Turbo 182, where to go next?

colesy · Oct 6, 2024

I’m looking for opinions on where to go next with my low boost 182, today it’s done the gearbox again (was rebuilt 2 years 5 track days ago) it’s built with a gripper diff, and I really don’t want to spend another £1k on it, plus the time pulling it out etc
So that leads me to the question where next?
O2M swap? They feel crap and it puts me off
NDO swap? Would need an engine build and chassis leg notch custom shafts?
K20 swap? Very spendy but would love the scratch the vtec itch.
I really love the car, I don’t mind spending money on it if it’s worthwhile, and i’ll be able to do most things especially in the next couple of months when I’m in a unit with my own ramp.
Just wondering 1) what other people would do and 2) if anyone has any first hand experience of the above!
Cheers

Advikaz · Oct 6, 2024

K20 would have my vote

Poopensharten · Oct 6, 2024

I’ve always said that between the two EP3’s i had and the 8 RS Clio’s i owned the best combination of the chassis of the Mk2/3 Clio and the brilliance of the K20 is the ultimate hot hatch. They can make 250bhp and still retain the reliability of n/a.

I would k20 it. It’ll be an expensive outing but its probably the most reliable inline 4 cylinder available.

colesy · Oct 6, 2024

I’m glad others think a k20 is the way to go as well! I have no timeline so it could take a year if needed, as long as when I drive it hard it’s reliable when it’s done.

Krarl · Oct 6, 2024

I've always thought about putting a K20 into mine tbh

Then again, I can barely be fucked putting cams in the c**t

Poopensharten · Oct 6, 2024

colesy said:
I’m glad others think a k20 is the way to go as well! I have no timeline so it could take a year if needed, as long as when I drive it hard it’s reliable when it’s done.

I’d imagine as its been done a few times now you’ll have plenty of folk to lean on with it. I’m sure i seen the figure of 7-8k banded about fully converted which for the car you would have is pretty good!

colesy · Oct 6, 2024

Poopensharten said:
I’d imagine as its been done a few times now you’ll have plenty of folk to lean on with it. I’m sure i seen the figure of 7-8k banded about fully converted which for the car you would have is pretty good!

Definitely, my car handles brilliantly now but is just let down by the slightly flaky drive train so with a Honda I think it would be fantastic.
What gearbox does a kswap use, ep3?

Poopensharten · Oct 6, 2024

Aye i believe it is the EP3 box and engine together

colesy · Oct 6, 2024

Time to phone custom production to get some parts 🤣

charltjr · Oct 7, 2024

That’s a dream combination, best hot hatch drivetrain plus best hot hatch chassis. What’s not to like.

andybond · Oct 7, 2024

I would personally look to gearbox swap to something a bit more robust.

Are there any sequential options or dog box?

T3gav · Oct 7, 2024

If you're used to the turbo power I'd fit a K24A and the VTC gear and cams from the K20/DC5, 200lbft and 260bhp ish without having to take the head off. K24's are also fairly cheap.

npt · Oct 7, 2024

Sell it and buy a megane 😂

colesy · Oct 7, 2024

npt said:
Sell it and buy a megane 😂

We’ve already got a 265 😂

colesy · Oct 7, 2024

andybond said:
I would personally look to gearbox swap to something a bit more robust.

Are there any sequential options or dog box?

I’m not sure to be honest, I imagine a dog box or sequential would be really spendy!

andybond · Oct 7, 2024

colesy said:
I’m not sure to be honest, I imagine a dog box or sequential would be really spendy!

Less spend I suspect than doing a k20 properly.

colesy · Oct 7, 2024

andybond said:
Less spend I suspect than doing a k20 properly.

Very good point. When I get some time I need to research every option I have. I just have a vtec itch but equally I really do love the boosted F4R

Brigsy · Oct 7, 2024

andybond said:
Less spend I suspect than doing a k20 properly.

£8-10k easy for a sequential or dog box. No cheap option sadly.

Id go k20, few basic mods and 250hp. Be spot on, road or track.

andybond · Oct 7, 2024

Brigsy said:
£8-10k easy for a sequential or dog box. No cheap option sadly.

Id go k20, few basic mods and 250hp. Be spot on, road or track.

I can’t see a k20 setup being less to do it right tbh but I take your point - not cheap.

Thinking a k2x setup though might be the same..

Engine + rebuild
Box
ECU
Loom
Custom mounts
Etc.

Brigsy · Oct 7, 2024

andybond said:
I can’t see a k20 setup being less to do it right tbh but I take your point - not cheap.

Thinking a k2x setup though might be the same..

Engine + rebuild
Box
ECU
Loom
Custom mounts
Etc.

Wouldnt bother rebuilding a k lump id just stick it in, stock engine and box on ecumaster on the custom production fitting kit

Probably similar dollar but be fast and reliable with loads of potential to tune.

Dog or sequential are high maintenance stuff, main problem will be finding a sequential that can handle the turbo torque.

Yarp · Oct 7, 2024

I’m all ears to a more reliable gearbox solution 🤣. I think mine lasted around 2000 miles.

Sequential/dog box sounds great on paper but cost is phenomenal and they need serious maintenance. A mate used to have one in his nova track car and it made the most amazing noise ever and the shifts were incredible but it seemed like he changed the oil after every drive and stripped/rebuilt it every few months. The whole engine and block pulled out the front on his so it was fairly easy, it’s not going to be that easy on the Clio! He was probably over cautious but being ££££ in his approach was always better safe than sorry.

I reckon you could D.I.whyaye a K swap. Can’t be that hard. Parts bin some mounts and send it 👍

andybond · Oct 7, 2024

Brigsy said:
finding a sequential that can handle the turbo torque.

Sadev ST82-17.

Only know about that one as I am after one

andybond · Oct 7, 2024

The whole sequential / maintence thing is true , but can be mitigated to an extent by using a competent TCU instead of igniton/spark cut. Things like geartronic sit inbetween the ECU and the box and intercept the signals and do it "right"

npt · Oct 7, 2024

Just put another box in and go again, might last a few years

andybond · Oct 7, 2024

npt said:
Just put another box in and go again, might last a few years

That’s a sensible idea.

Are you new here? 😉

Advikaz · Oct 7, 2024

I’ll leave this here

NorthloopCup · Oct 8, 2024

Just to put some information out there regarding sadev sequentials and also dog boxes, they generally aren’t that bad. But it’s worth noting that to drive a dog box is an extremely different experience to pretty much any other gearbox!

With a dog box, you use the clutch to pull away. Then after that you just merrily go through the gears just without using the clutch on up/downshifts. But there’s a nack to it as you have to lift off the throttle momentarily, then select the gear you want, before banging your foot back on the throttle. Then, when you miss the shift you have to use the clutch ideally and hope and pray you don’t do a lot of damage to the dog teeth! When they’re worn, it’ll jump out of gear and you’ll need lube for the repair bill.

Sadev sequentials on the other hand are actually quite reliable. But one thing I’ve seen with sadev is this - when it goes in for a rebuild, they’ll carpet bomb it for pretty much every component. That’ll leave you with a big bill and a sore arse. Having had one brought to me for a second opinion after said carpet bombing routine, I found that the majority of components, whilst worn, were not yet at the point of requiring replacement. So it went again, and went on to complete several more seasons of hard use before it needed parts.

TLDR:

Dog boxes are ok if you can use one.
Sequential boxes are ok if you don’t get them serviced by someone who will carpet bomb repair them. 😂

andybond · Oct 8, 2024

NorthloopCup said:
Just to put some information out there regarding sadev sequentials and also dog boxes, they generally aren’t that bad. But it’s worth noting that to drive a dog box is an extremely different experience to pretty much any other gearbox!

With a dog box, you use the clutch to pull away. Then after that you just merrily go through the gears just without using the clutch on up/downshifts. But there’s a nack to it as you have to lift off the throttle momentarily, then select the gear you want, before banging your foot back on the throttle. Then, when you miss the shift you have to use the clutch ideally and hope and pray you don’t do a lot of damage to the dog teeth! When they’re worn, it’ll jump out of gear and you’ll need lube for the repair bill.

Sadev sequentials on the other hand are actually quite reliable. But one thing I’ve seen with sadev is this - when it goes in for a rebuild, they’ll carpet bomb it for pretty much every component. That’ll leave you with a big bill and a sore arse. Having had one brought to me for a second opinion after said carpet bombing routine, I found that the majority of components, whilst worn, were not yet at the point of requiring replacement. So it went again, and went on to complete several more seasons of hard use before it needed parts.

TLDR:

Dog boxes are ok if you can use one.
Sequential boxes are ok if you don’t get them serviced by someone who will carpet bomb repair them. 😂

What what I can see of Sadev you or me can also buy individual components so could buy a spring , a single gear or a seal.

Yarp · Oct 8, 2024

npt said:
Just put another box in and go again, might last a few years

I like this approach tbh.

It’s the most cost effective effective by far. Assuming your diff is ok you could swap that into the new box. Ask @NorthloopCup nicely to do a rebuild and you’ve got a fresh gearbox. Do what I do and keep a spare in stock and you’re laughing.

NorthloopCup · Oct 8, 2024

andybond said:
What what I can see of Sadev you or me can also buy individual components so could buy a spring , a single gear or a seal.

Yes you can. But a lot of people send them to sadev for servicing as well for whatever reason.

DaveL485 · Oct 14, 2024

Whats failed on the current box? Can that failure mode be corrected?

Too much power? Or are you flat shifting it? Whats gone wrong?

colesy · Oct 15, 2024

DaveL485 said:
Whats failed on the current box? Can that failure mode be corrected?

Too much power? Or are you flat shifting it? Whats gone wrong?

Something internal again, sounds like it’s grinding itself away!
It’s 248bhp 233 ftlb so I think I’m just on the edge with a jc5! Hence wanting to go in another direction with the car.
Love the boost, but also it is nice to drive an N/A 172/182 as Renault did know what they were doing not using forced induction 😂

I’d love to do a back to back with my 172 cup race car that’s 182hp and the 182 turbo to see how much quicker it really is. Suspension wise they’re exactly the same, both on AST same setup polybushed etc

Another thought I’ve had is just building up the spare F4R I have in the garage with some cams and itbs. Lots of ideas to chew through but nothing will be happening until I’ve moved into my unit as all my money will be going into that.

NorthloopCup · Oct 15, 2024

I’d imagine you’ve broken it because you’re using the torque on track rather than the revs. I’ve seen jc5’s running more power and torque than you have without issue - because they’ve used the revs.

But when it’s easy to use the torque from a boosted motor, I totally get the reason why people do.

colesy · Oct 15, 2024

NorthloopCup said:
I’d imagine you’ve broken it because you’re using the torque on track rather than the revs. I’ve seen jc5’s running more power and torque than you have without issue - because they’ve used the revs.

But when it’s easy to use the torque from a boosted motor, I totally get the reason why people do.

Yeah you could right there, you do get a bit more reliant on the torque.
Since I’ve now had it mapped properly (KTR did a shite job when they installed the Gen90) it’s now probably actually making the correct power/torque figures.
Still annoying though it’s literally done:
2x 20 min sessions brands hatch
2x 15 min sessions donington
4x 20 min sessions castle Combe
Dyno session
3x 20 min sessions castle Combe.
And 40 road miles.

But anyway it is what it is, whatever happens it’ll be fixed eventually 😃

NorthloopCup · Oct 15, 2024

colesy said:
Yeah you could right there, you do get a bit more reliant on the torque.
Since I’ve now had it mapped properly (KTR did a shite job when they installed the Gen90) it’s now probably actually making the correct power/torque figures.
Still annoying though it’s literally done:
2x 20 min sessions brands hatch
2x 15 min sessions donington
4x 20 min sessions castle Combe
Dyno session
3x 20 min sessions castle Combe.
And 40 road miles.

But anyway it is what it is, whatever happens it’ll be fixed eventually 😃

I’m happy to look at the box mate if you wanted. 👍🏻

Yarp · Oct 15, 2024

NorthloopCup said:
I’d imagine you’ve broken it because you’re using the torque on track rather than the revs. I’ve seen jc5’s running more power and torque than you have without issue - because they’ve used the revs.

But when it’s easy to use the torque from a boosted motor, I totally get the reason why people do.

The nice torque from the turbo is addictive though. I’d read a few build threads and decided to go with the gt28 over the gt25 so it boosted a bit later and encouraged me to rev it more than just plant it from no revs.

To be fair, it has worked swimmingly as the box itself is absolutely fine, it’s just the diff that’s had a catastrophic failure 😂

Brigsy · Oct 15, 2024

NorthloopCup said:
I’d imagine you’ve broken it because you’re using the torque on track rather than the revs. I’ve seen jc5’s running more power and torque than you have without issue - because they’ve used the revs.

But when it’s easy to use the torque from a boosted motor, I totally get the reason why people do.

Bang on, id bet its the low down torque hurting them fast. I run similar power through my jb3 with the 1.4gtt engine, and it has less low down torque and needs loads of rpm in comparison to f4r to make the power and gearboxes seem to last a reasonable amount of time. Ive still blew a couple up however.

I wonder if twingo jr5 box is worth the mods to fit in place of jc. @Adey. ran 300/300 through his for ages with no issues. Only downside is lsd options are limited.

NorthloopCup · Oct 15, 2024

Brigsy said:
Bang on, id bet its the low down torque hurting them fast. I run similar power through my jb3 with the 1.4gtt engine, and it has less low down torque and needs loads of rpm in comparison to f4r to make the power and gearboxes seem to last a reasonable amount of time. Ive still blew a couple up however.

I wonder if twingo jr5 box is worth the mods to fit in place of jc. @Adey. ran 300/300 through his for ages with no issues. Only downside is lsd options are limited.

It is 100% the low down torque that’s doing the damage mate. I had one in a few months back that had decided to call time on life. I asked if it went bang when it was at low down rpm and he was using the torque - yes was the answer. No teeth left on 5th gear was the end result and a box full of metal bits 😂 Unfortunately, the casing also took one for the team and split in between the bearings which sit under 5th gear.

A lsd is always going to increase the loads through the box as well though.

Yarp · Oct 16, 2024

Brigsy said:
Bang on, id bet its the low down torque hurting them fast. I run similar power through my jb3 with the 1.4gtt engine, and it has less low down torque and needs loads of rpm in comparison to f4r to make the power and gearboxes seem to last a reasonable amount of time. Ive still blew a couple up however.

I wonder if twingo jr5 box is worth the mods to fit in place of jc. @Adey. ran 300/300 through his for ages with no issues. Only downside is lsd options are limited.

That’s a good point. In the vids he posted he wasn’t exactly forgiving with it either 😂.

Twingo/clio have a lot of similarities so it must physically fit. All depends on whether the box mounts to the block without having to tap a load of new bolt holes.

Brigsy · Oct 16, 2024

Yarp said:
That’s a good point. In the vids he posted he wasn’t exactly forgiving with it either 😂.

Twingo/clio have a lot of similarities so it must physically fit. All depends on whether the box mounts to the block without having to tap a load of new bolt holes.

Unsure of the bolt pattern, be interesting to see if its somewhere near. There is a possibility as i think Adey used a 172 sump?

Also cable shift and hydraulic clutch from memory. Kangoo dci hydraulic pedal box would solve clutch issue and fit twingo shifter. Clutch and shafts to sort.

Turbo 182, where to go next?

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