Upgrade to Espace (2 Pot) Calipers

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah I really noticed it, in fact so much so that I binned the calipers and fitted willwoods instead, I absolutely hated the spongy feel. It is possible to change the MC but I decided to replace the calipers instead as the other ones were so damn heavy anyway.

Have you weighed these ones and the old ones? Would be interesting to see the difference in unsprung weight (disks included preferably)

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

The difference in disc weight is minimal : 7.1Kg (default Brembo 172/182) to 8.2Kg (scenic Brembo).
Do not really know what the difference in calipers is, cannot be much more though. After having handeled them both its not much more (say 20-25% heavier).

 

[Chip-mk1]

The difference in disc weight is minimal : 7.1Kg (default Brembo 172/182) and 8.2Kg (scenic Brembo).

Cool, what about the calipers?

Couple of kg isnt something most people are going to notice

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Cool, what about the calipers?

Couple of kg isnt something most people are going to notice

Well i checked the caliper weight. For the two its only 1 extra kg (over the normal ones).

 

[Chip-mk1]

That's very good, was expecting more than that

lets hope the pedal feel is ok then, if so it looks like a cool upgrade.

 

[MG cup]

Fit a 197 MC if its an issue, I'm sure there is a thread here somewhere, you have to adjust pipe work iirc.

I also did a similar upgrade on my fiesta Zetec s van with mondeo calipers and 300 mm disks, with its lack of power being a 1.8 diesel you could actually feel the difference to accelerate and braking effort needed with the bigger mass of the disk to speed up and slow down.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

I already have been checking out all the options if this needs to be done and found the threads about this
If it turns out to be needed ill go for the 406 v6 mc (way more common here than renault sports) and fits straigt on aswell.
The issue with the pipe work can be solved realy easy -> two of these and job done (no need to adjust the piping after this).
This will also work for the 197 mc as its 4x m10 aswell, just as the 406 mc.

M12>M10 Converter

 

[MG cup]

Good solution if the thread size is the only issue.

 

[James28]

You got them fitted yet! Its saturday!

 

[sinnie92]

cmon smokey, my fried breakfast is nearly ready and i want some interesting reading

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Bad news it does not fit directly to the hub . It does without the 300mm brake disc but it does not WITH the brake disc.
The bolts are just a few mm shy of fitting.

I dont have any time anymore now, but will give more information later today.

 

[MG cup]

Bad news smokey, i did think there would be a problem but from what you have said a little bit off the disks diameter on the lathe to save you wasting cash on those disks untill you find different disk. Aren't fiat 20v turbo same PCD and centre bore as Clio and they have 288m disks iirc. What's the pad coverage like on the 280mm standards?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Refit the old disks. Measure the clearance between them and the calipers and find a slightly smaller disk to suit?

 

[Gaz.]

Fiats are 4x98, not 4x100.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Will probably be reducing the diameter of the discs to let say 290 and then try to fit them again.
The metal shops should be able to do this

http://youtu.be/XywzvflxmGY

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah no drama lathing them down. Just a pain if you need to replace them in a hurry for a trackday etc.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Its beyond me how Noos got this to work and mount it.
After studying this picture from his topic, i am 99% sure he used the standard 280mm disc and not a 300mm one.

 

[Gaz.]

Surely you need to look for a disc the same diameter as the Espace, but with the offset of the Clio disc in 4x100.

VW, Vauxhall,Rover,Honda might come up with something in the disc catalogues?

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Surely you need to look for a disc the same diameter as the Espace, but with the offset of the Clio disc in 4x100.

VW, Vauxhall,Rover,Honda might come up with something in the disc catalogues?

This will only make it worse The espace uses 305mm discs. The reason it isn't fitting properly is because the discs are just a bit to big.
You need another hub or reduce the size of the discs a bit (i'm going down the second road).

 

[syko6288]

How much smaller do the discs need to be smokey ???

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

I triple checked the pictures and can now 100% confirm the pic from Noos is with the 280mm standard disc.
The pad seem to be partially over the edge off the disc when looking at his picture.
Secondly by comparing the picture from Noos to my own "pre fitment" pictures a few points show idential location off the caliper/pad/disc. Again confirming what i said.
There is some space available but it isn't much, im realy realy confident that reducing the discs to lets say 288/290mm will result in a 100% succesfull upgrade.
By reducing the size it should not give any less braking performance. Its still the same ammount of contact (full pad) thats in contact with the disc.

 

[Gaz.]

A simple bracket and you could use the full size discs

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

A simple bracket and you could use the full size discs

I agree this would work but this is way to much of a hassle for me. The easiest solution is to get them reduced in size a bit.

 

[jjones82]

Not sure if these will work but may have possibly found some 288mm discs if anyone wants to double check / confirm theyl fit?
http://www.lmfvauxhall.co.uk/EBC-4-Stud-288mm-Turbo-Groove-Front-Brake-Discs.html are on the lmf website for a corsa with pcd 4x100 there a little pricey though, but if you go to ebc website and type in the product code without the g you get
http://www.ebcbrakesdirect.com/search/default.asp?part=D1480&x=0&y=0&v1=car&t1= which i assume is the non drilled ones at £90ish quid so not too bad.
Can anyone confirm that they'l fit though as i'm unsure if LMF buy them as 5 stud discs then redrill them to 4? So the ebc may be 5 stud?

 

[syko6288]

Problem with useing non renault is the disc height (offset kind of) and also the centre hole size

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah vauxhall are less offset and smaller bore size.

Tbh if you are into making custom brackets or machining disks, may as well just get some willwoods or similar and do it properly.

on my corsa I redrilled some cossie disks, used secondhand willwoods and made some brackets. Total cost 350 ish.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Yeah vauxhall are less offset and smaller bore size.

Tbh if you are into making custom brackets or machining disks, may as well just get some willwoods or similar and do it properly.

on my corsa I redrilled some cossie disks, used secondhand willwoods and made some brackets. Total cost 350 ish.

Exactly Chip, if your going to go on this route you might as well go with brembo/wilwood calipers.
For me this upgrade is only interesting because of the price. For the total im now in for about 180 pounds in parts.

 

[syko6288]

The espace mk3 (grand espace) 2.0 16v has 288mm discs but 28mm wide

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

I checked that but these won't work because they are 5 holes instead of 4.
Easiest to do is to get the 300mm scenic discs reduced/lathered, the rest of the dimensions are spot on.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Easy enough to drill 4 holes in the 5 stud. (Or drill 3 if its same pcd)

 

[MG cup]

TBH why don't you use the standard disks as you will only have a few mm's of overhang by the look of it. Chamfer the edge of the pad to suit, the extra clamping force the two pistons will have should be enough and you will still see an improvement I would think.

 

[Chip-mk1]

TBH why don't you use the standard disks as you will only have a few mm's of overhang by the look of it. Chamfer the edge of the pad to suit, the extra clamping force the two pistons will have should be enough and you will still see an improvement I would think.

Personally I wouldn't do that, potentially dangerous to have the pad lip not the disk and just generally not a nice idea, and to gain what really? Tiny improvement in pad contact area and slightly smoother application of pressure across that?That's nothing you will actually notice as a benefit. Waste of time, better just refitting the standard calipers IMHO.

 

[SmokeyTheBandit]

Personally I wouldn't do that, potentially dangerous to have the pad lip not the disk and just generally not a nice idea, and to gain what really? Tiny improvement in pad contact area and slightly smoother application of pressure across that?That's nothing you will actually notice as a benefit. Waste of time, better just refitting the standard calipers IMHO.

I agree with Chip, i wouldn't feel all to safe if i would do that. I'm going to drop the discs of somwehere this week to get them reduced, about every metal shop has the ability to do this
Will do some measurements tonight.

 

[hilldawg172]

What diameter you gonna get them reduced to smokey? Around 290?

 

[Chip-mk1]

What diameter you gonna get them reduced to smokey? Around 290?

Best bet is to measure the standard ones clearance to the caliper, and get it done to suit accordingly (just remember to double the difference when comparing diameter!)

 

[MG cup]

Personally I wouldn't do that, potentially dangerous to have the pad lip not the disk and just generally not a nice idea, and to gain what really? Tiny improvement in pad contact area and slightly smoother application of pressure across that?That's nothing you will actually notice as a benefit. Waste of time, better just refitting the standard calipers IMHO.

I agree with Chip, i wouldn't feel all to safe if i would do that. I'm going to drop the discs of somwehere this week to get them reduced, about every metal shop has the ability to do this
Will do some measurements tonight.

For all the difference there seems to be from pictures for the 280mm disk, couldn't be more than a 5mm overhang( around 8cm squared of area you will loose) I say this idea as its an easier option for the conversion as most people will be put off by needing disks machined, makes sense for smokey as he has disks already. Main benefit of this conversion would be the ability do deal with heat for me and added pressure, these callipers are fitted to vans and very large cars, going to see a good increase in braking irrelevant.

 

[Chip-mk1]

For all the difference there seems to be from pictures for the 280mm disk, couldn't be more than a 5mm overhang( around 8cm squared of area you will loose) I say this idea as its an easier option for the conversion as most people will be put off by needing disks machined, makes sense for smokey as he has disks already. Main benefit of this conversion would be the ability do deal with heat for me and added pressure, these callipers are fitted to vans and very large cars, going to see a good increase in braking irrelevant.

Lipping the pads is dangerous though, Ive actually seen a car where the pads worn when someone had done that and the lips on the pads made contact meaning that there was NO clamping force on the disk. Eeekk!

Do it properly or dont do it, its the brakes, its important.

And the gains from a slightly bigger caliper and a slightly bigger pad on the same disk will be VERY minimal, so you are taking safety risks with your brakes just to gain practically nothing.

 

[MG cup]

I did say chamfer the pad to avoid contact between the pads when worn, brakes aren't some black art to me, not to be messed with for your average person but use your head and you'll be okay.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I did say chamfer the pad to avoid contact between the pads when worn, brakes aren't some black art to me, not to be messed with for your average person but use your head and you'll be okay.

Brakes arent a blackart to me either mate, Ive made up my own 4 and 6 pot conversions on multiple cars in the past using both aftermarket and secondhand OEM parts.

But to get a brakepad and then start chopping it up before you can fit it is just not a position I want to be in all to gain what from these "better" calipers? Tiny bit more even pressure over the pad, and a tiny increase in pad contact area, its just far too much hassle to go to just to gain such a tiny amount, and if you ever have an accident your insurance company could well throw a right wobbler at the bodged up brakes with chopped about pads etc.

If you are happy to get hands on, just make some brackets to mount a caliper at the right distance, or machine a disk to the right size, not start hacking up brake pads!

 

[John Gordon]

Got to agree with Chip to be honest. Its one thing having discs machined but f**king around with pads is another. Pads disintegrate pretty easy when giving them some stick on track for example, I would not feel comfortable putting lots of heat through them once I have taken big lumps out of them myself.