulley locking tools (both ends) in place and saw no movement. Still it might be worth looking at. I might call a local perf mech who is the only other guy in the city I live in who has any knowledge of these cars.

Question - has anyone ever had issues with the dephaser solenoid that moves oil to the dephaser? I mine obviously works as the switching points have an effect but perhaps it is not fully engaging. Just a thought.

 

[Mase]

Errrrr only the one tool??

Sorry - yes locking tools both ends. The mech Barry is from the UK - much experience on these cars. All OE tooling. Does about 50 belts a yr.

 

[Mase]

Surely must be ATW?

Yep 110 kw ATW. As mentioned for some reason local 172 (& 182's mind you) generally produce around 100 Kw ATW. Everyone sort of accepts this here as fact.

Why would this be the case? Perhaps UK rolling roads are more optimistic than Australian ones.

We have about 2 V6 Clios here imported by owners..no Espace either. So these V6 units are very, very rare. Quite interested in one though.

 

[franx]

pretty damn low on power. good luck

 

[franx]

Jamesstone; that is a sexy looking setup ! very neatly done , wow

 

[Mase]

pretty damn low on power. good luck

This is a odd point franx - in Aust a std clio (172 & 182's) will produce around 100Kw ATW so mine is in fact higher in pwr in Aust @ 110Kw / 0-62 mph in mid to low 6 seconds - go figure? I would love that explained to me.

 

[franx]

torque is what we'll need next ? What was that ? (Newton meters of Footpounds)

Torque is what gets you to 62 mph in a fast way

 

[Mase]

172 Nm @ the wheels (edit - long flat curve).

Now I must add something here - 18 months back I was managing the same pwr figs and 10 Nm more with a custom tune from Henk. Top end pwr obviously dropped off a lot quicker on std cams..now holds long and strong...but...prior to fitting cams a couple of months back (base) pwr was at best using RSTuner PA 100 Kw and torque into 160's so it does look like the engine might have developed a little issue before cam fitting.

I have discussed this all with Henk last night and he is supporting it being a cam profile issue for me. He said my logs show the cam timing is fine.

Off to work now Will touch base later

 

[maupineda]

0-62 in mid 6's is not bad at all, I don't think there is a problem with your car Jaime. If it drives fast enough to you that is what matters, I would be worry if the car was being left behind or matched by stock one, other than that, it is just numbers.

 

[Mase]

0-62 in mid 6's is not bad at all, I don't think there is a problem with your car Jaime. If it drives fast enough to you that is what matters, I would be worry if the car was being left behind or matched by stock one, other than that, it is just numbers.

Yes it feels fast enough etc..I am just a fussy b*****d and want to make sure everything is as it should be I am sure the car could be better..maybe I should just leave it alone for a while Lol