Heel toe and double de-clutch video...

[MarkCup]

...I think. I read how to do the double de-clutch thing and have been practicing it for a while. I know it's technically not necessary, but when going for it, it really makes the next gear engage easier, less resistance.

Advice welcome

Click

Also, WTF was the rumbling from the brakes on the last two runs? Have I got a cracked disc? I guess after 80k, it's due its third front pair.

 

[S22 JGS]

i cant even do the rev thing while braking LOL

looks good though

 

[Waitey]

I've been heel toeing for about 1.5 years now. I've never seen the need to double declutch on a down shift. For me it actually slows a change down. Where as a good rev matching blip and single clutch action will make for a quicker change.

 

[BrianR]

...I think. I read how to do the double de-clutch thing and have been practicing it for a while. I know it's technically not necessary, but when going for it, it really makes the next gear engage easier, less resistance.

Advice welcome

Click

Also, WTF was the rumbling from the brakes on the last two runs? Have I got a cracked disc? I guess after 80k, it's due its third front pair.

Are you up for some well intentioned criticism/help Mark ?

 

[Waitey]

The main bit i can only think about is that your gearbox has a syncromech for a reason. Sure double decluch if driving an very old HGV or a non syncro'd race car. I'm pretty sure your not gaining anything from it on a road car.

 

[MarkCup]

...I think. I read how to do the double de-clutch thing and have been practicing it for a while. I know it's technically not necessary, but when going for it, it really makes the next gear engage easier, less resistance.

Advice welcome

Click

Also, WTF was the rumbling from the brakes on the last two runs? Have I got a cracked disc? I guess after 80k, it's due its third front pair.

Are you up for some well intentioned criticism/help Mark ?

Absolutely, fire away.

 

[BrianR]

Ok, first observation, you are sitting too far back from the wheel.

Look at the vid and see how much of your left leg is involved when you use the clutch…nearly all of it is moving.
Firstly this is tiring, then you are unbalancing your seat and compensating by holding yourself in place through the steering wheel, again tiring.

See if you can find some touring car in-car vid and see how close they sit to the wheel and how they don’t use the straight arm F1 style.


The Clio pedals are not well positioned for heel and toe, they are too far off the mats for you to rest your heel and roll your foot, which is the correct technique.
Try making up a heel pad to raise your feet so when your sitting relaxed the balls of your feet are in the centre of the big pedals.

If you simply roll your right foot without repositioning it, you should be able to blip the throttle, if not try fitting a different shaped pedal pad till you can.

Want to go on or are you naffed off already?

 

[MarkCup]

Please continue

 

[BrianR]

Practice the technique in the car without driving till you can do it without moving a muscle above your knee.
Your double-declutching is good apart from the previous remarks about how much unnecessary effort you’re putting into it.
Double de clutching is an important part of making smooth down changes. To understand why, you need to know how a gearbox is laid out, are you up for that?

 

[BrianR]

The box has three main shafts holding the gears, the first motion shaft and the lay shaft are the two that hold the gears together as they slide back and forward to engage the different ratios.
Modern synchromesh boxes make sure that the speed of the gear cogs, match as near as possible before engaging, this is good enough for normal driving and most of the high speed stuff you can achieve safely on the public roads.
On a track you are using a very narrow power band to keep your speed up and that involves more frequent and quicker gear changes.
You are, if your doing it right, changing faster than the synchromesh can keep up with.
When you dip the clutch the first motion shaft will continue to spin as the clutch disengages, then you shift the next ratio along the lay shaft which is still turning at a higher speed if you are changing down or visa-versa if you changing up.
By releasing the clutch briefly in the neutral position you allow the shafts to catch up with each other and help the synchromesh to do its job.

Double declutching on an up change doesn’t really achieve much, and wastes time but on a down change when you are already off the throttle and on the brakes it can make a nice clean shift when you get the right amount of throttle blipped at the right time.
You will know when it’s right, it just feels so smooth

 

[davejm123]

is your knowledge endless brian...!!

 

[Jamie]

Top knowledge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts29KKhKXds

I have size 8/9 feet and i find it very diff to heel and toe, i try to rest my heel on the brake and just use the top of my foot to press the throttle. i have tried and tried but i end up concentrating on one area, as i either brake very hard or rev high.

 

[Lam7r]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts29KKhKXds

Now thats a skillful driving technique

 

[BrianR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts29KKhKXds

Now thats a skillful driving technique

Nice find.

Thats more about left foot braking to keep the speed of the engine up to provide turbo boost out of the corners. Pity the film was running at 150% speed though, and did he never make any gear change other than 3rd to 4th ?

What it does show well, is the fact his heels are mostly in contact with the floor and he is using the foot-rest to relax his foot and brace himself, see how its set at the same hight as the clutch, no wasted effort in moving his foot over.

It also shows the skill of rolling his right foot onto the throttle, good stuff that !

The modern WRC cars and Touring cars with sequential boxes need a different technique, just as skillful though

 

[mini-valver]

How come you have to clutch in, neutral, clutch out, blip throttle, clutch in, gear, clutch out?
Can it not be done as clutch in, blip throttle, gear, clutch out? Thus saving going to neutral and back into gear??
Or will the synchros not be catching up without going into neutral as Brian describes?

 

[MarkCup]

Thanks for your responses Brian.

I've often thought that a footrest would give me greater control, and the driving position is the next thing on my list. Wheel position at the moment is terrible, I need it to be at least 2 inches closer minimum.

Plus, on the clips I did have to compromise both wheel and seat position to get a good enough camera angle so I was a little over extended.

 

[MarkCup]

How come you have to clutch in, neutral, clutch out, blip throttle, clutch in, gear, clutch out?
Can it not be done as clutch in, blip throttle, gear, clutch out? Thus saving going to neutral and back into gear??
Or will the synchros not be catching up without going into neutral as Brian describes?

From what Brian wrote I think the blip when in neutral helps the syncromesh catch up, which is why when I do it, say from 3rd to 2nd at 50mph+, engaging 2nd is smoother after a blip in neutral first.

 

[mini-valver]

Understood! Ive done it before without going to neutral and just blipped with the clutch down because i had no idea you had to actually be in neutral with the clutch out! But it does work, was from 4th to 3rd at about 70.

Ill try it going on to neutral and see what happens though to see wether it feels any smoother than just bliping with the clutch in!

 

[BrianR]

I had another look at your Vid this morning Mark, and it does look like you could do with being a bit closer to the controls.

You have a very good basic technique now you need to make it easier for yourself.

A full harness makes life a lot more comfy if you can put up with the fiddling about fitting them for track days.

When changing down from 4th to 2nd, why not do it in one, saves time and your hands are back where the should be sooner.

One other small point, your hands need to be above the cross spokes of the wheel to get a better push and pull going 10-2 is the classic position. And don't put your thumbs inside the wheel. If the unthinkable happens and you hold on to the wheel, you will hear the noise as your thumbs snap.


The throttle blip down change is great when you get it right, even on the road.

I learnt to drive without using the clutch, its a great test of getting your road speed and gear changes coordinated.
It wasn't something I set out to learn, I just had crappy BMC cars like Minis and MGs with clutch slave cylinders that would blow out regularly.

Try it ,next time you have a loan car :evil:

 

[Mikey]

...I think. I read how to do the double de-clutch thing and have been practicing it for a while. I know it's technically not necessary, but when going for it, it really makes the next gear engage easier, less resistance.

Advice welcome

Click

Also, WTF was the rumbling from the brakes on the last two runs? Have I got a cracked disc? I guess after 80k, it's due its third front pair.

mate its nescessary for a racing car otherwise if you just bang it down a gear the wheels lock as your coming into a braking zone, double de-clutching is vital and i think you should be practicing it dude, good on ya , once youve cracked it it works a treat anything upto 5 tenths of a second a corner, also left foot braking is another great skill if done correctly

 

[TomTom]

Brian are you an ex-traffic cop? lol You give a lot of good advice

Good driving Mark aswell

 

[BrianR]

...

also left foot braking is another great skill if done correctly

I would leave the left foot braking to the experts unless your car is set up specifically for it, or you will end up, upside down with nothing on the clock.

 

[Paul J]

I have had a dabble at this a couple of times but find heel/toe hard. Pedal posistions certainly dont help, although i havent really dedicated much effort into trying. I quite often blip the throttle but not whilst on the brakes so i can see where the benefits are.


I have mastered this and can do it really smoothly thanks to years of work vans lol

I learnt to drive without using the clutch, its a great test of getting your road speed and gear changes coordinated.
It wasn't something I set out to learn, I just had crappy BMC cars like Minis and MGs with clutch slave cylinders that would blow out regularly.

Try it ,next time you have a loan car :evil:

 

[Mikey]

I would leave the left foot braking to the experts unless your car is set up specifically for it, or you will end up, upside down with nothing on the clock.

left foot braking is fairly easy and is great for stopping understear in wet conditions dude.

 

[BrianR]

left foot braking is fairly easy and is great for stopping understear in wet conditions dude.

Go for it then, and Ill just watch

 

[PYE21]

Ive been trying this for a while as well. I basically came to the same conclusion as Brian, the pedals are in a really horrible position for it to be done 'naturally'. I will be changing the seat in mine in a month or so and im then going to try again once my driving position is sorted.

 

[Andy_J]

nice thread, i've been playing with double shifts and foot rolling but not had the balls to do it when driving hard yet... not confident being in neutral coming into corners etc just incase i feck the change if u know what i mean.

 

[BrianR]

nice thread, i've been playing with double shifts and foot rolling but not had the balls to do it when driving hard yet... not confident being in neutral coming into corners etc just incase i feck the change if u know what i mean.

Don't try and do it at racing speeds until you have developed the technique.

Its a bit like learning to roller skate, take it slowly and it will come.

Golden rules are, the engine is for going, the brakes are for stopping.

Never allow the engine to do the braking or you unbalance the car as the weight shifts forward.
Get all your braking and gear changing in a straight line before the point where you turn in and apply the power as smoothly as you can coming out, leave all this tail end out stuff to the barry boys, drifters and J. Clarkson. it may look spectacular but its just slowing you down.

One of the best drivers I ever watched was Jackie Stewart, smooth as silk nothing hurried but very, very quick. Anyone who ever saw motor racing at Crystal Palace in south London, will remember Jackie Stuart and Graham Hill when they raced Lotus Cortinas. Absolutely amazing car control, and the only place to go if they came off was into a bank made of railway sleepers at the edge of the track, or into the trees.


Pass my slippers.....................................

 

[BrianR]

Hey, guess what I found.......
Just in case anyone thought I was laying it on about the railway sleepers, check the mini crashing.

Thats Old Hall corner, I used to marshall on top of that bank, Ha Ha, can you imagine them allowing that now.
They also used to run single seater's round there.

There is some footage somewhere of James Hunt loosing his temper and giving it stick in a Formula 2 car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWp-0TuY4Sk

 

[Mikey]

Go for it then, and Ill just watch

mate i dont want to sound big headed but im 18 and iv had ten years race experience, 8 of those in karting and 2 years racing in saloons, and yes il admit even the best drivers get it wrong sometimes, but i think its good experience for a young driver like myself.

 

[eo52vug]

awesome vid that !

 

[Andy_J]

nice thread, i've been playing with double shifts and foot rolling but not had the balls to do it when driving hard yet... not confident being in neutral coming into corners etc just incase i feck the change if u know what i mean.

Don't try and do it at racing speeds until you have developed the technique.

Its a bit like learning to roller skate, take it slowly and it will come.

Golden rules are, the engine is for going, the brakes are for stopping.

I've done a few trackdays in various cars and although a begginer i consider myself as a pretty good driver, i seem to find the right lines etc etc. i would also say i'm a pretty aggressive driver but i think that is just my style. (maybe this will change as i grow up)

Not really ready for left foot braking or heel toe on track, left foot braking is so hard to master.. u gotta be so soft, unlike the clutch!

I gave my clio some real stick on the track but the other cars i've been on track in haven't been mine and most of them it was the first time driving them so not pushing them too hard cos i dont know their limits and dont wanna bin/bend a car that isn't mine!! (although i did bin my brothers golf! whoops)

I think i'll have a go at double clutching and try and gradually try it driving harder the more confident i get!

Ma clio is too slow for the track anyway, i need to find myself a wee willy/valver for the track!

 

[riz]

whats benefit of double clutching can u not blip throttle before change?

 

[Andy_J]

if u read the tread fully you will get the jist. faster to downshift and matching revs saves on transmission, use the brakes to stop the car not the engine... cos brakes are cheaper.

 

[Sami]

mate i dont want to sound big headed but im 18 and iv had ten years race experience, 8 of those in karting and 2 years racing in saloons, and yes il admit even the best drivers get it wrong sometimes, but i think its good experience for a young driver like myself.

I think he meant for the majority of us, if you've never used your left foot to brake before its far far from easy.

 

[Carlos Fandango]

Have been heel & toeing for some time now and find that on the Clio the accelerator could do with being a cm or so higher bringing it more on a level when the brake is pressed, even thinking of having an ali spacer made to go between pedal and alloy pedal top............if you know what I mean?

 

[BrianR]

Have been heel & toeing for some time now and find that on the Clio the accelerator could do with being a cm or so higher bringing it more on a level when the brake is pressed, even thinking of having an ali spacer made to go between pedal and alloy pedal top............if you know what I mean?

Years ago there was a bolt on accelerator pedal for heal & toe on minis, sold by Paddy Hopkirk.
Perhaps its time to revive it..

 

[almaghrbi]

Thanks for your responses Brian.

I've often thought that a footrest would give me greater control, and the driving position is the next thing on my list. Wheel position at the moment is terrible, I need it to be at least 2 inches closer minimum.

Plus, on the clips I did have to compromise both wheel and seat position to get a good enough camera angle so I was a little over extended.

A good seating position is worth a second, Imagine what a very good seating position will do!!! This is the most important and always neglected. It is the way to be one in the car and feel the chasis setup!

 

[dannyboy172]

Top advice Brian - good efforts Mark.

I really want to practice this, but i'm sh1t lol

 

[Graham Gooch]

Its nice to know what Brian says about sitting close.

I saw a program ages ago where Johnathon Palmer was talking about good driving fast, he basically said you should be able to rest the top of your wrist on the steering wheel with a bent arm.

I've been heel/toeing for around 4-5 years now, I pretty good at it now