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Turbos.
I don't like the misinformation that goes on this site, just having a lower/stiffer/whatever spring doesn't make a car handle better, it can even make things worse.
Personally i think there isn't much wrong with a standard Cup. I don't think there is anything wrong with the normal 172 either really. The Cup is a bit keener, but then it's also a bit scarier on the limit.
The Eibach is progressive and will alter it's stiffness depending on how hard you push. If you push too hard, you will run of travel and hit the bump stops, at which point the car is in control of you. The standard cars are well damped, and is unlikely to get you into that situation in the first place.
I don't mind the Eibachs, they improve the look, and up to 9/10ths they work. The car grips more, it will go faster, whats not to like? But if you were realy going for it they would come a cropper, and so, in my humble opinion, they don't make the car handle better.
It seems people only go here on what other people say, and you can't rely on some inexperienced Clio owner who compares his product to nothing else! I'n not saying everyone should listen to me, i by no means claim to know everything about suspension, but i do find it annoying that when someone questions what everyone else is saying, you get treated like you're a f**king weirdo!
Personally i think there isn't much wrong with a standard Cup. I don't think there is anything wrong with the normal 172 either really. The Cup is a bit keener, but then it's also a bit scarier on the limit.
The Eibach is progressive and will alter it's stiffness depending on how hard you push. If you push too hard, you will run of travel and hit the bump stops, at which point the car is in control of you. The standard cars are well damped, and is unlikely to get you into that situation in the first place.
I don't mind the Eibachs, they improve the look, and up to 9/10ths they work. The car grips more, it will go faster, whats not to like? But if you were realy going for it they would come a cropper, and so, in my humble opinion, they don't make the car handle better.
It seems people only go here on what other people say, and you can't rely on some inexperienced Clio owner who compares his product to nothing else! I'n not saying everyone should listen to me, i by no means claim to know everything about suspension, but i do find it annoying that when someone questions what everyone else is saying, you get treated like you're a f**king weirdo!
Nissan 350Z
^^^ Spot on fella. Excellent post. The standard Clio handles very well indeed IMO. Mine doesnt even have the cup packs. People have commented on it. OK, it looks a little high, but as long as it drives well I dont care. Actually one of the reasons i bought the clio above other cars is because i felt i probably would get a great handling car out of the box and i wasnt disappointed.
MINI JCW
pbirkett said:
Agree about the cup packs, I have them on mine but if you sat me in a 182 (without knowing if it had the cup sus pack or not) and asked me to drive I doubt I could tell whether the suspension pack was fitted or not.
Theres to many Fernando Alonso's on here, the average driver would get virtually identical lap times for all the RS Clios
cliobuyer said:
Right, so if it grips more and goes faster how does that not make the car handle better? If you are going faster then it's able to corner quicker... unless this suspension can add bhp, which I'd dispute. If you are really going for it as you say then at what point are we talking about having a crash? Maybe if you weren't so vague I'd take the piss a little less, but as you have even said yourself, 9 times out of 10 they make the car quicker, so in the other 1/10th the standard suspension must do something pretty special, or these spring must be really dangerous. Most people dont know how and cannot utilise a car to even half its capabilities, let alone more... I'm sure Chris didn't put new springs on his car to make it drive worse though. If Chris finds it easier, better, safer on 'his' limits to drive then they are better. If however a race drive laps quicker on stock then does that make stock suspension better? Technically I suppose it would, however none of it relates to us as average road users, so we go for whatever we find safer and easier to live with when pushed. An example would be an NSX, sure, it handles better than a Clio, but it wouldn't with most people here driving it, so is irrelevent.
Nissan 350Z
TheJesus said:
You are confusing grip with handling (like most people do).
182cup & 172 racecar
Just got to keep your foot on it,you can always through your pants awayRoy Munson said:I should add that it's easy to drive out of provoked oversteer. I doubt it's be so easy making a mistake @100mph on a track with the old ring piece doing party tricks
There is a lot of talk about lower and firmer springing making a Clio handle 'better' which in fundamental terms is incorrect (on public roads). Also setting up a car for a race track is totally different to setting up a road based suspension system.
What works on a smooth track is unlikely to work well on typically crumbly British asphalt. Hence the similar lap times for a Cup and a Trophy. The Trophy's spangly underpinnings just aren't taxed enough on a smooth track to show much advantage, they come into their own on a really challenging piece of broken tarmac.
The Trophy's sophisticated dampers and hydraulic bumpstops free-up the suspension to cope with really difficult roads allowing the body and driver to get on with the job of driving.
No Sport Clio handles badly but at 10/10ths non-Trophy cars are struggling, bucking, weaving and giving the bumpstops a good workout. My 172 becomes pretty messy on very fast bumpy roads, which is exactly where a Trophy would shine.
What works on a smooth track is unlikely to work well on typically crumbly British asphalt. Hence the similar lap times for a Cup and a Trophy. The Trophy's spangly underpinnings just aren't taxed enough on a smooth track to show much advantage, they come into their own on a really challenging piece of broken tarmac.
The Trophy's sophisticated dampers and hydraulic bumpstops free-up the suspension to cope with really difficult roads allowing the body and driver to get on with the job of driving.
No Sport Clio handles badly but at 10/10ths non-Trophy cars are struggling, bucking, weaving and giving the bumpstops a good workout. My 172 becomes pretty messy on very fast bumpy roads, which is exactly where a Trophy would shine.
M
M7CUO_V6
I agree with what 'speedynz' is saying totaly. I good handling car on a track is not necessarily gona be great on our roads and vica versa.
I lowered my valver, with lowering springs and adjusting the torsion bar, was great on smooth tarmac but as soon as you hit some uneven, bumpy road it was all over the place!
Sorry for getting off subject of trophy n cups.
I lowered my valver, with lowering springs and adjusting the torsion bar, was great on smooth tarmac but as soon as you hit some uneven, bumpy road it was all over the place!
Sorry for getting off subject of trophy n cups.
Gaz_
ClioSport Club Member
Extreme mode
to be fair the last few comments are right.
my cup is slammed for looks, but really i should raise it, as on b road thrash's it does tend to crash about and catch the liners lol. As i said in my post on the first page, the standard cup set up suprised me on broken surfaces..... i feel an experiment comming on.......
i shold try the trophy settings (height and toe) and see how i find that....
my cup is slammed for looks, but really i should raise it, as on b road thrash's it does tend to crash about and catch the liners lol. As i said in my post on the first page, the standard cup set up suprised me on broken surfaces..... i feel an experiment comming on.......
i shold try the trophy settings (height and toe) and see how i find that....
Nissan 350Z
TheJesus said:
But if it goes faster around bends, that does tend suggest more grip. More grip does not always equal better handling - handling is more about feedback to me, and is completely independent to cornering speed. For example, a car that relinquishes its grip earlier but does so in a progressive manner will be a better handling car than one that grips and grips and grips, but suddenly lets go in a violent, uncontrolled manner. Yet ultimately, the grippy car would probably corner faster, but it would not be the best "handling".
Personally, i think despite its high ride height, the standard clios are a good compromise on the road. Personally i never go near tracks anyway, so for me, super expensive suspension may well be a waste (at least until the current stuff is worn out).
RenaultSport clio 182 cup
Just a quick one
182 cup, Oulton last week, standard suspension, brakes, blue's, brembo, braided, higher temp fluid. Tyres A048R soft, melted quite splendidly, standard setup, very forgiving, plenty of control, it's the overall package that makes it sweet. The tyres and brakes made use of the excellent chassis, I didn't find the suspension lacking, if I do I'll change it
and I have driven some junk over many years, some of it very expensive.
cheers
182 cup, Oulton last week, standard suspension, brakes, blue's, brembo, braided, higher temp fluid. Tyres A048R soft, melted quite splendidly, standard setup, very forgiving, plenty of control, it's the overall package that makes it sweet. The tyres and brakes made use of the excellent chassis, I didn't find the suspension lacking, if I do I'll change it
and I have driven some junk over many years, some of it very expensive.
cheers
pbirkett said:
No it doesn't, your talking like grip and handling are unrelated, which they are not, they coexist. Handling to me is how much you can adjust the car, how well the car responds once you run out of grip, or are on the limit of it. If a car corners faster then to me that says it handles better. Take an Impreza for example, loads of grip but poor handling. You cant go into the bends as quickly as a Clio as they dont corner as well, however on exit they will make up for this due to immense grip that the Clio cant compete with. The two are closely related.
Thing about good suspension is you can run it with almost the same setup as stock, which is what I want to do with mine, only stiffen it up a bit more than standard and be slightly lower, as they are a bit spongy as standard I find. At the moment it's on its arse, stiff as hell and twitchy as f**k... great on smooth roads I'd imagine, but you dont get many of those in the NW... lol
I take it you have both never even driven one then? (and I dont mean sat in one and revved the engine to make the DV chatter )
I love people that put it up on some pedestal because they have a subscription to Max Power and read the 0-60 stats lol. Try driving one, the handling on them isn't that great, they understeer like f**k and have too much mechanical grip. You cant throw them into corners that fast, as people seem to think, but hey, if understeer is a sign of good handling to you guys then so be it :clown:
An Evo on the other hand is a different story, nimble and neutral in the corners, how any well setup car should be.
)I love people that put it up on some pedestal because they have a subscription to Max Power and read the 0-60 stats lol. Try driving one, the handling on them isn't that great, they understeer like f**k and have too much mechanical grip. You cant throw them into corners that fast, as people seem to think, but hey, if understeer is a sign of good handling to you guys then so be it :clown:
An Evo on the other hand is a different story, nimble and neutral in the corners, how any well setup car should be.
Weeman said:
Being passed by loads at the ring doesn't really mean much though does it, unless you know what mods they are running (as most are NOT standard) and driver experience and ability then it means very little. I'm talking about taking one out on your own and giving it a good thrashing. I've driven a fair few classics thanks to a few of my close mates being BIG Scooby fans and they will tell you the same and this is from stock to Pro Drive modified ones. They dont handle well, they just have loads of grip and once it goes you're f**ked.
As for getting a Golf round a corner as quick as a Clio? That's one of the funniest things I've heard all week, comic genius!
Trophy
The biggest mod you can make to a car is the driver! Learn to drive properly and you'll thrash the guy with Eibach this or de-cat that!
A friend of a friend can lap the 'Ring in 8.5 mins in a 1.8 Focus, he's a professional race driver and was one of the M5 development drivers, but it goes to show how important the driver is in the equation!
A friend of a friend can lap the 'Ring in 8.5 mins in a 1.8 Focus, he's a professional race driver and was one of the M5 development drivers, but it goes to show how important the driver is in the equation!
you sure your not just a better driver? A golf 'might' outhandle a Mk2 Ph1 172, but the Cups, Trophy's and Williams..? Cant see that myself, could be wrong, but just cant see it happening.Weeman said:
Clio's are not the best handling cars ever, but as far as FWD cars go there's not many better. ITR and Williams are two of the best handling FWD cars I've driven and been in, so you'll have to take me out in the Golf and scare me at the next meet so I can make my own mind up, I'm sure one of the standard Williams boys will have a go at some B-road battling lol. Where you based dude, there's a big NW meet being organised for Sunday the 1st at the JJB (Traffic Center), all welcome (in fact more non Williams the better, otherwise it will just be me getting abused off the Mk1 owners :rasp
chiefsilverback - soooo true, I've been OWNED before now by some lad in a Uno (not a turbo, some complete shitter it was!) who is a rally driver and this was round some roads I thought I knew pretty well. Think I had a Zetec-S at the time which isn't the quickest car by any means, but it handled extremely well.
Holland, And i dont race it about on normal roads i save it for the ring usually. will be there in two weeks if your around.
I aint saying its better handling as such, what i am saying is it will go round corners at the same speed, dont forget the amount of extra rubber massive 18 inch wheels give, more than the 16's on a clio. Yes its fat, but it has lots more grip than my mk 2 172 ever had, and it is alot faster round the bends. I aint getting into an arguement on this message board its pointless, cos its common knowledge that nothing is quicker round the twisties than a williams/cup/trophy.
I aint saying its better handling as such, what i am saying is it will go round corners at the same speed, dont forget the amount of extra rubber massive 18 inch wheels give, more than the 16's on a clio. Yes its fat, but it has lots more grip than my mk 2 172 ever had, and it is alot faster round the bends. I aint getting into an arguement on this message board its pointless, cos its common knowledge that nothing is quicker round the twisties than a williams/cup/trophy.
Cup 172
Is this still going on??? FFS
They are both good. The Trophy is better, but then for about twice the price of my Cup I would expect it to be better.
After test driving one I concluded that yes it was better, but not so much that it made me want to exchange my cup and 6k for one.
TP
They are both good. The Trophy is better, but then for about twice the price of my Cup I would expect it to be better.
After test driving one I concluded that yes it was better, but not so much that it made me want to exchange my cup and 6k for one.
TP
Golf GTI PP Mk7
Re: Trophy Vs 172cup
i have to agree, ive done it a few times. once i did a very (accidental drift half way round a rounabout, and somehow controlled it, i must of looked awesome (or like a c**k) but it was fun, and i didnt crap my pants either). great little cars, all of them, who cares whos it best.
i have to agree, ive done it a few times. once i did a very (accidental drift half way round a rounabout, and somehow controlled it, i must of looked awesome (or like a c**k) but it was fun, and i didnt crap my pants either). great little cars, all of them, who cares whos it best.
Roy Munson said:You can come and watch me if you want. It's quite easy to control a sliding Clio. Quick flick and a squeeze on the power and you can drive right out of it no drama at all. It's great fun on large empty roundabouts
no ones talking about 'racing' round on the roads, just a comparison, but as your in Holland it doesn't really matter.
would love to go to the Nurburgring, but that's in the plan for next year... would like to try and beat Mehdi's time in this thing :evil:
Well which is it, it's either as fast round the bends or it's faster :S lol
To me if a car handles better then it in turn means it will corner faster, but grip is not the be all and end all and only plays a part in a cars handling. Otherwise in theory I could just throw a set of 17's with wider tyres on and my car would handle better End of the day I doubt anyone in this club is capable of showing the differences as driver levels will vary from crap to just average (in the scheme of things), straightline power is whats going to make the difference to most... in which case the Cup is faster than a Trophy by all accounts.
would love to go to the Nurburgring, but that's in the plan for next year... would like to try and beat Mehdi's time in this thing :evil:
Well which is it, it's either as fast round the bends or it's faster :S lol
To me if a car handles better then it in turn means it will corner faster, but grip is not the be all and end all and only plays a part in a cars handling. Otherwise in theory I could just throw a set of 17's with wider tyres on and my car would handle better
End of the day I doubt anyone in this club is capable of showing the differences as driver levels will vary from crap to just average (in the scheme of things), straightline power is whats going to make the difference to most... in which case the Cup is faster than a Trophy by all accounts.
Handling is entrirely subjective. It's almost impossible to quantify.
Michael Schumacher has his car set up to suit his driving style...... Alonso might well get in it and think 'This thing handles like a bag of s**t".
Things like g force can give us a clue about grip etc but ultimately it's whatever you feel comfortable driving and suits your driving style. We are not machines - Everyone does things a little bit differently.
The older I get, the faster I was
Michael Schumacher has his car set up to suit his driving style...... Alonso might well get in it and think 'This thing handles like a bag of s**t".
Things like g force can give us a clue about grip etc but ultimately it's whatever you feel comfortable driving and suits your driving style. We are not machines - Everyone does things a little bit differently.
The older I get, the faster I was
Jon, he was getting mid to low 9's iirc, but only did 5 laps and it was his first time. Not bad at all really, I'll be happy as long as I get under 10 I think! lol
His first lap he said was 17 mins, as he spent it with the indicator on pulled over sh*tting bricks lol. Can't say I blame him, but if you dont know the track I can see it being more than just slightly intimidating... thank god for PGR3! lol
Ian, what's a man killing a horse got anything to do with anything? Does he even realise that the weight of the horse will damage it's internal organs if left in that position... hope he's not a friend of yours... you Golf owners are an odd bunch
His first lap he said was 17 mins, as he spent it with the indicator on pulled over sh*tting bricks lol. Can't say I blame him, but if you dont know the track I can see it being more than just slightly intimidating... thank god for PGR3! lol
Ian, what's a man killing a horse got anything to do with anything? Does he even realise that the weight of the horse will damage it's internal organs if left in that position... hope he's not a friend of yours... you Golf owners are an odd bunch
Nissan 350Z
Weeman said:
You are missing the point by a wide margin.
Its like Evo was saying in their FWD roundup, now forgive me that this wont be word for word, as the magazine is not in front of me right now, but I seem to recall that their main complaint of the Golf, is that it is a little too competent, and thus, boring. For example, you could have great fun in the others at 80 mph and be fully absorbed in the drive, but in the Golf, it just eats up the corners with little drama and fun. So you end up going faster, and faster and faster, until you are deep into license losing territory. Once you are there, instead of its chassis coming alive, it begins to run out of ideas, due to its lardy weight, and becomes uncomposed and clumsy.
So... that reads to me like, yes, the Golf is as fast as most around the bends, but the smaller hot hatches like the Clios are much more fun to drive, because they are so much more communicative and involving than the heavy, overly refined Golf.
And that to me, is what makes a good handling car. Not speed around a corner. I find it amusing how many people seem to completely forget its not about the speed, but the fun factor. The Clios ARE fast, and the ARE extremely good fun to drive at the same time. Many cars are fast, but a lot of them forget to be fun to drive.
Evo magazine recieves a giant check from Renault every month, or the Editor gets chewberts from the CEO of renault sport, thats clear for all to see. They are right though,clio is way more fun and entertaining to drive, when you find the limit of my car, it is going faster than i'd like to be and it can get hairy. I wasn't saying its a better drive, my thread two days after i got the golf, said "i miss the clio" i was merely commenting on the fact that some people think the clio cup/ trophy will go round a corner faster than any other vehicle on the road, or at least thats the impression this board gives on a large number of occasions.
Lots of cars better than my tank, dont have a problem admitting that though.
Lots of cars better than my tank, dont have a problem admitting that though.
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