Upgrade to Espace (2 Pot) Calipers

[Oliver_K4M]

There are discs from the R21 TXi existing, 285mm dia, PCD 4x100, center bore 61mm, but only 21mm thickness. I think too narrow.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/FRONT-BRAKE-DISCS-Renault-R21-TXi-2-0-140BHP-Hatch-/110877532004

and really "cheap"...

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

There are discs from the R21 TXi existing, 285mm dia, PCD 4x100, center bore 61mm, but only 21mm thickness. I think too narrow.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/FRONT-BRAKE-DISCS-Renault-R21-TXi-2-0-140BHP-Hatch-/110877532004

and really "cheap"...

Good one ! Allthough the thickness is indeed not correct. 285 is just a tad to small for these pads, a few more mm and it would be awesome.

 

[Oliver_K4M]

And what I have seen, even the disc hight is smaller, too.
Maybe the best is put the 300mm ScenicII discs on the turning lathe and reduce thier diameter, but then you have to re-balance them again, and this can not be done by everybody....

 

[MG cup]

Personally I wouldn't do that, potentially dangerous to have the pad lip not the disk and just generally not a nice idea, and to gain what really? Tiny improvement in pad contact area and slightly smoother application of pressure across that?That's nothing you will actually notice as a benefit. Waste of time, better just refitting the standard calipers IMHO.

I agree with Chip, i wouldn't feel all to safe if i would do that. I'm going to drop the discs of somwehere this week to get them reduced, about every metal shop has the ability to do this
Will do some measurements tonight.

Brakes arent a blackart to me either mate, Ive made up my own 4 and 6 pot conversions on multiple cars in the past using both aftermarket and secondhand OEM parts.

But to get a brakepad and then start chopping it up before you can fit it is just not a position I want to be in all to gain what from these "better" calipers? Tiny bit more even pressure over the pad, and a tiny increase in pad contact area, its just far too much hassle to go to just to gain such a tiny amount, and if you ever have an accident your insurance company could well throw a right wobbler at the bodged up brakes with chopped about pads etc.

If you are happy to get hands on, just make some brackets to mount a caliper at the right distance, or machine a disk to the right size, not start hacking up brake pads!

Got to agree with Chip to be honest. Its one thing having discs machined but f**king around with pads is another. Pads disintegrate pretty easy when giving them some stick on track for example, I would not feel comfortable putting lots of heat through them once I have taken big lumps out of them myself.

Agreed its not ideal but wouldn't put me off one bit, I'm not on about hacking them up with hammer and chisel or that, just take a few mm chamfer on a bench grinder( which essentially is what a disk is doing to the pads anyway) We used to do so all the time on trucks and expensive brake setups where a lip was on the disk but had not reached minimum thickness to stop the brakes from squeeling rocking /vibrating on the lip.

As said by Oliver potential for needing disks balanced again after machining with the rough castings of brake disks.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Well i have thought an thought about it but im going to create some brackets instead.
I decided this because its realy easy to make one for these calipers.
This way you can keep everything the way it is and still have the awesome 300mm discs
Im going to make this from a piece of wood first and use it as a mold for the metal ones.
Ill be happy to share the correct dimensions with you guys, when i know them.

 

[Oliver_K4M]

Maybe think also as a parallel next step, about specifying what sizes the "ideal" disc for the Espace calipers on the RS should have.
Diameter?
Thinkness?
Hight?

then it´s possible to search for a disc that might fit best and has 4 holes. For me it wouldn´t matter a lot if the PCD is 98mm oder 108mm, as the bolts are only sticking through, and the disc is centered by the hole in the middle. So it should not be a big problem to mill four long holes in it. If the hole in the middle is too big you could use adaption rings, if it´s too small machine it bigger. If all this is done with a good accuracy, then no balancing should be necessary.

/edit/

Only one remark, if you shift the calipers more radial, then you can be sure that 15" won´t fit anymore. I have the 300mm Scenic discs on my MeganeII (made a conversion from 280mm to 300mm by only exchanging the braket). http://my.twingo.rs/v/oliver/megane/brake_upgrade/

But then I it was really tight with my ATS 9x16ET30....

http://my.twingo.rs/v/oliver/megane/Auf_auto_1.JPG.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=3

Maybe the MeganeII caliper is little bigger compared to the Espace one as it´s also a 54mm diameter like RS stock, but you should keep this in mind.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I normally use card first, then wood, then metal when I knock up brackets for that sort of thing.

If you are going to do that, it might be worth looking at if you can get a bigger offset disk so that you can use a flat plate rather than having to step it?

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

I normally use card first, then wood, then metal when I knock up brackets for that sort of thing.

If you are going to do that, it might be worth looking at if you can get a bigger offset disk so that you can use a flat plate rather than having to step it?

Whith the idea i have in my head thats the only thing i need, flat metal plate 4 holes on the right spot and done.
Don't want to do more than this, will keep these discs.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cool, I got away with just making flat plates on the wilwoods on my corsa, and the 6 pots for my nova.

Could get away with a bigger disk really as there is loads of room between the caliper and the wheel, but TBH they are overkill anyway as the front only weights about 500kg on both wheels.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

How did the plates/brackets look Chip ?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ive not got any pics of them, but basically just as you are saying, 4 holes in a flat piece of plate about 10mm thick.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Is 10mm realy needed, wouldn't 7-8mm be enough ?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Is 10mm realy needed, wouldn't 7-8mm be enough ?

Depends what material you use, if its ally for example I would say 10mm is about the minimum.

I used 10mm steel on my corsa because that happened to give me just the right spacing for the disk anyway though, so if I went thinner I would have had to use washers anyway.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Depends what material you use, if its ally for example I would say 10mm is about the minimum.

I used 10mm steel on my corsa because that happened to give me just the right spacing for the disk anyway.

Yeah thats sound right for Ally. For steel you could get away with 7-8mm i assume.
Im going to measure the hight of the hub holes and then get a plate that thick.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah thats sound right for Ally. For steel you could get away with 7-8mm i assume.

Probably less, but I personally would sooner have too thick than not thick enough when I might be pushing the pedal through the floor practically sometime soon with a set of slicks on trying to stop in a hurry.

 

[MG cup]

Sorry but I can't help think if the calipers were only needing some taken of the disk diameter to fit( a few mm off was your words smokey) as in the disk offset was right then you can't just use a flat plate as there's no room to do so!

Do the calipers line up offset wise with the hubs when disks are on?

 

[hilldawg172]

If you use high carbon steel you could easily do 7/8mm would be more than strong enough, id do 10mm for low carb

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Sorry but I can't help think if the calipers were only needing some taken of the disk diameter to fit( a few mm off was your words smokey) as in the disk offset was right then you can't just use a flat plate as there's no room to do so!

Do the calipers line up offset wise with the hubs when disks are on?

By a few mm i in this case mean about 5/6mm per hub hole, but this is purely an estimate.

 

[Oliver_K4M]

But if you need adaption brackets, then there isn´t any reason to use especially these Espace calipers, then you can use any you want....

 

[Chip-mk1]

But if you need adaption brackets, then there isn´t any reason to use especially these Espace calipers, then you can use any you want....

Agreed!

If they arent an easy fit, why use dirty great lumps of sliding iron, instead of some nice ally 4 pots off a fiat coupe or similar.

 

[jjones82]

Well theres a seller on ebay selling grand scenic discs, he said that for an extra £25 quid he can lathe the discs to either 288/290mm.
However the discs will be non-refundable if this is the case, if anyone interested i'l put the ebay link up to the seller

 

[Oliver_K4M]

Good offer if he also balances them.

 

[jjones82]

I've asked about the balancing, so just waiting on a response.
Fingers crossed

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Well plans changed again, regarding the advice to put on some better calipers.
I can buy some Alfa 166 Brembo Calipers for a VERY decent price.

Since i have to fabricate some brackets anyway might aswell go for some nice realy nice ones.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Well plans changed again, regarding the advice to put on some better calipers.
I can buy some Alfa 166 Brembo Calipers for a VERY decent price.

Since i have to fabricate some brackets anyway might aswell go for some nice realy nice ones.

That looks more like it.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

That looks more like it.

The connection of the brake lines will this be the same fitment?
Sounds like something you should know with all your brake adventures Chip

 

[Chip-mk1]

Im afriad I dont know off hand what thread goes into alfa brembos, but even if its not the same its trivial to just get a pair of braided lines made up with alfa one end and renault the other.
Merlin Motorsport or Think Automotive are both good for this in the UK, but I wouldnt know where to go in Holland.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Im afriad I dont know off hand what thread goes into alfa brembos, but even if its not the same its trivial to just get a pair of braided lines made up with alfa one end and renault the other.
Merlin Motorsport or Think Automotive are both good for this in the UK, but I wouldnt know where to go in Holland.

Ok assuming the lines are all the same for brembo's will it fit then ?

If this all fits its going to be a definate min. for 16" though.

This is on a 16" wheel
Looks huge and awesome though

 

[Chip-mk1]

Assuming the line physically bolts in and seals you will be fine, its only a way of pushing fluid in and isnt particular exact with regards to sizing etc.

Best thing you can do is look at the line used on the Alfa to see how it compares.

And bear in mind you need to make sure its long enough if you are locating it further away.

Final thing to watch is you might want to locate the disks further inboard as there may not be enough clearance for the outer 2 pots between your disk and wheel, easy to test this by putting them together off the car though to check for clearance first.

 

[syko6288]

What disc would you run with those calipers and i assume pads for specific alfa model that the 4 pots came off

Whats needed for the brackets as i can get hold of fiat coupe 20v turbo 4 pots through work but aint got a clue about the bracket ??

 

[neil a]

I tried one of my old Porsche Brembos inside a 16" Turini just to check for clearance, and think a 300mm disk would easily go with a fairly simple bracket.

 

[Oliver_K4M]

Some interesting facts in general, use a translation machine...

http://300mm.de/felgen/felgen.htm

http://300mm.de/bremsanlage.htm

 

[trickznoodle]

Since the idea of this thread is to discover the easiest-to-find calipers, and the OP abandoned the Espace combo, I'm wondering what are the next calipers in line, as per effectiveness and availability.

For instance, in my country, the Brembos from 197/200 or 225/etc are impossible to find.

Easy available Brembos are from the e38 bmw, as the vendors say.

Do all Alfa 166 come with Brembos? What about the Peugeot 406 coupe?

 

[MG cup]

The Espace calliper conversion is possible you just need to machine disks, hubs or calipers or I have a complete 197/225 kit for sale just now that suits the standard 280mm disks, no modification needed.

Sale thread: http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?666845-172-182-Brembo-Brake-Upgrade

 

[trickznoodle]

Machining the disc means it's no longer an "out of the box" solution. The point was to be as plug-and-play as possible. Seeing as the Espace calliper would fit best if brackets are used, the original poster made a point that it requires the same effort as fitting other, more useful calipers.

As for other country shopping, I somehow believe the shipping price would be massive... that's why this topic was made: for sourcing the most commonly available brake upgrade.

 

[MG cup]

The calliper fits and is the right offset for scenic disks from what smokey has said, all that need's done is the disk diameter reduced which is pretty trivial. You wont get much easier when borrowing parts from other cars to do a brake upgrade. I done a similar conversion on my fiesta, hubs needed drilled for that but is easy, same as having a disk machined is easy.

Postage doesn't have to be expensive, I buy parts all the time from private sellers in Europe, it depends if your country apply a customs tax etc.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

I got some Alfa 166 Brembo Calipers this morning for 50 pounds (couldn't let them go for this price......)
These are awesome, huge calipers wich should just fit in 16" wich the 300mm scenic discs.

I came across a bracket design (in pdf) for these on a alfa 145 aswell, half of the dimensions are already correct only needs alfa145 hub holes different and your done.

Can an admin change the title again to lets say : "Brake Upgrade for the small wallet"
Seems the best name for this topic now.

 

[syko6288]

How difficult would it be for fiat coupe 20v turbo calipers to fit ?

Normaly a 305mm disc but not sure on pcd so could i use scenic discs on these calipers

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

How difficult would it be for fiat coupe 20v turbo calipers to fit ?

Normaly a 305mm disc but not sure on pcd so could i use scenic discs on these calipers

Al down to the bracket you make, doesn't make a difference for wich calipers you make a bracket anyway.

For the ones interested in the alfa 166 Calipers -> PDF to the bracket design and dimensions.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/wrinx/Personal/Technical/166caliperbracket.pdf

This is NOT for the clio, the dimensions need to be altered for this.

 

[Oliver_K4M]

The calliper fits and is the right offset for scenic disks from what smokey has said, all that need's done is the disk diameter reduced which is pretty trivial. ....

You always forget balancing....